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Collection for the Devs - A rallying call

Discussion in 'Tamer' started by Von_Blaumark, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. Von_Blaumark

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    Greetings fellow tamer players who are still left or hoping for a brighter future for the class.

    Having recently retired my tamer from active play after 2years and 5 months to play ninja instead which really doesn't satisfy me but keeps me from raging at least I said 'screw it. At least I can go and bug Kakao staff one more time about what's wrong here.' on July 14th.
    So GM_Caramel ignores me to this day.
    CM_Servantes was the first to even react after I sent a picture of my tamer crying bitter tears into the ocean.
    CM_Yukimura finally answered me with a wall of text equalling the one I hit him with.

    So he offered me a solution to make what members of other classes have put forward in the past - a compilation of information to pass on to the devs or QA team or whatever. I will comment on that later.
    Quoting CM_Yukimura here:
    "We always try to gather info from the forums and relative section, however, the main issue is the amount of non-constructive threads that address concerns without giving accurate details."
    That also includes threads that simply say "fix this".

    Again quoting him:

    "If you feel your class is really underwhelming under specific circumstances, you have two options to address your feedback:

    1. Highlight a thread sending it here via pm, that includes constructive feedback, short, clear and with all details, with good visibility if possible.
    2. Make a specific class report (also with other users) and link it here, with the same specifications as above."


    Recently a couple of postings in Bugs forum have actually warranted a response from staff which is nice to see. By all means keep that up in addition to contributing here. Also in suggestions forum where according to GM_Haliaeetus the threads with the most traction are investigated. Let's hope the few remaining tamers can even create traction.

    So please let's pool our resources and present what's keeping tamer players from enjoying the game both in PVE grinding and defending spots as well as medium to large scale pvp from GvG fights to sieges. A class should have a place in all of this in a balanced game.

    But I really suck at making/editing videos and providing the evidence we need in order to convince so please help me compile all this here.
    I would like each posting to stick to one single particular issue. Stay as precise as possible and as factual as possible. Include video clips where needed. Keep emotions and opinion out of this thread.

    Important note to the rest of the community: A lot of threads in these forums have previously been derailed by people stating that tamers just cry, that tamers are ok in 1v1, that we just want to get op so we can dunk on everybody and so on. This thread is not the place for it. I will open up a second thread where we can do the usual dance opinionating about everything posted here. Feel free to but leave this topic to the players who have something to say about their class.
    https://community.blackdesertonline...rallying-call-discussion-and-opinions.267360/

    I wanna start here by brainstorming a couple of the issues that I can think of on top of my head and will edit as necessary.

    • Cloud stomping/Flow: Cloud Ride issue - under investigation although for quite some time now
    • Super armor coverage on those skills that actually have SA left
    • Movement abilties, speed of chase and disengage and the chaining together of those (forward evasion ww as a prime example)
    • small attack range of abilities especially when combined with desync as experienced in nodewars
    • slow animations on many (formerly) good tamer abilities that make us telegraph and be vulnerable a lot
    • KR devs seem to view Cloud stomping as an engage while EU/NA players have used it as disengage. Change the specs?
    • a comprehensive comparison of e.g. ninja vs tamer (which shows some really big balancing differences in my opinion)
    • (to be expanded)
    Hoping for many good contributions. PM me if you have some editing ideas for this post. Or what further issues to adress.

    My commentary about this whole affair: This being the only way apparently that feedback can get attention sucks. We are being asked basically to do what should be the work - the paid work - of staff members, devs and playtesters. Instead after more than two years of game the players are still being used as glorified betatesters when all they want is a more or less working class balance. I resent that and I expect more from Pearl Abyss and Kakao in the future to ensure issues like these don't crop up in the first place.
    Sorry for the long post.

    Regards.
    Cent
     
    Tazmanyak, Abiffinnia, Rilok and 23 others like this.
  2. Von_Blaumark

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    Using this as a placeholder for a list of topics or issues that need attention. To be edited as needed. For easier reference.
     
  3. Assilma

    Assilma Tamer 63 EU

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    Thanks for doing this, I really hope something comes out of it.

    I absolutely share the feeling that Tamer is fundamentally lacking as a class in several areas of play, and in addition to being unbalanced, has lost a lot of what was fun about the class as well, particularly since around May 2018; notably after 1. CC effect changes, 2. renown system, and 3. after individual class "rework".

