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Archer nerf - another arrow to the knee

Discussion in 'Archer' started by SweetsDealer, Aug 4, 2019.

  1. Kauni

    Kauni Archer 63 EU

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    Don't people usually say "the bigger the better" for everything? :^)
     
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  2. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    I leveled the archer to 60 during its release event to get the rewards and then tried a trial in BA for like a day and it was so so easy. Mechanically, it isn't difficult. Sure it takes a little bit of combat experience because you have to learn what to do in certain situations and there will always be archers who get quite good at managing cooldowns, stamina, position etc. However all of that exists on other classes. In terms of skill floor the only classes I'd say have a lower skill floor are wizard/witch/striker/mystic and maybe lahn. In terms of skill cap the only classes I'd say have a lower skill cap are witch/wizard and its a stretch but maybe striker/mystic. And your suggestion of me making a trial character wouldn't really prove anything but I'd be down to try it for fun, I can say one thing though. If I had to bet on who would win, someone who just started warrior or just started archer I'd place my money on the archer hands down. I'm not trying to flame the class for low skill floor/cap. I don't think there's anything wrong with that actually. Its just that imo, archer waaay outperforms for its skill floor/cap.
     
  3. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    I'll just make a numbered list for this in order of your responses.
    1. I've said it at least 3 times now... Q buff and zerker need a nerf, I dont know what else you want me to say... Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF Q BUFF AND ZERKER NEED A NERF
    2. I'm no master of the class and certainly not a master of playing it, but I have a pretty decent understanding of their strategies and skills. I know most of whats protected and what CCs etc. The reason I believe you can damage/CC from a range without risk of getting CCd is because most classes don't have a way to pressure you at range at all and even fewer have a protected ranged way to pressure. And with the high damage archer has it doesn't take much to do a lot of damage while staying either a fairly safe distance away or being in protection. I do however agree that he doesn't have a ton of skills with insane range but even still, getting hit when you arent even in render distance is ridiculous to me. I don't really have an issue with the range, damage protection, low skill/floor cap INDIVIDUALLY, but all together leaves a bad taste.
    3. Yes the melee protection (considering the rest of the class of course) is disgusting. Like I said, archer has more melee SA than I do as a warrior... I know many non grab classes think that as soon as you're in range of our grab no matter the circumstances you are dead but that really isn't it. There are a lot of reasons why that isn't always true. Desync/Grab cooldown/"Dodging" the grab/Resist/Getting CCd or even killed out of grab/FG breaking at close range causing us to stagger backwards like a knockback, this happens a lot with the spear of slyvia and radiant explosion, FG breaks, we stagger back, you zephyrs leap away without us being able to grab are some of the reasons it's not so simple. And to be honest, yes I do think archer should be relatively unprotected while in melee range. I don't see why a ranged class needs to be protected in close range, they should have some protection yes but not more than melee classes :p they way you said it made it seem like you want archer to be able to do everything which is exactly what it is and what my original post tried to outline. And about movement, my movement as a warrior is a rotation of unprotection while praying and small segments of being protected.
    4. About archers damage you're simply wrong. If only you knew...
    5. We agree about that part then but I don't play valk but know some people who do and apparently they have the same issues with block as warrior. And let's say for the sake of argument that you are right and that you have to use all your long long range skills to break their block, ok now they have no block. Valk has roughly 3-4 super armor skills (melee class btw) now they have to try to catch you without being able to block or use forward guard skills... see what I'm getting at here?
    6. I'm talking in part about warrior but warrior isn't the only class with these issues. This goes back to what I was saying about grab not being a "press E and win 4head" also what about non grab classes? Also lahn is busted af, nothing at all like what a true melee class is or should be. And supposedly dont striker/mystic lose the archer matchup oddly and witch/wiz can actually win the archer matchup xD
    7. I shouldn't need to E buff to balance things out. And if we are both full buffed, even with E buff I'll still only end up with 40ish% resistance. And what happens if we BOTH pop awakening buff. I move a bit faster and have a bit more resistance but now YOU are doing insane damage to me. You can do your ranged skills without charging, you get 100% crit chance, you get +15% critical hit damage, down attack damage, and back attack damage. When an archer Q buffs its a RIP me.
    8. I don't see why you think gaping darkness is bad, maybe there are just better things for that situation but if I had that in my kit I'd definitely use it so much. a Forward guard melee stiff seems pretty valuable to me and I guess it could be a risk but if you know they messed up their grab or something you could slip behind them and try it.
    9. Again lahn is busted, but yeah I know what you mean kinda. The closest thing warrior has to that is charging thrust which is technically FG but it doesn't work, its been reported to them as a bug but hasn't been changed, theres pretty much a huge gap, like for the first half of the movement you are FG but for the entire second half you are unprotected and its one of the few skills we can't cancel out of and if we accidentally run into you with it we are put into another unprotected animation which can't be cancelled. Thats just warrior though and I get what you mean about some classes like musa/maewha which cn run you down pretty fast or witch/wiz TP, lahn flying etc.
    10. I don't know where you got that from, but from what I've seen, most guilds have high priority for archers and I definitely see why. They have a lot of utility from my perspective.
    11. I'm from NA
     
