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Collection for the Devs - A rallying call

Discussion in 'Tamer' started by Von_Blaumark, Jul 28, 2018.

  1. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

    Mar 26, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Well, many things have already been said by the previous posters. Lack of engage/disengage, unreliable protections, a dumb Heilang etc.
    But above all, I think the problem about balancing Tamer is based on this simple question : what is our role?
    With good gear and high AP, we can do the job. yes, that’s it, “do the job”, but nothing more. In every aspect, a class can do better than us and we can not even consider tamer as a good all-around class, we’re just a poor all-around fighter at best.

    Having a summoned beast is not a role in itself, it is just a part of our toolkit ; so, what is our main strength?
    1. Damages? We’re decent on this aspect but we don’t have an insane burst on the tamer herself ; and it is logical because part of our damages are linked to Heilang’s follow-ups… But what if the little doggy keeps on crushing pebbles near our opponent? We’re losing efficiency and there’s no way to compensate it.
    2. Resistance? Hell no… SA were helping us as any other class, and we lost many of them like any other class. Still we can’t say it was our main force anyway, as our remaining SA are still unreliable.
    3. Combo ? We used to be really good at it, that’s why we were good at 1vs1 and less efficient in mass-pvp (because long combo means death in this case). But now… With CC removal we lost this ability and it clearly impacted our efficiency.
    4. CC? Well, we have some, and even a grab… Yep…
    5. Mobility? We’re good but not the best.

    As we’re not good on frontlines and not efficient for ranged combat, we still are assassins / flankers, but how can we do it now?
    The obvious way (but not the only work to do) would be to work on Heilang, lore-wise it should be one of our main strength.
    • Heilang should be able to reliably do its follow-ups on the right target, so our damage output is not impacted.
    • He should not “fall asleep” in the middle of a fight, I mean stop moving without any reason.
    • We should be able to give him orders while moving, like the “attack” order (some classes are in movement while doing insane sword slashes, we can’t move when we’re saying a word? Come on…).
    • We should be able to “tame” him more : offensive mode (he attacks our target, defensive mode (he attacks the one who’s hitting us) or neutral ; and obviously, he should quickly react and stick to a target until he hits or the target is too far ; I don’t want him to run between 2 opponents just because he’s on defense and 2 enemies are attacking me, for example. In this case, it would be better if Heilang could teleport back to us at any time, but still have to run to a target when he’s attacking or it could become OP.
    • One suggestion, that follows the previous idea : we should have access to his skills and link them to our own skills. Every Heilang’s skills would have its description, hard CD, no anicancel and we could decide with which tamer’s skill it should be activated, maybe adding a delay and a side for the attack (from the front, the back, the side of our opponent, or whatever) and after how much time he should stop trying to do the skill if the opponent quickly disengaged in the meantime. Again, Heilang must be quick to react for this idea to work fine, and we would truly feel like “tamers” with such a function.
    That’s one way to give back a specificity to tamers, but we could explore other ideas with Heilang’s existence (beware, these ideas are clearly more crazy than the previous one) :
    • Tamer are using shortsword and Bo as her weapon. What if Heilang’s power was giving us an increased range on our skills? Our lack of resistance could be balanced by the fact that we are not close-ranged fighters anymore but medium ranged-fighters.
      If you don’t see what I mean, think about Scratch and the “black claw” effect during this skill ; this black power could increase our range.
    • Or another idea, what if Heilang’s power was changing the nature of our or Heilang’s attacks and skills? They would be neither physical nor magical, their power would not increase comparing to the actual situation but they would be able to partially cut through SA damage mitigation, partially ignore the effect of skills like Protected Area, and break guards faster than other skills? Here we are, we now have a dangerous role of “armor breakers”!

    I know, I’m just dreaming but I have the impression that devs can’t really balance tamers because they simply don’t know what to do with them… Knowing that would help defining the necessary changes.
    nyuuki, Eri 4, Mesuka and 4 others like this.
  2. Reuter

    Reuter Tamer 61 EU

    Feb 17, 2016
    Likes Received:
    I was thinking a long time about what to write cause it would obviously also be in my interest to get the class back into a playable state. At the same time I made my peace with the (highly possible) fact, that both the game and the class will never return to an acceptable state. Either way, I'll keep it short since most of the important stuff has been said already.

    First and foremost some stuff I actually think needs to go: Random CC ability of Heilang (especially in 1vs1). Seems like an incredibly cheap failsafe when people have to do unprotected combos. Staff ultimate is also borderline broken in terms of damage, it gives flashbacks to an ult heavy meta back when Wiz/Warrior ult used to be predominant. All I see Tamers doing in RBF for the most part is WW until ult is up.

    Tamer fixes would mostly revolve around reverting changes which crippled the class. An extensive overhaul or additional mechanics seem out of question since the class development team within Pearl Abyss appears to be gone. All class changes in the past few months boiled down to tweaking with numbers and removing protection types, so I'd keep it simple as that.

    • Cloud Stomp/Cloud Ride: Most obvious one, this skill doesn't work without iframe. Can't dodge high dmg skills, can't bait out grabs. Using this skill as a method of escaping within a group fight is a death sentence and it's simply too telegraphed as an engage and also lacks CC to make it even viable as an engage. It's just a heavily telegraphed and slow gap closer, whilst it used to be a signature skill of the class. It's designed with iframe in mind, it should have iframe period. I can live with the lack of CC.
    • SA on LBD. Without this low CD SA Tamer simply lacks the offensive explosive gameplay the class used to have. As of now the entire awakening kit has two usable offensive skills, which is a joke. It's a rather slow and stationary skills, having both SA and CC wouldn't even pose a gamebreaking problem considering CC applies on a single hit anyway.
    • Moonlight Strike: Asking for SA would be too much probably (or would it, honestly. Witch gameplay hasn't changed at all). In the end I'd rather have Moonlight to be a CC instead of having only SA. You can't punish openings quickly cause there is no followup to MS that's quick enough. That skill is 90% being used to do dumb grab engages.

