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Deal with class balance

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Morticae, Sep 4, 2019.

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  1. 2Cents

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    Lineage II went through this for about 15 years and at no stage was it ever even close. In fact in the later years it went complete P2W and became one of the worst balanced games ever created. It got so bad that a single OP P2W player would win sieges vs entire large clans.

    It's actually likely some of their devs work for Pearl Abyss. They are programmers/developers in the same country with only a few large companies to choose from.

    At what point does everyone just get it that it's not going to happen? How many years does one need to be jerked around before they wake up? From what I have seen it can take 2-8 years for those desperately wanting to see it.
     
  2. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    1)The problem with the pvp balance starts with classes not having a clearly defined role.

    2)And then is the problem of the new classes that make old ones irrelevant. Mystic/Striker vs Warr/Valk. Archer vs Ranger. Ninja/Kuno vs Sorc.

    3)Another problem is that new classes are made intentionally OP to bait rerolls and 6-8 months later the nerf hammer hits.
    That isnt a problem per se, since we all understand that the company needs to make money and if you are dumb enough to fall for it, then thats on you. Now even after the nerf, the new class performs way better than the old one thus making it "irrelevant".

    4)Old classes not being reworked. Keyword: reworked and not buffed.
     
  3. FrozenReaper

    FrozenReaper Archer 62 EU

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    mean your 6/9 party setup never changed anyways, mostly dd classes shifted depending on chronicle but even same setup could remain relevant for decade... especially due to hardcore leveling curve ppl did not really feel rerolling their party dd's and take off almost year from pvp to get back to same lvl, more like improve current setup and communication inside party
     
  4. 2Cents

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    Spellsingers killing entire parties, Vortex busters one shot players, backstab from the front to instant death, OP Hero's, to now Truffle videos killing entire clans solo. It's all a mess that was never cleaned up and conveniently comes from the same location as Pearl Abyss.
     
  5. Hekki

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    Not sure about what L2 you are talking. That is not the case of only true L2: C0-C6 and classic. Maybe priv servers?
     
  6. 2Cents

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    It was the best of Lineage II upon it's release and years after. The Truffles comment is more of a current game. I won't ever play Lineage II again because I don't care for the bot fest.
     
  7. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    I think I'm one of the few people who actually thinks pvp is closer to being balanced than it is unbalanced. A few tweaks here and there and stop trying to push one shot meta and we have balanced pvp (excluding obvious gear gaps).
     
  8. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    You conviniently forget to mention that whenever this happened there was a HUGE gear and buff difference.
    +6+ Armors
    +6+ boss jewels
    +9+ weapons with the relevant addons (yea i forget the names)

    A +6 or whatever was the safe enhancement for weapons vs +4 S jewels was nothing. People were dieing like flies like this.
    Also, buffs.
    There was a huge difference between the generic mass pvp buffs and specialized anti sps/spellhowler + evasion + speed buff setups without cov/pof/pow just so you could kite for eternity.

    Hero buffs were indeed freaking OP but they have a very very long cooldown if i recall corectly.
    The problem there was not the buff but the hero status farming.
    L2 up to, and including the chronicle after c6 was greatly balanced.
    Classes had distinct roles, you had multiple setups both in buffs and gear for both pve and pvp.
    It was still a gear dependent game but with same gear it all came down to skill.
    Its downfall was the bots and dev greed.
     
  9. robertthebard

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    Here's what I understand about "balance": Paper is OP, nerf it, Scissors are fine as they are, signed Rock. The meme is out there, and it's a meme for a reason. I'd estimate that about 90% of the issue comes down to "I can't beat this class, so they're OP and need to be nerfed". This isn't to say that OP classes don't rear their heads, because they do, but if I took every class balance thread I've ever seen at face value, no class would have anything but basic attacks, unarmed, with no armor. Then there's that ~10%, where something is really broken. The law of averages would say that if I'm going to pick which is the case, I'm going to have to run with Rock/Paper/Scissors.
     
  10. 2Cents

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    I'm referring mainly to before the game went Free to Play. From what I have seen in videos since, it didn't get any better.

    Upon it's release a Spellsinger could win ANY fight with 1 skill. It was about 1 second to cast and virtually impossible to resist. The player would be "asleep" unable to move or perform actions. The next skill cast was cancel. It would remove 100% of buffs. You wouldn't even awaken at this point. You would then proceed to immediately die to any cast.

    They even went BDO level dumb on it. You could sleep someone, then poison them and watch their HP tick down and die. The opponent could do nothing against this.