  4. Kauni

    Kauni Archer 63 EU

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    It's fine you don't need to repeat it. I just keep mentioning it because what you seem to dislike is zerker, not archer :^)

    I can't think of any game that has a melee class being able to pressure a range class at range. If you think about it, archer has no protected range damage combo aka the risk is there at range. Who can CC archer at that point at range? DK, Zerker, Musa, Maehwa (m&m slightly less than max range but way more than mid range), Wizard, Witch, Ranger, Sorc at that's max range, so basically 8 out of 18 classes. At mid range you could add Warrior, Valk, Ninja.
    That does not sound like "most", does it? :-P

    Here it's one skill that does hit, charged luthraghon's call. It works only on flat ground tho and I'd be fine to "nerf" that charged range it would not change anything for archers tbh.

    Most NA archers play melee from what I saw on yt. Idk why people struggle against that. If I am lucky and find an archer on EU who is not refusing duelling and they try to play melee, they just get stomped. But I am talking about experienced PvP tbh, not casuals. My argument is not really good here tho because our experienced archers don't play melee vs experienced PvP people for obvious reseaons.

    Yes, nowdays it's true. Warriors protection is bit under tuned compared to the perma protected he had back in the days with lingering SA... which was broken af btw :^)

    Hmm... that's new. I never heared of anyone that he has issues to grab archer during spear of sylvia. I can't really comment on that because spear of sylvia vs grab class = dead archer pretty much.

    Sure if nobody has protected movement then, why not :^)
    Otherwise I don't see why it's balanced to move protected to a range class that is not allowed to escape.

    I never asked for grab or iframe spamm and I also didn't ask for "typical" movement. Like I am fine that my skills have "decent" CDs AND stamina costs while I have to rotate different skills for that movement. Which is not the case for all classes.
    I do agree that warriors movement is quite bad compared to other classes. Warriors lingering SA got removed and they didn't re-design the movement properly. It's an warrior issue being bad designed in movement compared to other classes. Has actually nothing to do with archer if you think about it.

    Oh I do know :^) A 316 DP musa has a 50% chance to survive my range combo in a KD.
    But here a small clip vs a striker. Not all our duels looked like that but this one was a good example for a lot of things... archer is strikes hard counter btw:
    https://streamable.com/g6jn2

    Keep in mind you can't compare him to NA strikers like Joe or FakeUniform (I just know only this 2 guys, no clue if there are better strikers sry) because this strikers are quite unexperienced compared to this guy. This striker stomped a 281 AP archer later. The 281 AP archer was not able to land a CC because a good striker can simply stay 99% of the fight fully protected and the AP is not enough to kill him without a CC.

