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All classes should have a grab

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Nexius, Jan 10, 2019.

  1. Nexius

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    Grab is the strongest cc in the game currently with no real counter aside from RNG. i-frames can help you AVOID them but not all classes movement/i-frames are created equal. i-frames behave similarly with every other cc in the game so in this regards it's simply just a universal rule to the trial and process of securing kills and in such a case grabs are advantaged in not being exclusively countered. With that being said all classes should have a grab similar to how all classes were updated to have a block. It allows for a more fair opportunity cost across the board and makes things less complicated when balancing around it. It would also equalize and make more fair very one sided matchups that currently exist in the game (Witch vs Warrior immediately comes to mind). The grabs wouldnt be the best one could offer however. simply a decent standard, quick, average range with no protection on it, on a moderate CD ( something like 9 seconds or so). Thoughts?
     
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  2. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    Uhm. Musa/Maehwa and Sorc with grabs would be a special new level of hell.

    Witch could get one but I dont think they would like losing damage like Wizards who pay for their grab with their damage.
     
  3. GamePois0n

    GamePois0n PootyPoot Ranger 61 NA

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    zerkers can only initiate with a grapple after the cc change
     
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  4. PancakeRift

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    I wouldnt hate on a counter grab option that all classes have. If you think a grab is gonna come you use a skill that does no damage but CC's your target if they grab allowing you to combo from it.

    The balance for this is if you use this counter and no grab is thrown out, you get punished with an animation lock no longer than a stiffen. Allowing the opponent to CC you with anything but a grab if they are fast enough.

    I got this idea from Killer Instincts fighting mechanics. I think it could have some value and add depth to the game's combat. Though im sure im not seeing a glaring issue at this point.

    I'm a stroker main and the fact I just hold W, grab and axe kick my targets throat to win is kind of silly if im being honest.
     
  5. PancakeRift

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    But no, not all classes should have a grab. That would be OPAF. Musa would be god tier. No question about it.
     
  6. Tiamatis

    Tiamatis Musa 62 EU

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    My opinion give them a cc that ignores sa or fg with around 20sec cd that will make them stronger but not broken like striker or ninja in 1v1
     
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  7. Nexius

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    After playing this game for many years I think it's highly unlikely the game is balanced around these concepts, after the first few months of launch/awakening. If anything balance changes spanning over the course of over a year and a half would indicate classes retaining "unique" aspects and lacking others for the sake of balance is an outdated balance philosophy for the devs. To them more is better, which is fine as long as everyone gets more.

    Not a zerker main but from what I've experienced pvping zerkers almost everyday and other assorted classes they benefit from the range of cc's just as anyone else. By your logic a sorc cannot initiate without a grab and seeing as we dont have any initiations would be impossible. Every cc available in the game is an opportunity to initiate engage. Mileage varies with user, take that as you will. Not feeling the need to argue over class semantics, not sure if you're a vexed zerker main or not.

    I think a counter would be interesting but again, thats only keeping classes with a grab a step above the rest and giving a slight nod to those without. The idea behind my thought process in all honesty isnt that classes such as ninja and striker are a problem for grabless classes due to thier grab. No its more similar to the philosophy to give a block to every class. Most if not all classes have access to some sort of medium range/long range ability, or can put themselves in an advantageous position where not having a block could be seen as a severe weakness and glaring flaw. Thus making the experience of PvP somewhat frustrating. Adding a block to everyone improved QoL and didnt negatively impact anyone overall.

    Similarly to how there is push back to give all classes a grab, there was similar arguments to withhold block from many classes. Why give block to a wizard or a zerker, classes who are already safe when using SA and with enough AP can use that as deterrence or protection? The push back is mostly predicated on another layer of difficulty added to a specific microcosm of matchups, rather than looking at it objectively from the entire roster as a whole. essentially I dont want this class being more of a hassle to 1v1 in my personal experience, therefore we shouldnt do it.

    Which I personally find wholeheartedly contradictory because what the argument basically devolves into is that you dont want any single class to be difficult for you (not you specifically). As you point out whats any less frustrating about a striker, mystic, ninja, or kuno moving towards you in the fashions they do, that are just as effective if not more than any sorc, musa/maewha moving and just grabbing you because there is no counterplay? Give counter grab to everyone but not grab? Well all this does is give an extra option for those already at an advantage another option against each other. So they stay a step above the rest in a significant way. Whereas a much simpler option is to just add a grab to everyone lacking.

    It doesnt give respect to personal issues of not being able cope with another classes valid strengths which are indeed shared by all classes; but rather gives an option to everyone, getting us closer to an even playing field overall without having to sacrifice uniqueness. I dont think grabs make any classes more unique than another, it's just an effective answer to SA/block, which isnt exclusive to any type or one class. This is why I think it's valid to give everyone a grab, its one less mechanic that needlessly blocks out fair and satisfying play for both parties. The less mechanics in the game that say "this guy wins and you don't just cause" the better. If PvP in this game continues to become more homogenized it will make it more healthy overall, with the key differences being what flavor a player prefers and of course pacing. Some classes are easier and less punishing than others due to animations, cast speeds, etc. Which is fine and gives enough variance as is, none of which gate or restrict other classes negatively. They just add flavor.

