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Brainstorming: Expanding Valkyrie’s capabilities

Discussion in 'Valkyrie' started by Netreiam, Aug 29, 2018.

  1. Netreiam

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    So this is in a similar vein to the “make frontline mean something thread” but expanding the focus to tanking/support in general so if a mod wants to merge that into this one go ahead.

    Anyway, we all know by now what valk needs to be upgraded from dead class to barely functional. And we all would be more than willing to trade an ult nerf (within reason) and vacuum nerf in the process.

    But what changes could make Valkyrie a more unique asset in group settings.

    To me, Valkyrie is supposed to be an active defense (she is only really tanky w/shield up) tank with support capabilities and a primarily single target, counter-offensive (responding to enemy movements rather than initiating) attack style.

    So, the goal to make valk able to survive multiple enemies and protect allies without making it brain dead easy to the point that she becomes invincible with little effort.

    So a few guidelines:
    1. Try to be specific, give details like duration, rough %s, and cooldowns
    2. If it is an entirely new skill what does it replace?
    3. Create limitations and leave room for abilities to be countered in some way.

    So, let’s start:

    Resistance added to FGs

    Surrounded defense bonus, counter stances

    Shield auras

    Chargeable skills using shield gauge
    Purificatione: Purificatione returns 5 points of shield gauge per enemy hit. Purificatione also gains the ability to be charged. Can sacrifice up to 20 points (1.5~2s charge time) to increase damage by 20%, range and healing power by 50%, and double the amount shield gauge points returned.

    AP/DP scaling changes

    Class overhaul

    If you have any ideas or want to expand upon existing ones leave a post and I will add it to this one.
     
    #1 Netreiam, Aug 29, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2018
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  2. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

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    To make tank builds viable, they just need to have a fair trade off at the point where you get negated AP by going for DP. For instance https://bdoplanner.com/ErdalDivinusToscani Max dp for a full ap build is 315. So at 316+ there should be a better trade off for losing so much AP. Or lower ap scaling to balance.

    Tvvin shot me some good ideas before that goes pretty much with what you're saying, what he sent me.

    "My idea to give every character three variations distinguishable by offhands

    -Support (bad duelist features/ weak mage damage)
    -Duelist (bad utility)
    -Default (no special abilities but slightly toned down everything for everyone)

    I also wanted Protect Area to be chain-able only 2 per 5 minutes. So the quality of PA is more important than multiple PA spam. This makes Wiz & Witch less mandatory support while still giving them theoption to trash their support to be a regular duelist like some want


    My next support suggestion was for Valk and Warrior to be tanks. In this varation , their forward guards are reworked to not be penetrated by cc and it becomes WAY durable from the front VS high AP targets. but they still can be flanked for counter balance. There are more tank skills in the tank tree but this is the highlight of my idea

    [​IMG]


    now, I know what you might be thinking'' twin you mad man'' but this skill is designed for support warior or valk :D this varation is focused on more tanking than actual fights (towershield offhand)

    while duelist valk is focused more on being agile with some tanking . (buckler /small shield offhand)

    default valk is what you love and know now :D (medium shield offhand/ normal)"
     
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  3. Netreiam

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    Lol he actually goes a lot further. Not only is he reworking the skill system as a whole into a tree/spec system, but also including all new weapons. Very ambitious but also interesting. I will put it in the original post but honestly I feel like this deserves its own thread. Also, we can’t see the image.
     
  4. ODB3698

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    I don't want to tank anything for anybody. That was one of the selling points of this game...the trinity does not exist here. I don't want to give PA any excuse to neuter my class...with the excuse of "you're a tank". I don't want to end up unable to solo grind because my damage output has been lowered to non existence...because I'm a tank now. I quit the last game that decided my class could only be a tank and they just deleted any non tank skills to try and force tanking...I would really rather not have a repeat of that, especially since I've invested money into this game. This game really isn't designed around tanking or healing. The only time grouping is even beneficial is node/siege...and you can't force players into attacking a specific target instead of juicy back liners waiting to be one shot.