    That's like the bare minimum to make Tamer worth playing in the current environment. Asking for stuff like movement speed increase (it's actually laughable that I traverse the battlefield faster on a Witch simply with blue orb and SS maybe), hitbox improvements, adding downsmash, changing the dmg type to melee (or purging specific dmg resists fromt he game entirely), improving Heiland AI and bug fixes seems almost too much to ask and like some luxury, cause all of it didn't happen before the catastrophic game changes either.
    nyuuki, Eri 4, Mesuka and 3 others like this.
  3. Von_Blaumark

    Feb 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Thank you Reuter as most recent poster and all others who have contributed so far. I am glad the thread gathered as much attention.

    I want to urge all those who test out their class and analyze by way of videos to contribute here as well, since I have a feeling it's the thing that CMs most respond to.
    Also, if you have not posted yet, please do (short, precise, single topic preferred) as I would like to finalize this thread for staff review soon. I wanted to give the whole operation some time to build up as much momentum as possible.
    Eri 4 likes this.
  4. irrelevant

    irrelevant Pixelstorm Tamer 62 EU

    Jan 19, 2016
    Likes Received:
    i gave up on this class and on these clown devs so i don't even want to bother with this subforum but i was asked to post (altho i do have posts but they're all spread around)

    1. tamer's movement speed is garbage compared to other classes in bdo so it needs to get buffed in some way
    - give passive for movement speed increase or give movement speed buffs upon skill usage (which is what many other classes have like witch after tp and kuno/ninja after jump and they also have ms buff).
    ~ 10 sec movement speed for 10% more after using lbp so it can basically have 100% uptime. On top of that they should get a passive (like rangers) for 10% more movement speed. Shortsword WW can get slight stamina increase (20-30%) to compensate but if ask me the whole ww concept is flawed as hell but they arent gonna rework the game
    or just give kuno ninja's ghost step to tamer that literally sounds like the most fair/ good solution to the tamer dodge issue cus right now its either too strong either too stupid and increasing the stamina consumption too much will make it garbage but buffing movement speed and not touching anything else will make it too strong and there's no way to balance a skill like that unless you don't care about balance and you go full Chase like maehwa/musa who are immortal as long as they spam their dodge cause logic

    bottom line: tamer needs movement speed increase (and that's not new)

    2. tamer's atk speed is garbage for not having protection or CC
    - (lbd, echo pierce, garuda, pole jump, beast rampage are all slow as hell and melee range) either give more protection or buff the atk speed or both which is the best solution
    ~ LBD is a joke without SA and with SA it'd be too strong and if u increase the cd ur ruining the class design that people were used to
    you dug your hole PA and now you either leave tamer garbage forever either suck it up and give SA to LBD without changing anything else.
    To give an example with another class - as a kuno you can just throw delighted blast and instantly block afterwards and you'll have your chakram cc in front of you for the next 1-4 seconds (whoever walks into it) with a fg ignore cc that's medium range and you only expose yourself for half a second unlike tamer skills which are pure melee have long ass channels and small hitboxes and are just garbage
    ~ do something about echo pierce and garuda as well - they're garbage right now. Echo pierce needs SA and garuda needs FG and if we do that we're going back to basically what tamer was before cause guess what? tamer was designed with the old system in mind and it doesn't work in the new system at all. These 2 skills need massively buffed hitbox and atk speed to compensate for losing their protection or revert them to what they were before else these skills won't work.
    I can see garuda working if it casts much faster and has a better hitbox but then the hitbox wnt match the animation which is stupid .. and it worked so good on the old system which didnt need reworking but we're past that now h3h3h3h3
    I can't see echo pierce ever working in this game unless u buff the hitbox much more and make it cast faster or again.. revert it...
    ~MOONLIGHT STRIKE NEEDS STIFFNESS BACK (but it should also keep its SA) - this is the alternative , if you don't want to give SA to LBD then you must give stiffness to moonlight strike, right now the skill is garbage and it was garbage before too. It went from offensive skill to defensive skill and that's also stupid as hell. You can't remove the SA on this to give stiff back cus then tamer wont have a way to move (again) but it's still preferable to have stiffness and no SA over having SA but not having stiffness (at least in group pvp or flanking). SA + Stiffness sounds like the most fair scenario for moonight .. or you know you should've never changed the system

    you know , after playing another class i can see how the new system actually works and benefits other classes (but i already knew that cause i didnt need to play other classes cause i know all classes in and out from fighting them as much as i have) and i can tell you that tamer is the only class that gets screwed so badly by literally all changes while other classes lost something but gained something else. kuno lost protections but gained a ton of combo potential/damage/whatever cause of the new cc system which is one of the main factor for making them better. Tamer was designed with the old gameplay in mind and that's why it doesn't work now (and it didn't work before cause of partial bs and stubborn developer not fixing obvious bs and bugs). Tamer isn't designed for the new system
    you can make kuno work by removing SA or FG on some of their skills cus they have other redeeming qualities like range or attack speed or cancel potential
    look at kuno's worst skill atm - its Chain Crash. The skill used to have a stun + sa before but they removed the SA but it can't be ani canceled and is fairly low range and really slow and does low damage.. basically sounds like all tamer skills (which can be canceled but the rest factors are the same)
    and look at one of the best kuno skills - delighted blast , it lost its superarmor (which is a huge thing) but the skill is medium range and has op hitbox with fg ignore and extra effects and can be cast really fast and all those are redeeming qualities and tamer skills dont have such qualities cus theyre all either slow (if full channeled) and have no range at all