    You don't seem to know the true history of Lineage II. And yes the game was always about ridiculous buffs.
     
  11. FrozenReaper

    FrozenReaper Archer 62 EU

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    yet again those classes on right hands were good but there were better ones, heroes were op yet those were farmed with insane communication between thousands of players yea cant be seeing that sh*t in bdo your lucky if 2 guys even communicate

    well this is what it is now at goddes chronicle, it used to be balance chronicle where skill>gear during pt fights, but now they just overkilled it with op boss weapons


    mean it went f2p late 2011 during goddes first chronicles, yet it was still balanced pvp untill they introduced boss weapons...
    buffs was thing i really liked about game and not only that but how much a impact such "buff slave" class can have in their party pvp if played right
     
  12. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    Sorry but the buff setups were freaking great
    I remember us having multiple different setups for many different scenarios
    One setup for our archer groups, another for our mages, another for when we were outnumbered and needed to kite to infinity and beyond, another 2 generic setups for mass pvp, and on top of that specific setups for certain pve areas.

    That game had how many support classes? 8? Every single one of them was unique and most importantly useful.
    I mained for years a shillien elder with doomcryer and blade dancer subs. A good support made more impact than a bad dps with top gear.

    And that variety of both support classes and distinct roles is what is missing from this game
     
  13. 2Cents

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    Loading 4 game instances just to run buff bots is absolutely terrible design. It's one of the best things to be removed from most games today and something that BDO should never engage in.
     
  14. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    boxes sucked true, but for more serious stuff u wanted alive supports anyway.


    for mob farming you and your friend could load up full party np tho....
     
  15. 2Cents

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    Upon release Spellsinger was hands down the most powerful class in game. No archer could stun before getting slept. No class could approach them and there was essentially no resistances. It beat every other caster due to it having the fastest cast speed.

    It was impossible to ever survive. There was no gear, no skill, or setup that could ever defeat this.
     
  16. FrozenReaper

    FrozenReaper Archer 62 EU

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    yet again, archers had over more range than mages early days till what like interlude where they made their range same, untill that point you could litearly hit 3 times before mage hit one once

    and if you actually had more than half brain owning supports, they kept those mages off from your dd's untill you won pvp... its hard i know, many ppl sucked

    edit: most retarded change what they did last patch on lineage2 classic was to remove sws/bd agro working during pvp... by making that pvp time litearly become so much shorter
     
  17. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    Yea that was the private server way because dances and song lasted from 4 minutes up to an hour.
    In official dance and songs lasted like what? 20 sec? 40sec?
    So you could indeed have one or two boxes for grinding but for pvp not really.
    On top of that to hit 78 on your main prophet or doomcryer buffers was a pain in the ass.

    I am not saying to bring more support in bdo but generally speaking removing supports from games is not a good thing.


    Meanwhile competent necromancers during c4 were steamrolling everything :D
     
  18. 2Cents

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    It's a very complex issue. In general "buff" classes are nearly useless. A class that can be played as an outside party member to give extra stats every 20 minutes is a complete failure of the game design.

    A support class or crowd control class or hybrid has real value. A Shaman in Everquest is a hyrbrid class. It's limited heals and slow/debuffs helped. An Everquest enchanter was a real crowd control class. Shai fits more into a support role. To heal and debuff targets.

    Allowing a class to increase crit dmg, AP/DP by simply adding even a 5 minute buff is garbage. It's the same effect as an elixir. It then leads to maximizing grinding by having a buffer sitting outside a party. It's also cheese for PVP.
     
  19. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    Sorry but what the ****?
    I mained a shillien elder for 7-8 years in lineage 2. Subed into a doomcryer and a blade dancer and a sagitarious.

    At no point i was useless either in pvp or pve.
    The shillien elder was providing besides the main 20 minute buffs profecy of wind, recharges, secondary heals, debuff cleanses, resurections, tertiary target calls in case the main caller missed something.
    The doomcryer had a spammable sleep, shackle, stun, could swap on the fly between light or robe sets and weapons and could also provide 3rd line heals and mediocre peeling for his healers.
    The bladedancer again had to refresh his dance buffs very often and manage mp while providing the occasional debuff, shackle, swapping between armor sets and weapons to be effective in different scenarios.

    But sure in a private server with 3h long buffs, dances and songs from an npc almost all supports except bishop and evas saint were useles.

    Support classes wont really fit in this game but generalizing like this is silly to say the least.
     
  20. FrozenReaper

    FrozenReaper Archer 62 EU

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    yet without active support classes your party was irrelevant in pvp, should know this if you even played official... pserver ppl dont know this
     

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