    That being said, I obviously do like ideas presented for heaven's echo being a passive aura...as you quoted me suggesting it :p

    The concept of being able to charge up an ability for added effect might be nice, I think catastigma suggested something like that in a post.

    At the end of the day though, I don't want to be forced into a role. I don't want to be limited in how I can play. I think tanking is a failed concept in anything that isn't scripted PvE content. I don't mind the damage mitigation versus damage avoidance schemes in this game. These games are always going to prioritize damage output over survival, as too much focus on survival creates unkillable characters...which is boring.
     
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  5. Netreiam

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    I actually like class roles because it gives some variety and makes classes unique. If everybody can do everything, why play one class over the other?

    That said, I don’t intend for valk to become a stereotypical tank or to be forced into a role if they don’t want it. This is more of an expanding of options if anything. Most of the current suggestions towards tanking revolve around mass pvp. Things like a skill that increases DP and reduces attack in relation to number of enemies nearby wouldn’t do anything in 1v1 and even in small scale and mass pvp you could just NOT use the skill.

    Part of the reason I ask for limitations and inherent counters is so that the tankiness doesn’t force valk to receive damage nerfs to balance her 1v1 or make her unkillable in mass.
     
  6. Tvvin

    Tvvin Ninja 62

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    Omg you posted that LOL I was still working on a rough draft XD


    Thank for your compliment lol


    Mmm if your comment is towards my idea.

    My offhand idea doesn't forces you to be anything tbh. It just amplifies what you want to be. This idea was aimmed towards balancing the game while making witch / wiz less mandatory through some other pa tweeks. Yet not making them irrelevant.

    -Tower Shield (support tree)
    Drastically improved tank.aimmmed towards frontlining


    -Default Shield (offensive tree)
    Improved offensive shield user. Not as Frontline but better offensive abilities
     
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  7. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

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    Lol sorry man, when it comes to creating roles for BDO, its one of the best suggestions I've heard. Plus skill tree wise, I could see it being made into an offhand skill tree. So kinda of like how skill add ons are but for an offhand. So I had to share, meh bad, should've just tagged you to toss it in. xD
     
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  8. Zimtiah

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    I like Valk like she is, yes we are a bit slow and run out of stamina, our grab is crap and the lost of superarmor is very hard, but sorry guy I do not want to be a Tank, wtf, in BDO there is no classic tank healer dd crap like in most of the games, you Play according your gear. And at the Moment AP is Meta so there is no tank anyway. So changing to this world of warcraft skilltrees you may just go to that game instead bringing this into this one.
     
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  9. Tvvin

    Tvvin Ninja 62

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    Lemme break down your post and offer my final thoughts. I'll make some words bold purely so you can keep up.

    ''I do not want to be a Tank,wtf ''
    I... Don't think you've read my idea if that's your conclusion.



    ''in BDO there is no classic tank healer dd crap like in most of the games, you Play according your gear. And at the Moment AP is Meta so there is no tank anyway.''

    Valkyrie cannot tank. Therefor its not really possible to play according to your gear in endgame. Thats why my suggestion amplifies Valkyire the option to be a real tank or offensive focus through different offhands. Keyword : option




    ''So changing to this world of warcraft skilltrees you may just go to that game instead bringing this into this one''
    Ah so you did read some. But you cherry picked a post then proceeded to attempt to insult me by telling me to play another game.




    My conclusion : Your post is deadfeed back. Not because you don't agree with my idea - but because you choose to ignore my idea with some logic my idea takes into consideration. You're not forced into a tank.Never were. You're simply given the option via offhand changes. Or choose to use your current default shield to be more offensive. This gives far more space to give Valkyrie reasonable buffs per skill tree without people complaining. I'm all for logical conversations towards important matters and i welcome being debunked for logical reasons to refine my ideas. however if you're going to troll or be intentionally toxic, this will be my last response towards you. have a good day.
     