    i don't see tamer working without 'fixing the old combo back'
    moonlight > lbd > allround

    either give sa +stiff to moonlight or SA to LBD and then we can talk .. and then someone can argue that they are too strong and they probably wouldn't even be that far from the truth but this is the only scenario right now for the class.
    `SA+ stiff on moonlight means you get a good engage which makes hit and run/flanking-grp fights and such much better than now
    `SA on LBD means youre gonna have huge pressure and damage but you're still gonna get killed in group fights. It'll fix the class and boost 1v1 power a lot, which probably still won't make you top tier in 1v1 so maybe it's okay.

    kuno/ninja have HIDE
    maehwa/musa have CHASE
    valk/warrior turned into garbage cause they took away their SA and now theyre only good by rotating 2 skills with 270 ap but guess what.. any other class could do it better so if those players rerolled they'd be better lol, besides that they're just grab bots. If you buff echo pierce/garuda and try to force a new playstyle like moonlight > echo-garuda> whatever it won't work cus its still too telegraphed and cus u still lack other tools and cus moonlight w/o cc gives way too much time to ur enemy to react and you'll still be **** but if you buff LBD tamer's melee-staying power becomes considerable so it can actually fight and stand its ground way more than now cause kuno-ninja get free engage while maehwa/musa get free combat mobility or disengage so a tamer should have a redeeming quality in order to be viable and that could be just giving back some of the old tools cause with iframes and actually useful lbd/moonlight you can move around the fight and actually fight

    alternatively you could just give up on the concept of seeing tamer as a mobile class and change tamer from Riven to Jax or something. Give passive defense skills to tamer that make it much tankier/beefier than it is now without changing anything else, that way you still achieve a similar effect but in a different way but i don't like that way cause it doesnt match tamer's appearance and style, they are nimble and deadly cus dark magic and shadow pet and **** and also little girl with mountain guy with a staff (thats literally ur awakening quest btw , not making things up)
    i prefer making the "evasion tank/fighter/assassin/dps" concept work over making something like "here have half a kit and a lot of defense xd", especially cause they don't make defense in this game work right and they recently nerfed mystic/striker's unique defense so it seems like they dont like it either

    - enough with the hypocrisy PA. "You only get iframe on skills that make you disappear" and then LAHN has iframes on half of their skills and they don't make them disappear? Same with ranger's bow backflip. This is so stupid lmao.
    ~ pole jump simply CANNOT work without iframe. the skill is too GARBAGE. it was designed with IFRAME in mind

    whats the closest skill to pole jump to compare? It's witch-wizard's teleport, a disengage or frontal mobility skill.. now lets see
    witch-wiz = pre awakened skill, lower cooldown, a selfbuff that makes you move faster, covers more distance, IS FULL IFRAME, is much faster cast time,. CAN BE CAST IN BOTH WEP STANCES
    tamer = awakening skill, longer cooldown , no movement speed selfbuff and some joke out of place mini evasion buff, covers less distance, is not iframe, is much slower, can't be cast in shortsword , YOU CAN BE PULLED AND STUCK IN THE AIR AND BUGGED, YOU CAN GET FALLING ANIMATION, YOU TAKE DAMAGE
    bonus: block jump = is instant, can be cast in both stances, is iframe, can be used to juke your enemy in any way, can cover huge distance if used properly, can be set up for a cc, has a CC on its own, can be used to engage or disengage or juke and you can't be pulled or hit or anything during it, shorter CD

    LMAO. just writing about tamer makes me pissed off cause i have to think about how trash those skills are and i can't even bear to play this joke class any more. This skill simply doesn't exist without iframe, just give us witch-wizard teleport
    if witchwiz can have it then tamer can have it too and it won't be too OP since 2 classes already have it so what's the problem? Or give us lahn's backpedal iframe which is so incredibly op btw (can't block jump lahns cus of it).
    Even with iframe polejump isnt an omnipotent skill, it's just a good skill but nothing special. Without iframe the skill is garbage, not to mention the falling bug and the pull bug which are never gonna get fixed cus they dont even know how to fix them. Did they even acknowledge them? 300 tickets later and threads later they for sure know that's a thing but they don't do anything about it. How can you know about a bug and not do anything about it? I know how - it's part of the game engine so it can't be changed. What can be changed is for pole jump to get its iframe back so the skill can work again
    ~ while we're at it, make sure pole jump also gets its stiffness back altho this isn't a priority especially if point #2 is heard - then it won't matter

    alternatively if you think this is too much or too unfair then give us witch/wizard teleport or kuno/ninja block jump. If those skills exist on 4 other classes then we can get them on tamer too. It's clearly not OP in their book.