    I will try to outline what I consider to be the "core" problems. Although there are many other issues, the following are what I consider to be the least acceptable, and have the most negative impact on balance and general play. For reference, my focus throughout my entire post will be on "PVP Balance", especially in "high-end PVP", such as red battlefield, node wars and 1v1 at around 550+ gearscore level. Though one might have many things to say about Tamer's PVE, this will not be my concern here.

    1. Cloud Ride and Cloud Stomping are still genuinely bugged, and even when working correctly are not acceptable in their current state

    I have previously made a thread about this myself entitled "The Fate of Tamers" so I will mainly be summarising my own previous points here.

    These skills were absolutely class-defining skills of the Tamer's awakening. Cloud Ride is essential to disengaging from tricky situations, similar to the Wizard and Witch's teleport, Sorc's "nightmare" and so forth (all of which are Iframes). Considering that Tamer is a fully melee class, we are putting ourselves in greater danger than almost any other class by simply engaging with our offensive kit. Obviously we are at more risk than ranged classes, but we even put ourselves at more risk that other melee classes such as Warrior, Mystic and Striker, due to our comparatively low defenses. So, for a squishy melee class, it is absolutely essential to be able to properly disengage from fights.

    The current state of cloud stomping and cloud ride do not adequately permit this. This is due to several reasons:

    1. The change from Iframe to super armour applied to the skills during the individual class "reworks" means that in our cloud stomping and cloud ride animations, we now get "stuck" inside enemy pulling and vacuum effects.

    See links:

    https://i.gyazo.com/a1a2016c877a814c51d795cab102b918.mp4

    https://i.gyazo.com/53859477544e80a01d98a82190cbbde3.mp4

    2. this is additionally because the skill now "genuinely bugs out", again following the same changes, causing us to get the falling animation like when you jump off a cliff during the animation of the skill

    See link: https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/RadiantWhimsicalBarasingha

    Furthermore, Cloud Stomping specifically was highly valuable in 1v1 and other situations due to the fact that it allowed us to buy some time on other cooldowns by providing a window of invulnerability. This is now not the case, and the skill is highly risky in 1v1 situations particularly against grab classes, as we can be grabbed out of the long super armour animation.

    In the case of these two skills, I simply see no other solution than to revert both skills to I-frame form. They were essential parts of the Tamer's kit which cannot be done without, and in their current state they are almost unusable. In addition to significantly damaging our PVP balance, this has also made the class considerably "less fun", as soaring through the sky was one of the highlights of the enjoyment of the Tamer class, at least for me, and I'm sure for many others. It was also a very much hyped part of the original awakening trailer video for Tamer as well.

    Making the skills have CC effects again would not be necessary at this point, but I don't think these skills can ever be acceptable/usable as super armour. At the absolute minimum, the falling animation bug needs to be fixed.

    2. Lack of CC that fits well into the gameplay; CCs that we do have are not functionally useful

    Before I go into detail on this point, I would like to note that up until the recent CC changes, Tamer's gameplay "always" revolved around long extended chains of CC. This is not true of other classes. For example, Sorc in the past always relied on landing a dream of doom and following with violation > turn back slash, or some other such thing. Let's say a chain of 1 or 2 CCs. Tamer on the other hand, always relied on several extended CC combos in a row, such as (in the old system): moonlight strike > vermillion bird > all around spinner > grab > bolt > jolt > echo pierce. Or another example from pre-awakening: Fearful trembling > flash > pole thrust > stance shift > trample > all around spinner > grab > bolt > jolt > echo pierce. These CC chains follow the CC paths as follows:

    Stiffness > floating > grab

    and

    Stun > stiffness > bound > grab

    If you consider the fact that our combos were often used as a follow up to void lightning, you could get even longer chains like Stiffness > Stiffness > Stun > Floating > Grab, on for example, void > moonlight strike > azure dragon > garuda > spinner > grab > bolt jolt > echo.

    This was not 100% necessary for Tamer with a very high level of AP, say 250+ ap which can often kill with a simple knockdown or floating, but this type of gameplay was intrinsic to the class for the longest imagineable time, and the class was highly dependent and largely defined by this method of killing its targets. This meant that when the CC changes went live (not being able to chain more than 2 CC after one another, not being able to grab immediately following a knockdown and so forth), Tamer was "especially" hard hit compared to many other classes.