  10. Mjollnir

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    In BDO there's no canonical tank, that's sure, every class can get the very same damage mitigation, block should come in then, for Valks and Warriors, but it's outshined by iframes, and actually locks us in place. Aside this, they forgot to scale block durability when they boosted APs, but ppl haven't realized it cuz most of the valks out there are running a 310 DP build.

    Our block durability should be proportional to our DR, this used to be true, after Renown I'm not sure anymore, but can as well be just a matter of AP scaling way better, without peeking at the code can't really say.

    I run 400+ DP (mostly DR) when doing PvP, usual stuff, TET Boss (Uru+Griffon), TET Kite, TRI Cadry, TET Rhutum Belt, TRI Manos Ruby Earrings, and a TRI Bensho (Actually since there's no pure DR necklace I was thinking about switching to TET Ancient Seal and TET Weapon Core to exploit some renown DR, but won't change much).

    DR % from renown stops around 350 DP, after that, probably is better to invest in APs (Earrings and Neck being the most sacrificable DP accessories).

    Remove renown, would help, give back DR/DP some meaning, but they will never do it, what we may hope is at least a tweak on it (like making it give DR or AP, but not both), still this won't solve anything, too much difference in effect scaling, and this is an old problem.

    Maybe with a decent passive (not the crap we get in pre-awakening), we may end up a bit more resisting, but there's the risk it will make AP valks way too OP.

    Regarding Aggro Control - a tank must also master that, I guess there's nothing to say, no real need to perform aggro control, not even on bosses. We have a single aggro amplification skill, but even spamming it won't prevent some dumb glass cannon APe to steal aggro, lucky them, they won't die, if geared enough....

    Meh, not a good game to play the tank :D
     
    #10 Mjollnir, Aug 30, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  11. Zimtiah

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    I read your Idea now a 2nd time and my opinion is that I do not share your idea, maybe I did wrote some strange things you do not understand to summon it up again:

    I do not Need an offhand that decides who I am, I need a rebalance patch that fixes some hardcore messed up crap **** that they called Balance. I do not want to be OP I want to be balanced, but this what in this posting is discussed sounds for me like a redesign of a class, I m fine with my class I just Need three little things to be fixed thats all, as I said

    1. more mobility / maybe other superarmor Rotation then now, but please I m so ****ing sick of the I m out of Stamina even when I grind, I can not hit a good Rotation because I m out of Stamina, not even to speak of PVP. I did in the past year up to 6 times a week nodewar and after that Balance patch I did not enjoy that anymore.

    2. more PVE DMG, and here mostly in the area of AP 1-220 as the first group here we need a better scaling increase and then up to 239 (with TET Kutum) another one a bit lower but after 240 we are fine in pve. But to reach there with a Valk is like wtf. I watched my friends grind with the very same gear score, Zerker, Sorc, Wiz/witch and I m like a snail compared to them on spots like ronaros, manshaum, Aakman, Hystria ....
    3. Grab, sorry but I know endless Story, but warrior and zerker got a free -30% grab resistance for free, with 2 gems they got -50% almost each grab hits if you do not stack resi Plus our grab got no range at all.

    and as Bonus Change our one shot ult, because I m sick of the valk op ult **** talk, I would gladly give away our stupid one shot ult, the only Thing you can do is make Videos while oneshotting 8 People, community thinks valk is OP since years because of this ****ed up ult.

    and you say Valk can not tank? have you ever played Valk? ofc we have an AOE taunt that can actually fix even bosses to you, Ive tanked bosses, scrollbosses or in the Rift the bosses here without any Problem over years now, just hit space and Q you tank the others spank. I do not Need here any update at all in PVE all good in Group Play, but there is not much Group Play in this game left.

    and I did not insulted you, you give some ideas in this posting and I just said, nope I would not like to Play that class like that, that opinion is allowed isn t it?

    so Feedback posting, here is my Feedback to how to be a balanced tank:

    - improve grab
    - more pve dmg
    - fix mobility

    and everything Comes with a price pay with
    - nerf ult

    valk will never die!
     