    Btw i'm not flaming anyone, im simply stating facts

    block jump is a fact
    teleport is a fact
    pole jump being inferior garbage compared to any other similar skills is also a fact

    tamer being designed for the old system is also a fact which is why u need to put ur foot down and do some radical big changes not some small stuff and u need to know what ur doing

    basically just listen to my suggestions

    - do something about those cringy garbage 57 rabams
    ~ both suck, the fist has too small of a hitbox and is too slow and the 2nd part is completely useless. The legendary claw trash is just bad, its too slow and the range is too short and the cc effect is too hard to proc and the dmg is too bad and everything about that skill is bad and the halfprotection is bad too. Make it fully protected and faster or keep it as bad as it is now but faster, better distance covered, better cc application. Kunoichi has danse macabre which is a partial sA+Iframe skill and it doesnt have defense at the start but it's a pseudo dash/ranged skill so if you use it from distance you're fine and you can land at your target w/o getting cced and thats a way that this claw could work like or give it full protection and make it much faster but remove the CC as long as the skill gave u mobility and decent dmg and could have a flow with the rest of ur skills (smt like DK's awakened dash) while the other 57 rabam (the fist thing) the first part should have much bigger hitbox (the knockdowN) and the 2nd part either shouldnt exist, either should be protected (fg or sa or both) either should be changed

    5. Pre awakening skills are outdated compared to other classes and the other old classes have ranged skills in their kit on pre awakening while tamer doesn't
    - buff pre awakened skills to be on par with other classes . I've already suggested this more than once.
    ~ roar swaps from awakening to pre awakening, lower cd and doesnt go on cd every time you use it
    ~ flash has FG, pole thrust has SA (its flow)
    ~ tree climb has no collision at all (so its only an iframe) or it keeps it iframe if you collide with someone (btw nice removing pole jump's SA cus you dont disappear but not tree climb xd logic btw)
    ~ i'll talk about the pet buffs below but basically buff pet attack and make surging tide's pet attack work
    ~ fix upward claw like it was before. Before you could do UPWARD CLAW > BOLT JOLT (which was the best pre awaken dmg) now you can't cause you do upward claw > leaf slash (auto attacks) and only then you can do bolt jolt (bolt as a cancel to leaf slash) so you miss the air attack on jolt, which is incredibly stupid. IT wasn't like this before "animation optimization" but now it is and its baaaaaaaaaaaaaad
    ~ return scratch's side animations to how they were before "animation optimization".. where you could go left and right with them which felt faster and covered more and different distance

    6. Make the friken pet work.. you know, like witch/wizard ones OMEGAhihi
    - make tamer pet attacks be static (like witch/wiz flows are). I already suggested this ages ago
    ~ what you would have to do for this is increase the hitbox slightly to compensate for not moving and then make heilang teleport on your location when you use a skill and then cast in a decent sized area in front of you - that way lag and desync wont affect the pet and the attacks won't be rng and your damage will be reliable like witch wiz dmg is
    ~ increase howling's hitbox cus right now its too small.

    The problem with tamer pet is that there's always desync so people always move and your pet sees people on a different spot from where you see them on your client cus this game isn't precise and people aren't always there. It's the easiest way to see how delay desync work if you get a guy to be on sprint run in a straight line then you cc him with some big hitbox skill and then he'll fall somewhere else from where you saw him cause when you hit him on your screen you cc him then the data transfer stuff happens then he sends you his data and on his screen he was already 3 meters in front of where you saw him cause it takes some time for the data to travel cus of the way bdo was coded and this thing is a huge problem for tamer pet in europe and its one of the main reasons why the pet in here is garbage

    i seriously wonder how pet is in korea and ive wanted to see a pet with 8 ping cus i assume it will probably be different but we're not in Korea, we're in EU/NA so we deserve the product to be made for EU/NA. If i go to the local store and i buy a product that was made in a different country (even if its Mexico , despite living in europe) when i look at the packaging there will be LANGUAGE MANUAL FOR MY OWN COUNTRY ON HOW TO USE IT ELSE THEY WOULDN"T SELL IT IN THE STORE
    they sell the game to us so they should make sure that the game is playable for us and that means accepting that we'll never have 8 ping and adjusting things to be more ping friendly WHICH IS NOT HARD TO DO AND IS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE IT JUST HAS TO BE CONSIDERED.
    Increasing howling's hitbox might make the skill more worth it ,right now its way too easy to miss with that stuff cus the pet doesnt do it instantly and doesnt go right next to ur enemy always
    ~ increase the range at which u can use ur pet attacks even more than now (cus its still not enough , for howling/pet attack)
    ~ make pet attack actually useful. I don't understand why you removed its knockback but witch/wiz didnt lose their 5 second ranged CC ability that does more damage and covers more range and can be used on top of buildings? So their logic was like this - "we'll reduce tamer pet attack from 10 to 4 seconds but if it keeps its knockback it'll be too OP so we need to remove the CC" but they didn't do anything about witch/wizard 5 second cooldown ranged CC? And there's more classes with low CD ranged ccs btw. I'd trade pet attack CD for an actual CC on that skill easily

    knockback or stun or even stiffness with a decent hitbox on 7-8-10 second cooldown on pet attack with the new movement speed and slightly increased range sounds just fine to me. Kuno has a 15 sec cd ranged knockback and its an okay skill, its not too strong its not too weak and it finds use

    For now i'll stop here, i'm sure i can think of way more things to add but i'm not feeling it any more so i don't feel like writing in this thread, but i will write a last point however which'll try to wrap things up


    What is tamer? Is it an assassin? Is it a tank? Is it a mage? Is it a bird or a plane? Is it an evasion based fighter? Is it a bruiser?
    You don't assassinate better than x or y classes
    you don't tank better than x or y classes
    you dont cast spells better
    you arent a bird or a plane or even a waifu any more
    you aren't a mystic either and you aren't a jack of all trades either
    as a kuno player i do everything better than tamer and my only weaker side is smaller frontal burst on 1 skill rotation and that's pretty much it. I have better mobility and in fight mobility, better tankiness if i have my buff up, better cc, better engage and disengage and hitboxes and even better combo dmg cus half of tamer skills dont even have air/down modifiers

    the class has no identity, in the past it had the same problem but in the past you could outplay people at it steered towards evasion(iframes and sidesteps, not gear and tankiness) based fighter/bruiser which imo fit it perfectly. You weren't an assassin and the whole " ERHMAHGERD TEMER BERST" thing was a huge meme, tamer had burst (still does but only) cus of superbuff and so do all other classes, the other day a DK hit me for 75% of my hp with a single ability from 300 meters. With superbuff i can 2shot some softcap people on my kuno out of stealth in a second.

