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Class balance and its "considerable improvement"

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Zahi, Aug 11, 2017.

  1. Zahi

    Zahi Tamer 60 EU

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    So i would like to show you something that bugged me since i first saw the korean K/D graphs and their "considerable improvements" in class balancing.
    Im sure im not the only one who asked themselves "What did they nerf or buff to achieve any improvement?" and of course the answer is basically nothing.
    So how come the numbers changed? Ppl got better with other classes? Nope, its actualy simple math, something Pearl Abyss dont really understand.

    First of all, what is K/D ratio? Kill / Death ratio is simply dividing number of kills by number of deaths of the ppl using specified class. There is always someone who die and always someone who gets the kill.
    Very simple. But there is one big flaw - if the specified class kills the same class it counts towards both kill and death.
    So what does this mean? Let me show you an example.

    Lets say there are equal number of all classes in game and wizzard kills them in equal numbers.

    Wizzard: lets say they killed 1000 ppl so around 71 ppl from each class including wizzards so we are already on 71 deaths + deaths from other classes, lets say each class kills wizzard 40 times = 520+71 = 591
    K/D ratio here is 1.69

    Now we all know there are not equal numbers of ppl playing each class, lets just overexaggerate and say 50% of ppl play wizzard and the other 50% is rest of classes

    Once again Wizzards kill 1000 ppl, but now 500 of them are wizzards themselves and 500 are rest of classes. 500 deaths already and since there are only 50% of other classes compared to before, lets just say they kill him only 20x each (i know this isnt correct math but for simplicity and as an example its accurate enough)

    500+260=760 deaths so thats 1.31 K/D ratio

    I think some of you know where im going now.

    Lets just be silly now and say there are 90% wizzards compared to other classes.

    1000 kills, 900 of them are wizzards other classes are basically nonexistent so they barely get killed by them, but lets say they killed them 50 times together = 950 deaths = 1.052 K/D ratio

    Balanced.

    (this also increases K/D ratio of "inferior" classes because they meet more of the other classes than their own)

    So point of all this is - if you only meet OP classes on battlefield, especially your own, your class K/D ratio decreases because for most of your own kills you contribute to your own deaths!

    I hope ppl at Pearl Abyss are patting themselves on their backs for how good work they did with balancing, little they know that K/D ratio decreased because EVERYONE REROLLED TO OP CLASSES!



    tl;dr : K/D ratio decreased because everyone rerolled to those classes and they basically meet only themselves, thus contributing to their own deaths with their kills

    (i know the math, numbers and so on isnt how it is in reality, but for example purposes its good enough)
     
    Chun-Chun, Granterino, Eray and 15 others like this.
  2. Judaism

    Judaism Theology Warrior 61 EU

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    Balancing the classes around sieges its absolutely retarded, there still are roles classes have. We also absolutely need nerfs, what a clowns.
     
  3. Korvgubben

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    Wizards used magic and then there was balance.
     
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  4. Rena

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    Is normal classes whit big AOE do more kills in pvp groups, for the most are ppls already damaged and they do last hit
     
  5. Claydough

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    dont they cancel themselves out?

    0+1-1=0?
     
  6. Korvgubben

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    Thats exactly why it gets closer to 1:1 the more % of total the op classes are :P
     
  7. irrelevant

    irrelevant Pixelstorm Tamer 62 EU

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    looking at kda and talking about balance is ****ing stupid anyway and if PA are for real with this they are even more incompetent than i thought

    zerker is under 1 kda and it's the best class in the game (after wizard and only cus wizard is easier to play and generally more op in mass pvp but other than that zerker is top at everything) it's just the most obvious proof at how flawed this whole kda ******** concept is
     
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  8. Claydough

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    it shouldnt move the average, but it will reduce the 'data sample size' as every death to its own class counts as a 0
     
  9. Claydough

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    +1

    every now and then lemon actually sits out some logical comments

    KDR is usless in a team and mass scale pvp game, and is made even worse by having very very specific roles that they play in that group content
     
  10. Zahi

    Zahi Tamer 60 EU

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    while i agree that the whole KDR is nonsense to begin with, i wanted to point out that even their calculations are as flawed as everything they do

    keep the posts going, because balance and lag/desync issues will be the grave of this game if they continue like this
     
  11. Decem

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    And Valks ? Thats another proof that KD doesnt matter because Valk are rare entity. Doesnt mean class is bad.
     
  12. Kurano

    Kurano Kurano Berserker 63 NA

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    Obviously... Ask all the top seige guilds what classes theyre looking for and what the % of different classes they currently have....

    /rolleyes
     
  13. WastedJoker

    WastedJoker Striker 61 EU

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    I haven't read into too close detail what they said but the guild conquest stats page shows "help" counters. Was that detailed in their charts?
     
  14. Zahi

    Zahi Tamer 60 EU

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    they call it K/D ratio so no, also it makes no sense to count "help" numbers because they are rewarded only for resurrecting players and repairing base (and i think there is something else i forgot) its not assist or anything
     
  15. Solsi

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    But what if PA dislikes the idea of roles in mass scale PvP lol? :O

    Maybe they want it simpler? Maybe they want all classes to be equally good at the same things? That's why their balancing classes around siege&nv KD data.

    As moronic as it sounds, it still wouldn't surprise me. Mainly because of the coming militia system with loads of pugs&casual players joining endgame PvP for fun. They sure as hell wont have specific role setups or play classes to their full potential with scouts, canon killers, tanks, grab machines and full buffs.

    More likely that those guys just derp around randomly pewpew stuff with red names, trying to get kills for fun. But in order for that to work and be a pleasant gaming experience for pugs&casuals, all classes needs to be equally effective at running around pewpew'ing getting kills.
     
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  16. zhagsten

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    Including mirror match-up K/D for class balance? Smart move, I would have never thought of that. Impressive work, Pearl Abyss.
     
  17. Code

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    Good post. I also scratched my head as to what they really did to "balance" the k/d ratio, because they really did nothing significant enough in terms of buffs/nerfs. The buffs they gave to classes like Maehwa and Kunoichi are nothing but quality of life improvements, but not a game changer.

    They should know way better than any of us, they designed the classes themselves, they know the base stats and overall stats of a geared character(which we can't, we can only see sheet AP/DP which is only a part of the total AP/DP, also the total accuracy&evasion), they know how much damage a class practically deals, YET they are actually clueless as to what to really tweak to bring a better balance.

    Answer is if they actually played the class extensively, they would know. It's an actual simple process to have the team that deals with class development and balance, to just designate a few days of in depth testing for each class of things like class survivability, damage output etc. However they don't have time to do so because it's not their priority due to them being too busy developing other classes(which is what I've been trying to point out several times, but blind community is blind).

    So instead of them taking the balancing matter into their hands fully, they rely on the player base to provide the data(read the GM Notes) in terms of feedback which is not the most accurate data ever really.
     
  18. PanpanTheGreat

    PanpanTheGreat Sorceress 61 EU

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    looking at K/D ratio ONLY for balance is totaly stupid and OP just shew one of the many reasons lol gg.
     
  19. Tentacle Love

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    What I thought was really dumb was that if the classes were "balanced" there would have to be more than just two with a KDA below 1. I mean, with the numbers they give, you'd have to accept that there are millions of ninjas and their KDA is 0.95, and every other class only has a few players, and those classes are only barely better than breaking even.
     
  20. SkullMonkey

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    @GM_Dew @CM_Praballo

    Could you please forward this post onto the PA developers. I think this post brings up a very important flaw in how Pearl Abyss is evaluating class balance.
     
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