    This has been manageable for the absolutely highest AP tamers (I myself personally play with 261 ap right now, not something everyone can manage) but I really don't see how Tamers with lower AP can kill anything right now.

    Because we kept some CCs that can "on paper" chain into other CCs in our non-awakening, theoretically it should be manageable, but it's not. For example, fearful trembling is a super armour stun that can be follow by some damage, and then a grab, and more damage. Right, so we should have the tools for decent comboing there? Not really. This is because of how using fearful trembling fits into our general gameplay. In order to use fearful trembling, we must be on shortsword as it cannot be used even with quickslot from staff stance. This means we have to have been moving around on our shortsword prior to using it. The problem with this is that shortsword is highly un-safe for moving around when compared to the staff. This is because our "evasion" skill, "WW", is not properly protected in the same way for example Sorc's night crow is. In short, being on shortsword, enabling us to make use of our most effective CCs, puts us in a highly risky situation to begin with. And I don't mean risky in the sense that clever play can mitigate it. No, our WW is too random and unpredictable to allow any amount of play to make up for it. Spamming our WW is like rolling dice as to whether you will be CCd or not. I don't think any other class basic bread and butter ability is this unreliable and unhelpful.

    So we either need better CC tools on our awakening (super armour back on vermillion bird without removing the CC? -- maybe with increased cooldown?), (CC on moonlight strike without removing the SA??) or we need a more reliable pre-awakening mobility system to properly allow us to make use of the relatively viable CCs we have on our shortsword.

    3. Problems with "Magic Damage", and general squishiness

    I don't know if this issue has EVER been fully explained, but Tamers appear to take more damage from magical abilities than other classes. In red battlefield and node wars in particular, with huge amounts of magical AOE flying around (which we are forced to deal with because we must go into melee range), Tamers get absolutely shredded, and this is not helped by the fact that we appear to take more magical damage than other classes. I was even trying a 390 DP build vs. a 240 AP wizard in arena just yesterday and it provides such little mitigation it's insane. When I asked him, he guessed that my DP was more around 300 than 400, and he confirmed that I felt super squishy compared to basically any other class.

    In addition to "taking" more magical damage, the fact that we "deal" magical damage is a major hindrance. I understand that Mystics and Strikers were "allegedly" given their magical defense bonus to combat the wizard/witch/sorc meta in node wars, but tarring Tamers with the same brush in the same stroke here is absolutely not fair and the game became so much immensely less fun the moment these classes were introduced to the game. We need to either deal Melee damage like a ninja or musa, or the passive of Mystics and Strikers needs to be majorly toned down.

    So we have the twofold problem of taking more magic damage, while simultaneously dishing it out. This makes mass-pvp extremely unfair for Tamer players who are forced to engage point-blank with tonnes of magical AOE.

    ______________________________


    Thanks for taking the time to read this, these were what I consider to be the MAIN problems of Tamer gameplay right now. There are many more issues I would love to be solved, but these things are what I think are the worst, and holding us back and making the game way less fun than it should be. Yes I definitely left things out, and no doubt some mystics will come and say I need to l2p for my comments about magical damage, etc., but w/e I'm ready for it :D

    I truly hope people from Kakao/PA take notice of this. If you interviewed any Tamer who does high-end PVP right now, you would find they are similarly disheartened about the class. The entire Tamer community feels very sad and dejected and ignored because of the way things are, and the fact that things continue unchanged for so long has driven many people to quit the class and leave the game, and has sapped a lot of the fun from things. I myself feel very attached to my Tamer and will never reroll but playing her is such a heartbreaking experience at times I don't even want to play anymore, despite loving and tryharding this game ever since launch.

    I hope some devs will hear us out, pretty please ♥ best wishes everyone :)
     
    #3 Assilma, Jul 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2018
  4. Meldaza

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    i guess what @Assilma said couldn't be better, honestly all the points Assilma mentioned on the other thread is all that is needed to fix our class, it's not making us OP, but it sure is making us playable again for a certain point.