    I had a small conversation with a NA valk about that. He calimed like his blocks gets deleted in 1-2 skills. Later he said that he asked his archer friend who apparently did it and there was a little bit of "miscommunication" between them :^) He basically admited that it was not true.
    A valk has hard time to get archer without awk buff. But then again an archer has pretty much 0% chance to win if valk pops awk buff. Not a good design for both players ngl.
    If we talk about something outside of BA, like Arena of Arsha (or any OW area with trees, rocks, buildings, fences etc) for exmaple then an experienced valk has more than a decent chance to win against an archer. Especially on NA vs the melee archers :^)

    Non grab melee classes? Like musa?
    https://streamable.com/6l2cu

    In theory I could link a clip of every class who can easily kill an archer. We have this exceptional situations on EU as well where you see how an archer snipses someone from range and melts them, yes but in general an archer on EU means a free kill. I drop a discord conversation screenshot.
    I agree with the E buff but it's still a part of the game and can't be ignored. If both pop the awk buff then it means your window got even bigger for CC with the spear. Yes you will take damage but archer is even more vulnerable to range CC. But then again, why not just going behind a tree or any object and wait? What forces you to run in his face during his Q buff?
    Archer has no range back attack damage and crit chance is for us as useful as for warriors btw :^)

    Hm.. well because it's just bad...^^ Idk how to explain that tbh... I mean anything is just so much better than that. It can only be "good" in PvE because of it's skill addons but I'd call it bad even there because you wasted too much time using it and the benefit is just meh.
    Why would I try to melee stiffen you after you failed your grab? If I really want to go melee there I just float and combo you instead. Usually I'd just CC you on my way getting distance and kill you from range.

    Btw I got a fun story here. A lot of warriors say there is some gap in that skill. A friend of mine who is warrior main returned a while ago (he quitted by now already tho...) on his warrior and had literally no practice for months and never fought an archer, was fighting me. That was PRE archer nerfs... I CCd him in that fg dash skill like 2-3 times out of ~40 duels? And that only because I shot piercing light (s+e) 3x charged with the aoe BEHIND him.
    I asked him why he has no gap there... He just answered "what gap?"

    We barely have archers on EU and nobody is really looking for them. iirc we got one siege guild with the "most" archers which is 4. Zerker is just much superior and easier to play :^) That's why I asked if you are from NA or EU.

    Just curious, from 1 to 10 where 10 is very skilled, what is Choice (the zerker) on NA in your opinion?
     
    #104 Kauni, Sep 2, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2019
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  5. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    How do you split up the quote like that? That seems a lot more convenient lol than the block then my numbers lol. And yes I do dislike a lot of things about zerker. Zerker/Musa/Witch/Wiz/Archer/Mystic/Lahn are the main classes I really dislike.
    1. Yes some classes have 1-2 ranged skills but that is not most classes. Excluding witch/wiz/ranger/DK which are also primarily ranged classes, the classes that have 1-2 ranged skills are Warrior, Musa, Maewha, Zerker, Sorc, Valk, and Ninja. Thats 6 out of 18. 1 in 3 classes have 1-2 skills that have range. 100% of archers have numerous strong melee skills (loool) and they also have a strong ranged kit along with their melee skills. I don't think there's an issue with melee classes having 1-2 skills with medium range that they can use especially since on most classes those 1-2 ranged skills are quite high. Yes, I am all for a charged luths call range nerf. It sucks when you are somewhat far away and they get to just charge it and you're too far to get near them before it finishes charging and there's nowhere to hide. It's also SO bad in group pvp where a legion of like 5 archers are charging it then just fire it into you and your group and destroy you lol.

    2. I'm not entirely sure how to explain it but I guess one way to explain it would be shouldn't zerker be better than all melee classes because he has a higher grab range than the others (except lahn) so as soon as they get near him it's an easy grab for him and he has 4 grabs!! However Zerker isnt the strongest 1v1 melee class though. It isn't just as soon as they are kinda near you you can easily get to them and grab. I know specifically for warrior one very common issue trying to get an archer is block lock where say you are near me but just not close enough to grab and I use shield charge my forward guard movement skill that puts you in block afterwards then I will do that to get closer to you but then as soon as the skill ends if you're doing radiant explosion or spear of slyvia it means I can't do anything and I'm stuck in my block with very limited ways to escape it until your skill finishes and while I'm block locked ive been getting pushed backwards by your skill so then you are out of grab range again, my block is nearly destroyed, and now you zephyrs leap away.