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  12. BOoMBoOM_REMIX

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    How to balance a tank nothing more easy nerf ap scaling, renown score. Buff initial class stats health / DP . But they can't do that because it will kill the only endgame content they have and the P2W . Of course they would need to tweak some skills .
     
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  13. Kyraios

    Kyraios Sagaris Valkyrie NA

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    easy fixes to make valkyrie viable:

    Return Lingering Super Armor (this will fix almost all of valkyrie's problems right now)

    OR

    Return SA to celestial Spear

    Iframe to DLC and cd lowered to 2 seconds

    give full iframe to sanctitas de enslar instead of partial Iframe

    remove cc on promptness give it super armor

    return stun to purificatione and remove ally heal
     
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  14. Netreiam

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    This is a pretty delayed answer to this topic but here is my general thoughts to those disagreeing with this topic.

    This isn’t about just being “viable” but giving valk a purpose in large/mid scale conflicts outside of “damage dealing class #93529 + occasional suction and heal/pa” those changes would make valk more competitive 1v1 (which don’t get me wrong I want as well) but although I don’t believe the whole “this game isn’t balanced around 1v1, only nodewar matters” bull, this game is group pvp heavy.

    Right now, valk doesn’t have a real role in battles outside 1v1, we aren’t assassins, we aren’t disrupters, we aren’t flankers, and we definitely aren’t nuke masters. We aren’t even proper damage dealers because we lack both AoE and protection required to use skills without insta CC lock. At best we are auxiliary everything. Heal, CC, damage, PA. At worse we are almost completely useless.

    valk depends on allies going first and covering her in order to get anything done large scale when honestly it should be the opposite. Not saying that she needs to be a 1 man army, but that in large scale she should be able to help set the conditions for a successful push by empowering her allies.

    Purificatione is the best example of this. It’s short range, so it requires you to be in the **** with your ally fighting together, and it also heals more if you hit an enemy and an ally in close proximity meaning that you get the highest benefit being right in the enemy forces’ faces helping your ally get back up/survive a little longer if they are faltering.

    This is my personal view so understand that what other players want from valk isn’t what I want, but at the same time, it’s kind of silly to play a class that’s signature trait is a shield and be focused only on its offensive capabilities, isn’t it?





    Something I would really like is buffing the Rabam heal to the same range as heavens echo and adding super armor to it. While I would also like a cooldown reduction back to 40s, I feel it would be fair if they buffed the DP bonus to 35. The 57 Rabam buff also needs to be completely reworked.
     
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  15. Bnplay

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    Valk is worked as intend. slow pace style fighting walking dashing, by the time you reach your group everyone is dead so it's your job to guide them to Valhalla because you sir also end up being dead.
     
  16. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

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    I just wish they'd revert DLC back to pre-renown (Super Armor and used SP instead of stamina), put SA on Promptness (take the CC away) like these are needed imo. Would fix her stamina/mobility issues, could help with doing combos, gives her more survivability/keeps her from being almost pure forward guard, It'd just fix a bunch of shiet.
     
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  17. Tvvin

    Tvvin Ninja 62

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    Wouldn't that make her faster than Musa?
     
  18. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

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    Pre-renown DLC had a shorter range and slight delay inbetween dashes. But pretty sure its echo walk that made them as fast as musas, which was nerfed, but valks can still do it though. Its just echo walk is buggy af, after the nerf its not really useful, and shouldn't be considered a dash. You literally hold q + spacebar while slamming the hotkey for heavens echo and hope you don't get CC'd/insa killed/hope the game works with you instead of making you stand there like an idiot. So it'd make the normal old school valk dash usable again.
    Echo walk -
    Old School dash-
     
  19. Spartakatz

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    that would help a lot, and not too much asked. those posts that ask for 30 buffs for about every single skill you can imagine, are too far from reality and will not be considered by devs, 100% sure.
     
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  20. Netreiam

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    Updated main post.
    - Added resistance FG
    - updated counter stances
    - updated change shield scaling

    I remember seeing the idea to add the resistance buff from Q to all FG skills somewhere in the forum so if someone knows the original post for that can you Quote it so I can give credit!
     

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