    The lack of ranged cc is somehow damaging our class too as our class is full melee, while others have somekind of ranged cc, what i do suggest is that to make us got the same kind of skill, change either Command: Attack or Howling.

    for example:

    Command: Attack (4s cd)
    - Revert it back to when the cooldown is like 10 seconds or up the cooldown to 15.
    - Then put a 100 stamina or 100 mana cost to the skill.
    - Give it stun or stiffness effect when exploding on good hits.

    and/or

    Heilang: Howling (40s cd, 100mp)
    - Decrease the cooldown from 40 seconds to 25 seconds.
    - Make the blink animation around 0.2 - 0.4 seconds faster after pointing the staff.
    - Or instead of the two points mention above, keep Howling at the same as they are now but with the inflicted stiffness counts as 2 stiffs like our Void Lightning CC trap, so that Tamers can get close to them before the quick stiffs runs out. (for example, Ninja's shuriken is homing + cc, then they can dash fast enough to the cc'ed players, same case for other homing ranged cc class, except our ranged ability is not homing and not last long enough for our low mobility)

    and simply make heilang attack whatever we attack and not wandering off like a normal mobs, that way the pets follow-up from Legendary Beast's Dance, Beast Rampage and Allround Spinner can actually deal a decent amount of damage. (in this case heilang is actually doing a decent job strictly in 1v1 Battle Arena, but not the case in the open field or Large-scale PVP since Heilang is just running back and forth without actually attacking, rendering the Heilang useless. Unlike witch/wizard that can utilize their awakening flow for their summons to deal a huge chunk of damage.)

    The patch where pet accuracy/damage is not there properly a month ago simply explains why we need a better Heilang AI. Witch/Wizard community literally in chaos when pet accuracy is bugged due to their awakening simply relies on their flow which counts as pet damage. That 3 or 4 weeks we only noticed a small difference in our playstyle because we simply doesn't rely on Heilang attacks anyway. But after the fix and they got their damage back, we still stay in the same spot because of one simple thing.

    Our Heilang combo follow-up simply doesn't hit enemy.

    the heilang teleports and combo, unlike witch or wizard flow, is heavily displaced most of the time except on 1v1 BA as mentioned above.

    or on the other case i noticed that heilang is treating another summoned skill as an hitting object as well, making Heilang, say 50% of the time is hitting Witch's Toxic Field, Kuno's Delighted Blast, or Sorc's Blade of Darkness, or if not hitting it, 60% the time they are running back and forth between the summoned beings to the enemy players without actually do anything and ignoring our commands or combos.

    i think this is all what i want to add-up to Assilma's assessment. Lastly, but is not necessary, we want SA on grab as well like other classes :D
     
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  5. Von_Blaumark

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    Time also to adress some basic structural issue in the setup of the class. Tamer's passive abilities.

    Fortune's Blessing: +50HP and +25LT

    What is that even supposed to accomplish? Since tamer is one of the least damage resistant classes in the game giving a 50HP passive which, let's be honest, doesn't do a thing when getting hit by a ninja, wizard or what-have-you feels like a slap in the face.

    The other passive. Wait. We don't have one.
    By comparison a Lv60 ninja gets the following passive bonuses: +1.75% accuracy, 7% evasion, +7 melee AP and 10% attack speed increase

    This is imbalance way out of proportion.

    Lastly Tamer is the only class in the game besides Wizard and Witch that doesn't have a downsmash. How can it be that a combo-focused class has never possessed a downsmash?
     
    #5 Von_Blaumark, Jul 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2018
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  6. jane7652

    jane7652 Tamer 61 NA

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    There really does need to be some passive bonus attached to the heilang levels, something like 5% movement and 5% attack speed at max level would be great. Heilang also needs to be brought up to par with other pets in general which would mean immunity to CC and damage as well as a higher resistance to water(him disappearing in the tiniest pools of water is really annoying). Imo I also think tamer could use some form of combat sustain, some DR on longer super armor skills(like what wiz/witch have), or hp per hit on longer high hit skills(like maybe all around spinner), or flat HP regen on one of the faster skills or two(maybe echo pierce changed to this) would all go a decent way to helping with sustain, but I would certainly take cloud stomp/ride protections back before these anyday. It would also be great if the devs could take another look at howling and increase the range at which we can use the attack command(currently tamer sits pretty wide open in order to get a proper chance to cast it) and either increase the CC potential over the course of the long animation or speed up the animation so it becomes a decent DPS ability closer to what some other classes like sorc have in their kits.
     
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  7. Weyfinder

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    I pretty much agree with everything Asslima said. The lack of cc flow with not having stiffness>float from losing it on Moonlight Strike is very telling in engages. For a class that has to be aggressive due to the extreme short range of abilities not being able to catch people very much limits our effectiveness.