    IMO and that's trying to follow their logic - tamer is supposed to be a BRUISER, a RIVEN (from league of legends). Not the fastest and not an assassin but a semi-tanky melee fighter that's capable of doing huge damage and potentially carrying fights and isn't that squishy but isn't quite a tank either.

    if a game had stats like
    crit (fictional stat)
    - and you had those 5 stats and a normal class like a "tank" would have 300 stats combined with most dp and hp excelling at them, then you have an assassin with 300 stats combined with most ap and crit, then you have mage with most spellpower and crit or w/e and they also have 300 spellpower
    and then the only way to actually make a bruiser work is to give them more than 300 stats cause a melee bruiser with only 300 stats either wont do enough damage either wont be tanky enough so the solution is to give them 350 stats and that's not an unique solution its pretty much the only way u can even make the concept of bruiser work or a "jack of all trades". You don't excel in 1 direction as much as a master does but you're overall better than they are else you dont work

    the irony is that tamer has the lowest "stats " in the game, you literally have the least of everything in this game to a point where tamer even recovers slower from CC than other classes do and that's why it isn't working

    If you want tamer to be a bruiser it has to "have more". Right now it has enough dmg if it gets going but it doesn't have enough speed , utility, defense .. hence all my suggestions.

    Anyway the best bruiser in bdo and the closest thing to an actual bruiser is MYSTIC. It's dmg is high with high gear and they're tankier than other classes, they have decent mobility and utility and overall bdo bruiser = mystic. Striker is like too much dmg and less in some other departments so they're like full ap bruiser or smt and maybe what tamer should be

    so to make tamer a proper bruiser changes need to be taken ... or ... you could go crazy and make tamer an actual shortsword assassin and give them ghost step / hide / block jump like kuno ninja and make your pet also go in stealth with you and then increase some of their offensive potential and some iframes but dont touch actual defensive stats and u basically have urself an assassin, it fits the weapon and it gives tamer an identity, whether its the right or wrong one is not gonna be up to me to decide, it could work if its done properly and it could also suck

    or you can just give tamer half of kuno/ninja's kit instead the full, giving full kit is like making you a Talon (league reference) but giving half is like making you a Zed, you can still be an assassin without stealth you just need increased speed and mobility and trickery (block jump) and such

    imo what tamer was and what they aimed to be = an offensive bruiser (but that failed)
    imo what tamer should be = an offensive bruiser (but without failing)
    imo what tamer could work as = an assassin with or without stealth

    imo what i want to play = i'd be up for both tbh and i wouldn't say that before i played kuno but the style is certainly pretty fun

    every class has something that makes them good, except tamer, that's why tamer isn't good

    warrior = lingering SA (At least before, they dont have it now so they suck)
    sorc = iframes and range and overall ridiculous stats - they get free ap, dp, evasion, crit, all sorts of stats, ridiculous hitboxes
    ranger = range and stupid high dmg
    zerker = range and half of their kit is still SA (all the grabs) and stupid mobility on top of havin 30%+ more hp than other classes and self heals
    valk = they had lingering SA and pull but now they dont have lingering sa so theyre just 30v1 pull bots with unreasonably high dmg and nothing else
    musa/maehwa = chase
    witch/wizard = range and overloaded awakening kits with protected CCs with low cds and perma/full SA-FG rotation and huge dmg reduction
    kuno/ninja = hide and overall their pre awakened skills have a lot of frontal mobility (combined with ghost step) and frontal momentum
    MYSTIC/STRIKER (the "closest" thing to what tamer could be or the concept at least) = heavy stats (extra magic dp, lots of evasion selfbuffs and passive everywhere and overall pretty tanky and overall jack of all trades)

    tamer = tamer has pet but the pet is a joke and it doesn't even come remotely close to compare to other classes's unique flavor, if anything witch and wizard have a pet and it;'s better lol
    the only unique thing tamer has is the pet rNG cc and that's Rng and it cant be controlled and nobody likes playing with or against it and its unreliable and rare

    if tamer were to get any of these other classes'"unique perks" it also would have redeeming qualities and it wouldnt suck

    lingering sa is gone so no
    the sorc treatment = can work but that's part of what i already suggested when i talked about giving more stats plus they'd have to give extra iframes and range and better hitboxes which is a stretch
    ranger = i dont see tamer getting a bow
    zerker = i dont see tamer shooting a cannon or being the most beefy class in the game (cus it doesnt make sense) or grabbing people for 30 seconds as a small girl, it just doesnt fit
    musa/maehwa's treatment = chase - that could work , it's one way to go about things and it'll certainly solve problems
    witch-wizard treatment = i dont see tamer casting ranged lightinings but for the rest part it could work somewhat.. and guess what ? tamer is part mage by cocenpt/design, all the heilang skills are magical and so is LBD
    kuno-ninja treatment = joining the shortsword club and going covert, a shocking decision but plausible. I can see it work , it's already using a shortsword and its theme is shadow (tamer beast) magic and "spellblade" is a somewhat popular concept in other games where you get a rogue with magic
    mystic/striker treatment = getting much tankier and more stats. You don't get beefier you just get thicker skin, mountain training brothers club basically

