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Damage Reduction is trash

Discussion in 'PvP' started by WhiteShadowXXL, Aug 16, 2019.

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Damage Reduction is not good anymore

  1. Yes, Damage Reduction is underpowered and needs a strong buff

  2. Yes, Damage Reduction isn't good and needs small buffs

  3. Damage Reduction is fine

  4. No, Damage Reduction is to good and needs too be nerfed

  5. Brandee shut up, noone cares about your DR problems

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. Jaeger

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    Nope. I played tera and i played warrior. With a full combo i took just half of the hp from my enemy with a equal gear. In the past i played often against squishy classes, but against tanks,for example lancer i never took half of his hp. So hp balance would help to not get one shot. The only problem is, you would never heal so much like now with pots, but for me it is not a problem, its just a balance
     
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  2. Shakur

    Shakur Musa 62 EU

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    dr scaling wouldnt be that bad if evasion wouldnt scale to good with classes like ninja/kuno/striker/mystake and probably sorc on other classes its just fine. all those "broken" classes have 1 thing in common they have around 10-20% evasion buffs from skills or passive evasion, its not the problem of evasion itself just the scaling with those classes.

    imagine if they would buff flat dr i would become unkillable with my c9 pen gear even as a musa lol

    Pa truly ****ed it up with caphra levels on pen gear if it would just stop at pen or would be actually used to get pen they would have just get rid of the ap scaling and thats it but now with caphra lvl on top of pen a flat dr buff would just buff people like me and low geared players still get clapped.

    Edit: some classes have useful 100% acc or evasion debuffs or dp debuffs thats something PA has to consider within balancing a certain type of gear shouldnt effect pvp because certain classes dont scale well or lack the ability/skills to deal with hybrid/evasion or dr builds.
     
    #22 Shakur, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  3. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 62 EU

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    Every Lv you should get HP bonus like Lv x 100, that will fix PVE too, where you can go only with super rare gear, PEN gear should be rare not abused thanks the p2w, in the future only full PEN players can go in some spot? is that the end of the game? and why the difference should be only the gear and the lv in this game is low impact in the pvp? only high proportional HP bonus can give me a decent advantage from other playes with lower lv than me to pair equip or similar and i think is right because some lv require most time to reach.

    First you should take advantage of this aspect, almost totally ignored by the developers, then you think about how defenses work.

    In korea they gave 1000HP bonuses in mass PVP, there must be a reason, but certainly not enough, they want to make us too dependent on the gear so that to get the maximum we have to spend money to play.

    Ash forest is a perfect example of p2w area
     
    #23 Kurtferro79, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  4. Crimson_Scarlet

    Crimson_Scarlet Shai 60 NA

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    Thats Ronins intention though bait out people , cc them and getting them jaded enough to try kill them. Now while thats all happening others if they are paying attention can mop up. Though sadly most people are to busy sitting in block and to scared to engage or do anything for the matter.

    Having multiple people attempt to engage 1 person is a good thing not bad from the dp point of view :)
     
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  5. Vanraven

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    Remember the original Final Fantasy 14 was so bad, that it brought global shame to Square-Enix and its developers. They were so humbled by the experience that they took a loss and remade the entire game, they did it for the fans and players. They understood that WoW was the most popular mmo ever and for a reason and decided to just follow the formula. Japanese culture tends to revolve around being honorable, if they didn't do what they did then SE and the FF brand would of been forever tarnished. KR devs in comparison aren't like that, they tend to be more self serving. Its not really about what the players want. If they had made the original FF14, they would of kept it just like that and added a cash shop. They would of changed nothing to little about the actual game. When I stepped into RBF the first time and I seen the atrocious respawn area design and found out that its been just like that since its launch, I knew right then and there that BDO devs just do not give a ****.

    Before anyone can give them any type of credit for pvp or hope that they will ever fix pvp, then we have to first discuss why or how does a developer give the ok that a tall tower, with a drop that makes you lose health, with a tiny door were up to 30 players must go through is a ok respawn area design. Because if you ask me, if they can't balance a respawn area then they can't balance anything.
     