    I think a skill like Trample having a downsmash only working after the CD like the bound effect would fit well. Kuno/Ninja has a skill called Floor Sweep which has a downsmash on a 6 second CD the same as Trample so it wouldn't be all that difference from that.

    Also massively increasing the cast speed/changing the animation on Command: Attack along with a stiffen effect would mean we could actually use Heilang properly in a combo. You can have it so Heilang appears next to you and jumps on the target if it is close and running to them like the current attack animation if they are far away so it balances out as a better short range skill.

    Here is hoping our suggestions and feedback is taken on board. We just want to have fun as a Tamer and some small changes would make a world of difference.
     
    Eri 4, JM and Assilma like this.
  8. Death_Grips

    Death_Grips Death_Grips Tamer 61

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    Another thing is that Leaves Dropping simply doesn't work sometimes when it should. This Bug is present since Awakening release and never actually got fixed. It is also very easy to reproduce by simply using Heilang: Berserk into Leaves Dropping as soon as possible. For me it fails every single time on this combination but Im sure there are more skill combinations that make it fail.

    Proof: https://gyazo.com/1b24fd4ea84884175857ad815d4b6244

    One more thing which is more of a QoL Improvement:

    Using LBP while running forward when our weapon isnt drawn results in two different states depending if were in shortsword or staff mode:

    Staff (Weapon stays drawn): https://gyazo.com/d5159b69a444c7d1faaa5413ea803f6c

    Shortsword (Weapon gets sheathed): https://gyazo.com/63a4dcf2d6d3f409c0b8a97af525244c
     
    #8 Death_Grips, Jul 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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  9. Assilma

    Assilma Tamer 63 EU

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    I maybe should also have stressed that not being able to use moonlight strike > vermillion bird as an engage anymore is probably one of the things that sucks most of the fun out for me. This was such a basic element of play before that not having it (because vermillion is unprotected) feels like someone has cut my hands off :/

    Do other tamers agree?
     
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  10. Faoiltiarna

    Faoiltiarna Tamer EU

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    Nice post brah o7

    Tbh the worst issue with tamer now is that we have no good engage (cc from moonlight is gone, u enagage and people manage to react before u cc) and no decent disengage (pole jump? might aswell unskill that).
    The nail to the coffin was the 2.0 cc cap which ****ed over all our combos completely - literally every single random pet stiffnes or even void lighting could make u unable to land 2x hard cc which is crucial. I don't know why this isn't getting buffed. We are not in the position to become OP from just cc fixes, we still lack burst compared to others and we still lack protected damage combos.

    Side note: they added actual use to Howling and then when u used this skill it worked 50% of time, when it didn't the pet simply stood where it was and activated skill there... so good.

    Our preawaken passives and awakening buff itself are a joke aswell... tbh if we wanted to complain and list all of the shitty designed skills that we won't need or that is severely underpowerd, we would take entire page for 1 post describing that...

    Also you said wiz doesnt have down smash?
    [​IMG]
     
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  11. Catastigma

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    Tamer is pretty squishy and have a big lack of utility during high scale, for parade this issue i will throw few change that can make the Tamer more revelant.

    First one is the utility skill Tamer have already absorb heilang but the cooldown is soo high 5m30 This is the time that a node wars lasts..
    i suggest to reduce this to 3m20

    Heilang: Howling. Add a pull like Wave of light of Valkyrie but less powerfull. the cooldown of this skill is already enough for balance this out.


    Also Tamer lack on extenting CC capacity cause of thier lack of down smash/air smash. ( pre-awakening one are unusable.) its one of the main lack that tamer player say to me.

    Flow: Full moon, Add a Down smash capacity.
    Flow: Soaking strike Add a Down smash capacity.
    Flow: Ascension Add a Air smash capacity.
    Rabam skill : Resonance, Add a Down smash capacity.

    Its my Feedback after 13h of testing on the global lab xd
    if this can create more debate/discuss about your classe.
    ---------------------------------------------------
    Few people on the tamer discord gived revelant issue about disengage/engage. We found something that could be interesting. Instead of this proud stomping cloud. why not this proud heilang?