    the tamer design =
    martial arts (bolt jolt, resonance, kicks, dodge rolls and evasion)
    sword training (shortsword, flash which ironically is the only actual skill u use with shortsword)
    dark magic ( whiplash, scratch, roar, void lighting, lighting of earth, upward claw a mixture of martial arts and dark magic)
    a staff training / two hand weapon training which isn't a subtle weapon (like shortsword) but more like a "come at me" weapon and a wep used to and good to fight multiple opponents (which is again contradictory to shortsword)

    ive always liked this concept but as u can see even by design they don't know what they want cus they 're going in all sorts of directions, a swordsman and a martial artist and a mage that's like kunoichi + Mystic + witch + maehwa (2h weapon) combined

    the entire design contradicts itself
    sword and staff's fighting style is the opposite of each other and martial arts and magic is also the opposite of each other and you get nowhere

    pick an identity and focus more towards it or buff all aspects to an unreasonable level where you could literally contest certain classes in their own realm
    what i'm saying by that is that your sword skills alone should be 66% of kuno/ninja's skills and your staff should be 66% of maehwa's awakening kit and your magic should be 66% of witch/wiz etc(you still won't be as good as them but that's what jack of all trades means, having more trades than ur enemy. Very easy example with a rpg i played a few weeks ago - if you multiclass (2 classes) you can learn skills from 1 to 8 for each class but if you stay only in 1 class you can learn skills from 1 to 10 and u also learn them slightly faster but they're the same skills (except the last 2 levels which are unique op skills)

    in this game you could argue that some other classes are also specified in different types of combat and some would go like sword+ martial arts (kuno-ninja) but overall most other classes are very simple, both of warrior's weps are vanguard weps and same goes with valkyrie and same goes with mystic-striker they literally only have 1 style despite having 2 weps and so on

    the class was almost doomed to fail by design unless they were willing to give it more stats , which they weren't
    #24 irrelevant, Aug 6, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
  5. Vanspoon

    Vanspoon Tamer 62 EU

    Oct 30, 2016
    Likes Received:
    From my POV:
    • Moonlight is unreliable af. no news here we have been having this forever. Same applies to LBClaw
    • I-frame is totally needed in Cloud Ride/Cloud Stomping.
    • SA in LBD would be cool and it can be balanced if they turn the cd from 3s to let's say 8s.
    • Heilang:howling is clunky af. It could be pretty damn good as a skill but lacks the range to be good flank-wise and doesn't work well with the geography. Essentially instead of teleporting most of the times it gets close to the opponent and at the same level as the tamer, making it under circumstances functionable.
    • Absorb heilang shouldn't be castable without heilang being summoned(since it doesn't apply the effect to begin with)
    • Turning fortune's blessing to an actual pvp oriented passive and not a pve crap.
    • A down smash/another air smash in a skill would be cool
  6. JM

    JM Tamer 62 NA

    Jan 31, 2017
    Likes Received:
    - class mobility/movement speed needs to be looked at
    - Iframes on cloud stomping is a must
    - Issues like falling animation on Cloud Ride need to be addressed
    - Maybe its just me but I find it very annoying that I have to resummon Heilang after absorb buff. I know its called absorb but it makes it less effective to use in a pinch cause if I activate it in response to a situation it may be too clutch to try to resummon him..... so then whats the point if I lose so much by not having him out for a large portion of the buff..... maybe its just me but it seems much less useful when you need to respond to something quickly
    - Another annoyance is my bad ass summoned beast running away in terror from small puddles. ..... an annoyance that I think should be addressed.... wiz/witch pets don't despawn in shallow water do they? (I don't know)
    - Unreliable skills ..... moonlight/upward claw..... iframes on leaves dropping are unreliable
    - incredibly underwhelming passive...... 50 hp and 15lt..... this seriously needs an update. What good does that do us?
    - My agile young martial arts girl feels like a lumbering ox when attacking compared to the speed of others' attacks and for having to engage up close this is a huge problem. Attacks need to be faster.
    - Heilang is unreliable..... many have made suggestions to make his follow up attacks static much like wiz/witch pet. We are the summoning class and we have the less reliable summon.... doesn't make sense. I should be able to know what Heilang is going to do... not suddenly wonder.... where is he? Oh....way back there attacking that grass beetle for some reason.
    - I too feel hitboxes are too small and should be addressed
    - SA back on LBD..... increase cool down if need be.... but its hard to be on the offensive as things are now
    -Give us an actual role
    - Also please acknowledge the issues we've outlined..... even if to say "fat chance aint gonna happen".... something.
    Eri 4, Von_Blaumark and Assilma like this.
  7. Asunai

    Sep 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    Hello, I was linked this thread. As a level 60 tamer I can attest that things need to be changed. Against people of other classes with the same AP and DP as me, I notice that I do way less damage and take way more damage. Additionally, Heiling still constantly despawns in water that's shallow enough to walk in - it makes farming Fogans nearly impossible because if the dog despawns I lose about 50% of my attack power and can't kill anything. As a tamer, I feel gimp, nobody wants to recruit me into their guilds for PVP purposes, etc. It's frustrating. Apparently these issues have been ongoing for years and the devs are ignoring them? Not cool. Especially the heiling despawning issue. That should be an easy as heck fix and yet they aren't doing it...

    It gets annoying when someone tries to tell me how to play because they notice me taking a lot more damage then them, when I am playing the same way - Dodging attacks, going for the back of monsters, etc. They don't seem to realize the DP issue is something pertaining to the tamer c lass and NOT something pertaining to what I might be doing "wrong".