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  6. levinano

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    BnS arena matches or gear even OW fights are pretty long. Potions have a 60 second cooldowns and recovers 100% HP over a span of 10 seconds as opposed to being instant. Everyone have 4+ unique methods to escape/punch back during CCs (which admittedly would be cancerous in BDO because of how difficult it is to catch someone) which forces a new color into gameplay where you have to keep in mind your opponent's CC escape cooldowns instead of "catch -> mindless regurgitation of practiced combo." Being able to kick someone while being grabbed also means that if you're on the verge of killing them and they grab you, you'll still win (this bit would be nice to have in BDO but probably wouldn't make a difference cuz pots, in other words, spammable pots makes BDO unable to be balanced).

    DnF duel PvP was even longer with a system that encourages juggling your opponent for a whole minute. The second you use a strong attack, a soft CC limit is applied where they accelerate super fast to the ground preventing further juggling (at which point you can still fit one last grab into the combo). There is no pots though, so one fight consists of grinding down someone's HP through SA trades and combos. Problem is, with this system classes with heals gets an advantage. The male mage takes this to a whole new, god Tatsuya level, where after death he gets to revive one time and if he isn't killed within the next 5 seconds he regenerates to full HP... And if I remember correctly that revival skill has a CD, if you can't kill him again before that CD's up he could revive again.

    Old School RuneScape, a western MMO who does balancing and updates that listens to their community (frequent meaningful and effective community polls) has "rushing" mechanics such as freeze -> D claws -> Gmaul, Ballista/Dark Bow -> Dragon Throwing Axe, 1 HP Dharoks -> Gmaul, etc etc, that lets someone 100-0 someone before they even get to blink. We're talking about a game where you pretty much lose all your shet after you die.

    Let's not say it's a country/culture's dev's fault. These are just examples to counter your statement, by no means do I disagree with your overall point as I've also listed problems with both styles of fight extensions and why they wouldn't work in BDO. I think BDO's AP meta is fine as it is, but I also think that DR could use a little boost, evasion is fine as it is. Evasion can make someone invincible but 400 DP evasion becomes a subject to getting 2 shotted by 100% accuracy skills. The point is that there's a counter to it, which makes it balanced. There isn't a hard counter to DR, so it SHOULDN'T be as OP as Evasion, but at the same time it shouldn't be as weak as it is now. Classes like Valk that heavily relies on DR, HP-wise and shield durability-wise would receive their necessary buff by doing this.

    The only real challenge comes from BDO having to balance all PvP situations with a super complicated combat system while most games don't. BnS has blocks and some attacks that nullify attacks but generally the system is extremely simple. There's no CC limits, not SAs, damage multipliers, RNG resistances, etc, and they don't have to balance outside smallscale (max 6v6 which is already a shetshow), the game mostly balances around 1v1s and it's fine for the game that it is. Same for DnF and OSRS (melee means absolutely nothing in mass PvP as Blood/Ice Barrage and ranged Chinchompas take the spotlight ie. balance completely forsaken). Siege and NW in BDO, on the other hand, is too big part of the game to not balance around it, making balancing the system and classes that much harder in BDO.
     
    #26 levinano, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  7. levinano

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    You act like full PEN c6-c9 is easy to get. Whether they no-lifed it or spent couple tens of thousands of dollars on it, they deserve to be gear carried, that's the point of an MMO, it's the ultimate progression where there isn't a hard cap on your goals with a goal post that gets moved every other month due to new updates. The longer you play a sport the more buff and more specialized muscle you have for that sport which makes you more "gear carried" to a point where a newcomer of a couple years without those experience/reaction/muscles can never win. That's just natural. If anything they need more gear equalizing methods to prevent ganking like AP/DP capped channels or equalizing arenas.

    I wouldn't want DR to be boosted to be remotely as strong as Evasion since there's no hard counter, but with AP brackets as they are, DR should at least see a slight tweak and a easier way to build it without having to waste DP points on tiny bits of Evasion hybrids (Manos Earrings, Orkinrad, no DR necklace). Instead of a direct buff I'd like to see it be viable so people at least have the option to go for it and sacrifice AP and other stats in the process. Buffing DR wouldn't be to make DP stackers more OP than they are now. It's to buff classes that relies on DR and make an aspect of gear building more viable for the average Joe.