    Add another Command for Heilang. Mounting. The tamer is instantly catch by heilang.+60 DP +50% movement speed and no stamina use on heilang for 15 sec, CD 30 sec. If you Q Heilang did a Void lightning with a reserved pull(throw people away) like Wave of light of valkyrie put inversed. if you do Roaming is a normal Pull.

    Another ideal of Support capacity: Heilang command Sit. change the 3 HP/sec buff for a 150 HP/sec buff. This would give a insane support capacity for a backliner.

    Use the feedback ticket on global lab guys. we have finaly a test server ! Any change will be on the test server before going to the live server now !
     
    #11 Catastigma, Jul 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2018
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  12. jane7652

    jane7652 Tamer 61 NA

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    I like most of this except the mounting command. The devs have almost never given a class a new skill(and definitely not one that's this involved) when other classes weren't due to get some as well, rather they've tweaked existing ones and from dev perspective it would be much easier to simply just give cloud stomping and cloud ride iframe than add a new skill and it would basically accomplish the same thing except it doesn't have to rely on a summon which is already finicky to interact with(think of delay between player action and heilang actions).
     
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  13. Lenerlink

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    I would like a total re-work of heilang AI. Right now his AI is nothing more than a normal mob that follows either you or your target to the last location they were at .5-1.5 secs ago. Server lag (witch NA/EU servers have major issue with) can make him bug out, not attack, late on follow ups, or not even stay summon if the issue bad enough. I dont keep heilang in attack mode any more because it allows me to use follow ups of pre-awaken mobs of hielang with little to no trouble... till he stops obeying orders and just stops moving and just teleports to me when i move, or starts to chase the enemy, even though hes not in attack mode, ignores all my pre-awaken follow up orders till either i call him back or he reaches the enemy, does nothing, then walks back to me . Many issues dealing with fighting in large groups makes heilang half useless due to the fact that even if he is not in aggro mode if any attack from any direction at all touches him any follow up you do will result in him trying to attack towards the person that last attacks him. Fighting even in pve is annoying in tight places pack with mobs because of not only me and hielang are pulling mobs but the people that i am fighting are pulling mobs. Unlike EVERY OTHER CLASS (exept ranger bow) that has their attacks do full damage on opponents w when they use their attacks our damage output is lessen 1/3 to 1/2 due to all the mobs attacking both me and heilang.

    Right now with the massive change in pvp Heilang is very very easy to CC especially by ranger bow attacks because not only does his evasion base stats not protect him from CC anymore but now its starting to show that heilang was always counted as both a pvp and a pve mob taking damage from both and CC from both sides of the spectrum. I could activate a void and some random pve CC could just stop heilang in his tracks wasting the cooldown along with other moves like howling.

    Before it wasnt much of an issue too much dealing with heilang follow ups since tamer were known for being able to extend combos with some sort of protection to allow most of heilang's attack to hit its mark (mostly in 1v1). But with the increase of damage for everyone and the least amount of protection for a melee class, taking out a target before helps arrive its half impossible because we are now trying to get in as much damage as possible while constantly canceling hielangs follow moves now allowing him to do full damage gimping our damage output in the process. Heilang follow ups, especially on awakening skills need to be speed up by 20-30% to keep up with our speed. If we had no attack speed buffs or attack speed increase his attacks actually would be somewhat the same speed as our attacks but that is not the case especially with the new limited CC changes. If his attack were speed up on there would be an increase in DPS without even needing protection some skills due to how fast heilang can put out his damage without us canceling his moves with another move. This might somewhat tone down the problem with him aiming at attacks that hit him instead of the target you have your curser on due to how fast hes doing his two part attacks.

    Pre-awakeing follow up damage need to be increase tremendously for both pve and pvp, or at the very least need to scale with our ap instead of entirely just his base damage x Summon heilang Lv. This would make Void a true lock down are making enemies even worry of entering even while its on cooldown due to fear of taking too much damage. We could finally have a usable skill range like Tide deal damage to the enemy we target during wars like a warrior chucking spears at enemies during wars for passive range damage.

    Theres lots of other things i could say but will type later but for now theres 2 last things i want to talk about....
    Flanking an enemy is almost impossible to do as a tamer because 1-heilang is loud as **** and when you know you dont have any tamers on your team or near by but you can hear the whooshing sound and the roar of hielang somewhere around you to easily spot CLIFFORD THE BIG RED DOG BEHIND YOU or far in the distance not even needing your mini map to know thats not your teammate. Puts a giant, COME KILL ME, sign in the area your at.