    3. I still think its more than just warrior being unprotected. I don't think archer is ridiculously OP (like lahn D:<) I just think its a bit too overtuned and it ranging from mediocre to extremely good in all areas makes it worthy of a nerf. I personally think the simplest way for them to do that would be a blanket damage nerf. Nothing crazy but just scale it back a bit like as a rough guess off the top of my head maybe reduce his damage by like ~25% for PvP and PvE but also maybe give him some higher accuracy modifiers like instead of his +5% and +10% accuracy modifiers stuff like +15-25% modifiers on some skills (come to think of it that would kind of make sense since archers are supposed to have precision and stuff, I kinda wonder why their passive isnt +10% accuracy rather than MS shrug) If they don't decide to go that route though I think that if they simply removed stiffness from meteor dive and piercing cry, and nerfed the PvE slightly then archer would be much more balanced. 3 and 5 second cooldown super armor stiffness that can CC through forward guard is just too much.

    4. No you don't know >.< all my fights with archers start me at 50-60 block durability unless they open with RMB then if they land their hits im at like 70. Then once the fight truly starts and we are chasing and kiting my block is between 0-20 for most of the fight. It's surprising because the archers really underestimate how much damage they've done to my block which lets me get away with some risky things. I think striker is way too tanky as well, that's more so an issue with striker than archer. You were damaging him for almost the entire fight and CCd him a few times and got off quick combos but in the end none of it killed him but as soon as he grabbed you he did 1 skill and did 70% of your HP. Btw I wouldn't be opposed to archer being made a bit tankier. Maybe if they added a skill that would give you +20DP or a +9% evasion rate buff on a skill and idk if this already exists but if they put good addons on good skills. So like they gave options to put +20 defense and +5% evasion rate addon on commonly used skills for you. I honestly would enjoy fights with archers more if they were tankier and if I were tankier and its not just them killing me without even CCing me and me killing them by using a few melee damage skills on them. A lot of the problems with the game imo could be resolved by giving everyone more DR and scaling back evasion on some classes but thats sort of another topic X_X

    5. I would say block does get destroyed very quickly. It isn't always just you do 2 skills and kill the block its more just that archers obviously don't just do luths call and piercing light then just sit in S block and wait for CD to end, they do other skills and chain attacks to keep up CC/Damage pressure. For main skills alone it would probably take 3-4 to break block if I have all my DP buffs up. That goes down though because you do other things while not doing main attacks but because of overall high damage on archer it adds up.

    6. Idek wtf happened in that musa clip, he like teleported behind you and then you were instantly ccd and killed. No clue what that was lmao. I have also seen musas get completely destroyed by archers though since they can't catch the archerbefore dying to damage. As mentioned earlier in this response, removing the stiffness from piercing cry/meteor dive seems like a fair way to balance their melee and potentially decrease the stamina cost of both those skills by 50.

    7. Resistance doesn't really help much at all, I would never do things that are unprotected when a CC is coming and just hope my RNG on resist covers it. Its more like you play the same then if you mess up you have a 40% chance to not get fvcked because of it. And you're right, I didn't realize how many archer skills really don't benefit from the increased crit rate. However the damage spike is still very noticeable and them being able to insta cast abilities is quite difficult playing around assuming you dont have a rock to hide behind.

    8. Ahh I see, yeah I suppose there are probably other things that an archer could do that are better than just throwing out a chance at a stiffen like getting range or doing spear/radiant explosion on them i guess.

    9. There is a gap in the skill you just sort of have to know where it is. The way the skill works is that it is broken up into 2 different skills. Charging thrust and double charging thrust. The first charging thrust is protected but once it goes into the second part it becomes unprotected and theres a huge hole. It's sort of easy to not notice if you don't know it and take advantage of it/have it taken advantage of on you. Overall while most times I get CCd out of it I think the archer was just trying to throw out some CCs and damage not actually it the gap the gap does exist.