    Chaos's build is annoying because it helps her team and is irregular. In a game where you have fun killing people, having a irregular is unfun... for you. With like 460 DP she's not killing anyone, there's nothing wrong with someone not wanting to die. The flip side of the coin is that she's unable to kill anyone and even if she's a CC bot, she needs a high AP, low DP glass cannon teammate to finish off the job. It's build variety and it's balanced. Annoying? Yes, but it's not like she's doing it just to troll people and make people hate their lives. Some people just legit don't like the AP, CC = dead meta. Sacrificing yourself to have 7-8 people focus you also lets you come up with new strategic plays. It's annoying but not unbalanced or game-breaking.
     
    #27 levinano, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
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  8. Doom Smack

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    Lineage 2 pvp was awesome (and korean) and not so short battle/kill time. No too long either unless tank vs tank.
     
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  9. Vanraven

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    Which L2 did you play? In prelude -c5, archers were two shotting people.
     
  10. noctred

    noctred Maehwa 62 NA

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    I wouldn't say DR is trash as much as the cost required to get enough DR for it to matter is kinda out of whack.

    Players running around in caphras'd pen armor can be tanky and can survive getting one combo'd but let's be real - that kinda gear is out of reach of the average player so using it as a baseline argument is pretty dumb. Meanwhile, AP scales much harder at a much lower cost in terms of effectiveness per point gained - it's much easier and more sensible to push for a point where you can be relevant by one comboing other people than it is to push for a point where you can be relevant by not getting one combo'd yourself.

    AP is the real problem imo, not DR. In other words, buffing DP/DR would be a mistake (worse and worse power creep) - taking another look at the way AP scales would be a better approach. Making AP brackets apply to PvE only could be a good start.
     
    #30 noctred, Aug 18, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2019
  11. Icywave

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    Yes , I tried not to mention all stats because this whole game is based on gear stats ultimately so you'd have to eliminate entirely the way stats work in this game and people just won't accept that ... the best way to make this combat the best is to introduce equalized gear but again I think we both know that people won't accept that because the gear they've worked hard for would become useless and there'd essentially be no point to progress outside of just pvp content with equalized gear which not only changes the core philosophy of their game mentality but also a horrible marketing decision on top of it.

    PvP Combat in this game for the above paragraph's reason is a massive joke and just dependent on luck and PvE ability. Yes, there is combos and cancelling in PvP in this game but none of that matters if you're outgeared, which makes it redundant to be good in PvP unless you PvE to get the gear. With equalized gear, it would pretty much bring it down to a class level, which would still introduce problems of course but would be much easier to balance for example Sorc would be instantly better due to iframe ability, hence why I said static level of active avoidance per class.

    If you run full evasion you should do little to no dmg and your AP should tank as a result at the very least, if we are to keep the stat in the game there should be a huge tradeoff for running evasion. Currently there just isn't, it allows too much esp for cost investment vs DR at top levels.
     
  12. TwilightAngel

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    Sorry no lol can't compare FF14 original to anything.

    The game was horrible when it released... It was basically how bless online was and reason why bless online closed down. It had nothing to do with honor it had to do with the massive money loss square enix would be suffering from investors which they did take a dip in profits and was able to turn it around

    Try again if you truly think it was all because of honor lol they are a company looking to make money and their investors can give two craps about honor
     
  13. WhiteShadowXXL

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    Agreed and disagreed

    It is indeed less of thinking into going in with the risk of dying but it isn't that brainless going in

    you can still do missplays as a full DP class like a full AP class but that isn't as noticable as dying as a full DP class because it doesn't die of one combo or at least it shouldn't imo.

    going full DP with the intention "well i can go in and do whatever i want because i don't die anyway" is the brainless way and that is why people like this won't do a big difference in group fights... it is all about effectivity against whole groups and that is the exact same as playing full AP

    If you go in brainless as an AP stacker, you will most likely die... but maybe you did some important damage against enemies that can already cause the difference.
    If you go in brainless as a DP stacker, you won't die in most cases... but your kamikaze caused nothing but an almost meaningless cc or a debuff

    Would like to see how tanky they are honestly. Also curious if you talk about AP stackers or DR stackers (and the class itself is important too i mean some classes have an immense base tankiness)


    His gamestyle is annoying... but does he kill you? No
    That is the intention of playing DP. Giving up the ability to kill people but withstands more enemy combos and damage.
    You CC him, you won't kill him one combo. He CC's you, he won't kill you either.
    How to deal with it? Ignore him or wait until more people show up to damage him. Works against me every time. They kill all the DPS and leave me alone until all DPS are dead ans then they take me out.
     