    Second-I want NA/EU to take down that picture of a tamer riding into battle on top of Heilang. That picture is as inaccurate as both Tamers pre-awakening and awakening trailors.
     
    nyuuki, Eri 4, Stanl3yrockz and 4 others like this.
  14. Syun

    Syun Seeon Tamer 61 NA

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    Using Leaves Dropping after using LBP while running forward when our awakening weapon isn't drawn also makes us do PVE dodge. Just wanted to add another weird interaction
     
  15. 920

    920 Ninetwenty Tamer 62 EU

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    Also casting it after ultimate. Also ive noticed another interesting interaction but sadly my testing time is limited nowadays , in certain combos and variations the tamer acts like the input is ignored. That might be my FPS or my shitty fluctuating connection but there are some tricks that unless i have lower than 50 ping and constant FPS tamer just stops and sort of freezes due to too fast input or something.

    All in all this is a very good thread and a valiant attempt. Over the years there have been numerous threads such as this , none of which were given any sort of response from people at Kakao , not to mention Pearl Abyss. Because whatever we reply and suggest guys , the people who will be reading this only have the power to forward it to PA , and if PA wants to fix these things they will. Sadly my hopes in that happening are close to 0.
     
    Assilma likes this.
  16. ghoulz666

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    Some attacks cannot be combo'd. I forget which but I'll just stand there and look like an idiot till the previous animation finishes before I can use some crucial skills like trembling.
     
  17. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 62 NA

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    This is where I usually say "oh this is actually fine because you need to do such and such to make it work"

    But honestly?

    Pretty much everything said above is a very good view of how tamer lacks the tools to be competitive. The other short sword classes have limitations as well, but they're still in a much better place due to stealth as they can often pick their fights. And even when they can't, they're much, much better at escaping.

    For almost all of her existence post awakening, Tamer has been in a very unfortunate position in PvP. She lacks durability, but has to be up front to do what she needs to. Now, some things have changed hat a little. Most notably, making Heilang: Howling much better than it was. Though it still does very little in large scale overall, it can give us a distinct advantage when engaging smaller groups, as long as we have an ally or two as well.

    That being said, it doesn't help all that much overall. We still have a lot of problems as listed above. Heilang still does whatever the hell he wants for the most part. And while it's meme worthy when he chucks someone that's about to kill us with down attacks, i'm 100% certain every tamer would like to have him be more consistent in other ways.

    But, in the end, i don't mind not having a "real" passive (as Heilang is our passive). Though I do think a little bit of increased movement as we skill him up would be a very nice addition and give us a much needed advantage. Even if the cost of heilang summons goes up a few points as a result. I also think that Fortune's Blessing should be addressed. That could just turn into a movement buff instead.

    The before anything else, at all, is addressed by the devs. Cloud Stomping in particular should be made i-frame again. Cloud ride isn't necessary, though I would prefer it be changed back too, but the pole vault skill is too important to Tamer's ability to survive in large scale to have it be super armor. Getting grabbed out of the air by strikers is also a little absurd.
     
  18. TheYoda

    TheYoda TheJedi Tamer 62 NA

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    My main gripe with tamer is the fact that...
    when it comes to pushing her, I feel limited. Her speed. Her cancels. Heilang.
    Its all delayed and not fast enough for a said assassin class. I envy ninja's and kuno, both shortswords because their tools and utility is kept PERFECT in harmony with manuevres needed to get in and out of sticky situations. Their cancels, Flawless, I've seen great ninjas and kunos.
    Great Tamers, I've come by as well, But I can see how she falls off in competition when being pushed.

    Basically, when playing her I feel as if shes not keeping up with what my fingers can do. Lovely concept of a class. Poorly executed.
    Moonlight strike is an abomination btw.
     
    Eri 4 likes this.
  19. ghoulz666

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    Tamer can mash an attack, then use shift+jump. That's pretty much it for her agility.
     
  20. ThatYuffie

    ThatYuffie Evarie Tamer 61 NA

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    For a class built around being agile and aggressive, it is disheartening when I'm reminded our passive is one big meme and that aggressive playstyle with the removal of one our iframes and SA on legendary beast dance is no more. Nowadays, it feels like a grab engage or hope I catch them in void or trembling to follow up.
     
    UltraHeaven, Eri 4, Mesuka and 4 others like this.

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