    10. Huh weird, zerkers are high priority on NA too but I think in mot top guilds as long as you meet the guild reqs, attend wars, are a decently skilled player, and dont go like 0-50 on kill sheet most guilds will recruit you regardless of class. Obviously favoring people on better classes when there is limited room.

    11. I really have no clue, I don't watch Choice. I don't remember him being known as insanely skilled or anything, the only zerkers I know of that are seen as really good by the community are RedZerk and Inflict. The only streamers I really watched were some small ones awhile ago and Hands when/if he streams.
     
  6. Kauni

    Kauni Archer 63 EU

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    Actually it's just shift + e (full bloom which is stupid, I agree) and s + f (uproot) meanwhile uproot does actually kinda low damage alone, it's more the combination of it with a range skill. Shift + lmb (radiant explosion) does actually low damage and shift + q (spear of sylvia) which does a lot of damage but that's most of the time a free kill considering how many classes have a grab.
    I think archer should have like 2 (max 3) decent melee skills to not be absolutely useless if it comes to melee for whatever reason but the full bloom damage is absurd and should not be a thing in PvP. (we do need its damage in PvE tho)
    Ye I agree here, even tho we don't have 5 archers on one side in our NWs/Sieges (and rarely this perfect flat terrain scenario) :D

    Well that's because zerker has no iframe anymore like back in the days. Usually a good zerker would grab like that nowadays:
    https://clips.twitch.tv/QuaintStylishTurnipSaltBae
    It's just a skill level that most players do not have. Zerker is an insane class on high player skill level but can also be facerolled with Q buff and ult only.

    That sounds actually fun lol^^
    I mean besides the fact that using any of this skills is pretty much the worst choice I am kinda sure there must be something on warrior to avoid that. Would that work if I re-create that scenario without warrior charing? Like he blocks -> I do spear of sylvia -> he tries to grab? Would that be the same? Cause I could ask a warrior to test it with me and see what can be done here.

    Hmm... It's hard to tell but I think it's a bad idea for the endgame. Like I saw a friend of mine who is a good archer as well with 286 AP fighting a 324 DP (really good) witch. He can't pressure her, she is just too tanky and he can't kill her without landing a CC and a good witch will rarely let an archer land a CC.
    Not sure if you saw the clip of me fighting a 324 DP striker. Without a CC I'd need ~289-293+ to kill him with constant pressure if I don't get a CC. But then again... he can get 347+ DP and then idk how it would look like there.
    So if we reduce the damage and remove the ability to CC through block with meteor dive which is a high risk already because of going melee.... then how is archer supposed to win a 1vs1? No pressure vs blocks, lower damage in general and no ability to CC someone unless HE (the opponent) fails. That does not really sound to me like a good design^^ Kinda would need something in return... but what?

    Imo that's really just warrior block issue. Should have at least same block like valk, actually even stronger, like way stronger. With lingering SA the "bad block" was reasonable combined with warriors combos, slow and fastest grab in game. Now it isn't and should be definitely changed.
    Archer relies on the pressure vs blocks because we have no grab and we should actually stay at range and be able to kill people at range while building up pressure over time.

    No... please don't make archers tankier! I'd even remove archers S-Block... imo archer should not be able to backpaddle and block just because he fails his movement rotation... and archers tankyness is actually "fine" we should just not getting one shot at "decent" DP through SA (unless it's something like tamer ult). I guess here we could fix that with damage reduction on SA skills like for wizard/witch. Archer should be quite squishy by nature imo.

    Atm I am at 310 DP, in that clip I was at 309. The musa just did his 50% BSR below the belt. SA protected 8sec CD skill. Archer does well vs musa but at my DP bracket a 285 AP bad musa can easily win 50/50 vs a good archer just because of the classes design. I'd need more AP and DP here to "fix" that matchup. 281 AP is still doable and skill decides here most of the time.