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  14. IWalkAlone

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    Its not AP or DR, but probably is more to DR.When they made last changes, a 200 AP couldn't do damage at 250+ DP, and they fixed it with DR changes.
    But at the end the problem is in AP, DP, DR, Evasion and Accuracy complex.All of them and scaling between them.
     
  15. LightsOut

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    I know this will sound strange at first to most of you but there is no problem with DR. There is however a big problem with PvE.

    People have and will always prioritise getting their AP high, while not progressing on their DP gear since PvE provides no challenges. Except for the newly released zones (Sycraia and to some extent Star's end), world monsters aren't challenging. Its basically:

    More AP = Grind faster / More income
    More DP = Same ****

    If monsters were actually dealing damage to players, they would be forced to itemise against that and build their DP to be on PAR with their AP.

    There are many many people atm, running with 281 AP and 285 DP. That's ridiculous. Ofc they will get one shotted in PvP. If your AP is 281, your DP should be at least at 331 to have a somewhat balanced build.

    Because AP is so dominant (due to making you grind faster and no monster challenge), people will buy the cheapest AP accessories they can afford (basi instead of valtarra, crescent instead of ruins ring) etc. Just so they can faster boost their grind speed and allow them to make more money thus progress faster. This also ties into crystals. How many of you are running the new corruption crystals in their offhand? Or ap crystals?

    How many items do you have on your char that give you purely AP? How many items do you have that give you DP/DR?

    Solution: Make monsters really difficult and force players to build defensive in order to survive in the game world. It will both solve the problem of "PvE content being too easy" and "one shot meta".
     
  16. dobe

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    Its only "okish" in theory because you wont make the pve more "challenging" but just more "gear dependant" but atleast this is a decent way for people to learn 330 DP and below IS low DP.
    But in the end All of this is only applicable after the devs severly buff caphras acquisition,else it will be an another joke throw at us.
     
  17. LightsOut

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    Actually I think it would. For example if you go to Sycraia Abyssal Ruins today with 310 DP, you will struggle but if you're really careful and you play passively and try to evade monster attacks you will survive. You will however (because you're actively trying to evade monster attacks) land less hits on the mobs, hence doing less damage, making less profit.

    It will be challenging in the sense you will need to be 100% focused to survive while doing the maximum damage you can to maximize income. And you will still do less profit than someone with more DP who doesn't need to care if he takes too much damage from mobs. Which will incentivise people to gear more DP, to boost their income.
     
  18. LightsOut

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    There's also one more interesting twist in here.

    Lets say Evasion is as strong as people consider it to be right now, and more people try to counter Evasion builds by using Accuracy accessories / offhands (bronze dagger / PEN RCE's).

    Guess what? This immediately drops the average player AP, thus making DR better again.

    It's all about meta. And the current meta is AP + Eva.
     
  19. Itago

    Itago Witch 62 EU

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    You have a screenshot of someone having that gear, not just while recovering from a stupid PEN roulette on ARMOR?
    285 is not even TET armor, its 2 TET pieces and 2 TRI pieces, with pure AP build.
     
  20. LightsOut

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    I might have oversimplified, what I meant is 281 ap and all TET armors 0 caphra. Be it 295 or even 305, its still the same. It does not match their AP by a large margin and they will still get one shot in PvP.

    And btw, thats also a good reason why people do PEN roulettes in teh first place. Cus armor does't seem important enough as they'd get one shot at 285, 295 or 305 dp. TRI vs TET armors makes no difference now when so many people are over 269. (Thx bartali)

    A good rule of thumb for a balanced build in PvP is to have at least 50 DP more than your current AP.
     
    #40 LightsOut, Aug 20, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019

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