    Also in PVP I have issues because my character is uncontrollable for the majority of my moves, not sure what if anything can be done about that, I don't pvp much, but it sucks. (I should add, people can still hit me)
    #27 Asunai, Aug 7, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2018
    Eri 4, Von_Blaumark and JM like this.
  8. Tottesan

    Jun 12, 2017
    Likes Received:
    Already rerolled away from tamer, but good going for you guys staying with the class after these CC changes. Dont expect any changes though guys, this have been talked about before, tickets have been sent and the changes never happen.

    Dont really know what I should bring to this table, but these are the changes I think are needed to make tamer semi viable again.
    1. Iframes back on Cloud Ride and stomping, literally the only decent disengage we had, designed with iframe in mind, not functional without it.
    2. SA back on echo pierce, useless skill without protection since its casting time is too long. (This skill doesnt need a CC, its not that important, mostly used as a filler or wep swap)
    3. Garuda needs FG back or a massive speed buff to make it viable, casting time is simply too long.
    4. Legendary Beast Dance (LBD) needs SA back. Slow cast time, rendering it useless without some sort of protection. Really important skill from before, helping with dmg and to put pressure on an opponent, smth Tamers lack severly right now.
    5. Some sort of buffed movement. Right now the class cant outrun or chase anyone, movement speed buffs like @irrelevant suggested might work.

    Cheers for reading, have a pleasent day.
    Eri 4, Von_Blaumark, JM and 1 other person like this.
  9. Von_Blaumark

    Feb 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Please. A reminder to post all forms of discussion and opinions on the other thread linked to this here.

    This thread is meant purely as a collection of what we find is wrong with the current state of tamer. You're welcome to post on the other thread. I will try to get your posts moved there.
  10. Amilliya

    Jun 28, 2017
    Likes Received:
    Agree with alot of what OP wrote.

    I feel very slow and very squishy when playing my tamer when it comes to movement and the amount of damage I take.
    The class is fun to play in general when it comes to the combos and in pve except for bosses where I flop over and die if I get hit.
    I survive better on a lower level, lower dp striker against bosses which makes no sense.
    I feel like the bo staff has very short aoe range in alot of situations compared to other classes.

    The heilang is pretty dumb too
    Most of the time it wanders around waiting for you to use certain abilities before it attacks.
    What I don't understand is why heilang is not a bigger part of our kit.
    Why dont we have alot of combos that weave in the heilangs superior mobility and strength?
    We could have a combo that would put us onto the back of the heilang to allow us to make a long jump and then jump off the heilang in one big animation or a side dogde where we grab on to the heilangs side and avoid stuff while the heilang shields you from anything that hits.
    If people try to run from you, chase them down on the heilang and jump off it with a certain attack to slow the escaper?
    Eri 4, Von_Blaumark and TheYoda like this.
  11. Circe

    Nov 6, 2015
    Likes Received:
    Can they do this?
    Heilang: Howling
    Cooldown 40s -> Cooldown 20s
  12. iTroll

    Jul 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    Tamer is meant to be something like Summoner in blade and soul game.Thats the most accurate way to put it with the use of pet.
  13. Hummy

    Mar 25, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Lately with my spare in game money and decentish gear, I have been class hopping to try out classes that I like the look of.

    My gameplay on the classes I try consists of intermittent grinding to 59 and frequent 1v1 and 2/3 v 2/3 arena sparring with guildies. With the occasional open world PvP encounter.

    Through this gameplay I am able to get a good feel for the class and get to grips with a decent amount of its PvP capabilities and combos. Ive done this with Kuno, Ninja, Ranger, Mystic and more recently Tamer.

    Tamer is one of my favourite classes visually. However In my short play time on her, the two most serious issues that made her next to unplayable in all PvP situations were:

    • Incredible (compared to various other classes ) lack of a reliable engage/disengage for such a melee focused and squishy class.
    • Substantially weak in many areas due to a singular design problem. Heilang. Because Heilang is so unreliable in everything you can do with him, yet th
    Mesuka, Eri 4, DocPepper and 2 others like this.
  14. Hummy

    Mar 25, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Lately with my spare in game money and decentish gear, I have been class hopping to try out classes that I like the look of.

    My gameplay on the classes I try consists of intermittent grinding to 59 and frequent 1v1 and 2/3 v 2/3 arena sparring with guildies. With the occasional open world PvP encounter.

    Through this gameplay I am able to get a good feel for a classes basic PvP role, capabilities and skills/combos of worth.

    Some of the classes I played were Kuno, Mystic, Ninja, Ranger and most recently to present day, Tamer.

    Tamer is currently my favourite class visually, I had a very low level storage tamer who I only picked up to play about 2 months ago, but I cannot bring myself to play her for three primary reasons which jumped out at me during repeated PvP encounters.

    1. Incredible lack of a reliable engage or disengage considering she is a squishy melee class.

    2. A very large part of Tamers ability is locked behind the simple fact that Heilang is broken.
    Of all the Tamer skills and commands I used that involved Heilang, a very small number were reliable in that they did exactly as the skill described 100% of the time.

    This is clearly visible when simply being attacked by more than one opponent and Heilang is in offensive mode.

    It is even difficult to accurately say how offensive mode is meant to work, given that sometimes Heilang switches target based on who attacked you, and sometimes ignores this, othertimes he will switch depending on who attacked him and sometimes he will simply stand there and do nothing.

    When I press 'Command: Attack', I expect him to chase and attack that target until he is told to do something else.
    Not change target or do nothing or simply attack once then run back to me.