    Musa matchup is a good example here. Although a high AP faceroll musa would never go for a dragon bite attempt he still would use his shift + f. Meteor dive is the only skill to counter his dragon bite and shift + f. Otherwise a musa could literally easily faceroll an archer.
    Reducing stamina costs wouldn't do anything. An archer has no stamina issues with the right build if played correctly.

    Resistance do help a lot actually, it's just rng. At the last 1vs1 BSL with trial characters I lost to a ... well let's say not a necessarily good... sorc. She simply resisted everything even tho she failed a lot and spammed 2 unproteccted CC spells in my meteor dive and CCd me through its SA.
    On mains I fought slimshadii (the best 1vs1 EU sorc). We had sadly only 4 duels, I won 3 times in a row and the last match he literally ran through the entire BA and killed me at some point. He didn't want to fight me anymore after that :-) Was live on stream.

    Ye that is usually how I win vs warriors. I did the same vs my mate but there it just didn't work... maybe servers been bad that day or something idk. Sadly he quitted too fast to have a rematch :-(

    In my last siege guild we had like ~10 Zerkers^^ They've been usually not top fragging (first 3) but they clearly created situations why the fight got turned. Like ulting 10 people, perma CC the entire engage etc...
    Archer atm has only the piercing light that has an aoe CC and could stop a push. Luthraghons call is not bad as well but worse than piercing light and none of these skills is somewhat close to zerkers Q buff^^

    Ye I thought so... When I saw Choice the phrase "geared monkey" suddenly made so much more sense. RedZerk and Reespo are/were indeed the best zerkers I knew on EU. Inflict doesn't ring a bell tbh.

    Screenshot :-P
     

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  7. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    Interesting. After you mentioned it I just went to BA with an archer to test it and it seems like something may have changed. I know for certain before warriors couldn't grab out of block lock but when I just went to BA now I was able to grab during block lock but not do other skills. There wasn't anything about it in patchnotes anytime in the past few months so maybe it was something that they changes that caused it but not sure. I was also unable to do some other skills meaning spear of sylvia should still be block locking me. Pretty interesting, ill have to try it out some more but if warrior really can now grab out of block lock that will be beneficial in so many situations, mostly against witch/wiz that we block in front of X_X
    Also after thinking about other classes I think I sort of forgot that there are a lot of other classes equally as "broken" and quite a few are even more broken. Not really any point in me crying on here about archer when there are like 5 other classes more broken :/
    I think it sort of hit me when I was looking at the poll I made about most balanced classes and for a second I considered putting down archer as one of my 3 LOL. The other options were either underpowered or overpowered. In the end I still think archer is a bit too strong mostly when you also include his PvE potential but then again you have zerkers and lahns who can do that good in PvE too, you have witches who have more ranged damage than archers thats also AoE with way more super armor and somehow with an even lower skill floor + heals and an iframe that lets them reset any situation or get straight into the center of a ball to bomb them all with her protected AoEs. So go back to shooting those weird poles at everyone in rbf while we cry on forums -.-
     
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  8. Kauni

    Kauni Archer 63 EU

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    @Distaken
    Not sure if you saw that but warrior is gonna become more tankier with succession skills, will have SA grab and some protected dmg+cc spells. If it's good and how it's gonna be compared to other classes no idea...

     
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  9. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    Ah yeah I ahd seen a bit of that. What it looks like is this new succession warrior *may* be a bit better for largescale. The only issues with it rn is that we lose our only iframe, all of our good movement has hard cooldowns meaning we cant use it while on cooldown, we can't animation cancel skills with succession, and we lose super armor skills like grave digging and slashing the dead and don't get any actual new skills to compensate just SA thrown onto a few skills. The one thing about it though is that apparently the damage is disgusting. Like you can literally 2 skill people with it. To me it seems like a more dumbed down warrior but if they make some tweaks to it I think it has potential. I already know the entire community is going to hate warrior for getting it first and call it OP though ;-;
     

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