    However if we continue to justify really loose and biased "rules" about how PvP should be balanced that just keep classes within subsects of tiers due to which have more relevant inabilities/advantages over others, they game will continue to just be Flavor of the month to a large degree. I dont mind if some classes are slghtly better than others in specific scenarios due to unique mechanics, such as grinding speed; but in PvP especially the system should be as homogenized as possible, with variance not negatively impacting most others as a whole. Lets not forget the cc changes almost a year ago were made due to grab classes having a massive advantage over non grab classes, this still exists, it never went away. Grab classes merely became more vulnerable to cc's everyone has, giving everyone a grab would further balance that. If a musa, maewha and sorc shouldnt have a grab, nor should any class that can stay elusive or protected for an extended period of time. But to say that would be to invalidate most if not all current classes. Giving everyone a grab just makes the game more modern.
     
    #7 Nexius, Jan 10, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  8. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    i anything, we need less grabs and less iframes. or we need some classes nerfed in damage where they cant delete you in 1 second.
     
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  9. Nexius

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    If you have any gear dying in "1 second" isnt a thing, even someone at softcap dp with decent HP. Removing the possibility of dying in a string of a few abilities would make fights unnecessarily long as well and wouldnt make sense ultimately. You'd end up in a world where this inst enough damage, where DP sources are abundant, inherent classes being more tanky than others due to innate HP pools, inherent defense or otherwise. Players wouldn't die, nodewars would stalemate much more often without more participants being involved, same would go for sieges. More players needed to kill means more lag.

    This is why many people chalk up wanting a less bursty game to inexperienced players. If all you know is dying in a matter of moments because you havent cultivated decent gear/sufficient proficiency to stay out of danger relatively, your dream scenario would be that being able to be deleted would never be possible. You'd be able to roam freely without the headache. While I understand to an extent it's pretty unhealthy. No one should want a super tank meta. I think adding slightly more base HP/more hp soruces from gear/crystals would suffice. More HP requires more gear to burn through a rather healthy character. Currently having around 3khp means you're too squishy.
     
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  10. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    seems we have way different experiences of pvp.
    sometimes my char dies before actually hitting the floor (geared maehwas/musas/ninjas just to give example). and that is something my class cannot do to others due to slow cast times and long windups.

    u r a sorc right? might explain survivability from your perspective.
     
  11. Nexius

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    What class do you play?
     
  12. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    Wizard, obviously. softcap DP. and yes, geared people melt me through SAs. (hell even that lousy FG that we have)
     
  13. Nexius

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    Played Softcap Witch for quite a while, I also have 294 dp. Not sure what your HP pool/crystals are. I almost never get killed in 1 second tho.
     
  14. Kauni

    Kauni 62 EU

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    That sounds before rs got removed. If wiz/witch is not pen armor geared or somewhat evaison stacked, then he will get pretty much 2 clicked by 269+ ap.
     
  15. Nexius

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    And? Theres enough stats in the game to get tanky and still do damage well below 253 vs someone who is just stacking AP and has 294 dp. I fail to see the issue where players with a lot of AP do more damage.... Players well below 253AP can already nearly one combo a softcap dp player, why shouldnt someone with 30+ AP 2-3 tap players? 294 dp isnt a lot of dp, its never been I think people forget this too often. For not having to sacrifice any AP to have that DP, yes it's quite a comfortable DP to sit at, but thats been this way for 2+ years? A lot in the game has changed, damage being more efficient as one of the primary factors. Nonetheless I dont want to derail this thread. This is about grabs, not softcap Dp and AP scaling.
     
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  16. Kauni

    Kauni 62 EU

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    Well... because thats 60+ less dr.
    There is and in the end game this is also how people build. You talked about 294 dp tho.
    Yes one combo. Some classes like ninja do 2 click people already with soft cap. Also I am pretty sure nobody wants a one shot fiesta.
    Well like some people already noticed, a class that can spam fully protected movement (sorc, musa, maehwa..) should not have a grab, that would be some next level opness meanwhile classes with grab already like kuno will automatically become weaker.
    I do understand your idea but it would require so much more balancing than just adding 1 skill to everyone.
     
  17. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    you advocate giving grabs to everyone, while those classes that dont have them dont need them in the slightest (well, maybe witch could have one crappy one)
     
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  18. Fearless V

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    If every class gets a grab than every class should get at least 2 or 3 complete 100% Invincibility Frames. Than we can start to call it a day.
     
  19. Mido

    Mido 62 EU

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    Musa/maehwa with a grab would be the most OP class in the history of BDO.
     
  20. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Mystic 61 NA

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    Giving all classes grab would be insanely silly. A witch won’t gain much from a grab. They have long enough cast animations that many melee classes can dash in and grab before the cast goes off. And the cast generally can’t even be cancelled.


    A musa or sorc with grab would be crazy scary. These are mobile classes that are hard to hit as is. They pick when the engage against most classes. Given them grab would make them broken OP.


    Yes, grabs in general are problematic. No grab classes are at a disadvantage, especially with lower APs (under 253-269 or so depending). But adding grab as a fix won’t be fix the issues. Unless you let a witch cancel a cast with grab or something because the problem with the class is not the lack of grab in 1v1, but the long cast times where you can get grabbed during (only a 1v1 or very small scale pvp issue).
     
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