    Its perplexing to see how broken the state machine logic on Heilang is. Many players mistakenly account his unresponsiveness to desync and what have you, but as a games programmer who plays BDO with a decent ping, Its more than apparant that Heilang is broken in many ways which is literally playing against Tamer as a whole.

    3. As a squishy melee class, her very slow and long animation sequences make her unpractical to play in PvP.

    Now consider with the current PvP state of 2 CCs to combo with.
    Tamer cannot PvP in the current PvP state because of point 1. She cant land her CC without reliable engage. Nor escape to re-engage.

    And point 2. a big chunk of her damage relies on the unreliable and broken Heilang, who can also break her CC combo with his seemingly RNG CCs.

    I have only picked up Tamer recently and played her for a short while so I can't offer good solutions but can quite easily conclude that she is a hot mess that cant stand against the kits of other classes.
    Mesuka, Eri 4, JM and 1 other person like this.
  15. Death_Grips

    Death_Grips Death_Grips Tamer 61

    May 8, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Another thing that I noticed is that they ninja nerfed Command: Attack. Before the changes Heilang would indefinitely follow the enemy as long as I stayed in range which opened up some cool possibilites. Now he stops after a laughably short range. Most of the time when enemies are at max range and I use Command: Attack and they move even a tiny bit away the whole attack wont hit.
    Eri 4 likes this.
  16. Rubio

    Jul 13, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Hello, I wanted to contribute with the request that the heilang's no longer disappears when it touches the water or you lose potential attack and cc.
    They never made this fix but they preferred to change the wording in the description of the hailang skill, but in nodewar the tamer can not participate in flooded areas just for this problem.
    Eri 4 likes this.
  17. Asunai

    Sep 16, 2017
    Likes Received:
    This belongs HERE, not in the other post. I main a tamer and these are problems that I personally notice:

    The class is broken and bugged. It has the lowest DP scaling of all classes in the game, and the dog is bugged and despawns even in ankle deep water. If you don't play the class then I don't think that you really understand the bugs that we are talking about. So you got two shotted by someone who probably had insane gear - it happens, even with a broken class it can happen, someone mentioned that earlier.

    That doesn't negate the fact that we have the lowest DP scaling, that our dog is broken, and that certain skills don't operate the way that they were intended to or should. Also, from my experience, we cannot "iframe all day" like you say we can.

    Hell, I'd just be happy if they would at least just fix the heiling despawning issue. Not being able to fight in areas that have ankle deep water like fogans really sucks. I can deal with the DP squish issue with potions, though I really don't understand why our DP scaling is worst then a statistically known squish class like witch/wizard.

    I'd like to point something out: I've been playing this game for over a year now, almost 1.5 years. I have only run into ONE other tamer than myself while playing in the world. I run into all of the other classes constantly, especially witch and wizard. What does that tell you? The class is underplayed. What usually causes a class to be underplayed? Having stuff broken & not functioning the way it was intended to which makes it undesirable - see reasons stated by myself and others earlier in the thread.

    I NEVER see anyone other then myself logged into my guild on a tamer, either. It's like the class doesn't exist. Except for me because well, I guess I like punishment? Meh.

    From my personal experience playing on a tamer, up against someone of the same exact gear score as I do, and they kill things 10x faster and take 10x less damage then I do, and it's not a skill thing. When I transfer that gear to one of my other classes and go to the same area, they are on par with the other person.
    Eri 4 likes this.
  18. nyuuki

    Feb 28, 2018
    Likes Received:
    Cloud Stomp/Cloud - give back iframe like everyone suggested.

    Give Legendary Beast dance super armor again.

    Make Leaves dropping/gust base line skills instead flows. Replace the flow slot with skills that increases the range and hitbox of tamer's staff skills using the power of heilang

    Allow tamer to receive reduce damage when using Super armor skills

    Give Summon heilang skill super armor. Witch and wizard pet summon give super armor for example.

    Make each rank of summon heilang only cost 1 SP for a total of 10 SP total cause there is zero reason for the skill to be so costly with skill points.

    Split moonlight strike into 3 skills:

    - Regular Moonlight strike still has super armor but also now have cc again.

    - New skill called twilight that has the same speed, animation, cooldown, and distance of moonlight strike but instead of super armor give it frontal guard/ no cc.

    - New skill called eclipse that has the same speed, animation, and travel distance as moonlight strike. Eclipse no longer have Super armor, frontal guard, or cc but is a full iframe, longer cd and no collision.

    Surging tide, scratch, and trembling can now be used in awaken if you equip the skills to hot bar.
    Eri 4, Assilma and Von_Blaumark like this.
  19. Netreiam

    Dec 20, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Make Heilang more than a simple mob please.

    1. Make his skills separate from his body (Tamer can already summon multiple Heilangs so having a “Spirit version” execute skills while his physical body does whatever isn’t game breaking)

    2. Make his status tied to tamer (stats/buffs/debuffs/ccs etc) it removes the need to scale him (maybe make the passive something useful?) and stops random CCing when the tamer herself is CCed (which is pretty BS)

    3. Make ride Heilang fun. Imo it should get full SA with slight damage reduction, more stamina, and it’s skills should be a little more flexible/faster. The trade off being the same bad damage it has now.
    Eri 4 likes this.
  20. CM Yukimura

    Community Manager

    Jan 9, 2017
    Likes Received:
    This thread has been shared with the developers.

    Please keep providing constructive feedback, as it will be easier to collect similar ideas from tamer users, and show them in the OP as clear as possible.

    Thank you very much for your collaboration!

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