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Developers: It's Time You Grow Up

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Belle Atwell, Sep 10, 2020.

  1. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
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    We bought this game as an MMO.

    It has five people we can add to a Party.

    Tonight I was invited by FRIENDS to PLAY WITH THEM grinding Mirumoks

    We have 5 people in the Party. You know what happens when you have FRIENDS??? I'm asking because apparently this is a vastly alien concept to you. As aliens to the human species I am trying to be compassionately aware of your possible incapabilities ... When human beings have they want to play with them.

    When you artificially tell us "you can't group with your friends" that's on you.

    We didn't choose this.

    You did.

    So fix it.

    Here's what you do.

    You don't like people sitting there leaching at Mirumoks? Well good. Neither do I.
    So, you already have this limit until level 54 that we get no loot for lower level people being in a Party. Great job! Excellent. BUT... then you go and add this limit to who is getting Loot and Experience for how many people are in the Party.

    WHY?? You can program can't you? Can you not hire a programmer to detect who is hitting a creature and who is sitting their doing nothing after some duration and then turn their experience / loot returns off until they start hitting things again?

    Problem solved.

    Otherwise, why don't you just come out and say it, "We are against friendships and humanity acting human. This is Social Engineering?" We would completely believe you because that's what the Western companies do. They mess with people just to see how they can mold them. Well, thanks to things like Call of Duty's videos we see through this (if that's what you're really up to)... but don't get mixed up in otherwise if you aren't.

    We came here to game.

    If we didn't like your company and it's policies you can bet people would have opened up a hoard of private servers from when this game launched and played there. Instead, we play here. Why? Because we like your company!!!

    So stop it.

    Stop pulling us apart from the people we want to play with in the only place to group that is accessible. We'd go to Gyfin if the AP / DP requirements were lower. We USED TO GO TO Pila Ku, but you made that Solo only. What is wrong with you? Largest dungeon in the entire game is solo only. Only full party dungeon has such high AP / DP requirements we can't get there. And there are no other options?

    Grow up.

    People are done with this messing with us in our games. This game used to be perfectly fine with 5 person parties when it launched. It was that way for YEARS. Now recently in this last year and some you mess with it. Well guess what. We're thoroughly sick of it!

    We get off work or come home from school. We want to play with our friends a bit. Share an experience together. Log off. And you know what? Sometimes we don't. That happens too. People do burn out on other people wanting to group all the time. I do fairly often and so does everyone else. You've got the right amount of stuff for us to do in the game right now. You've always been very good at knowing what of how much content you need to have for us, but in this case (whether you know it or not) you hurt the game.

    Tonight people were getting together to grind as a party because it helped the GUILD MEMBERS GET TO KNOW ONE ANOTHER. But, when people can't get to know more than 2 people at a time they quickly go, "Eh, screw you. I don't know you from, Adam." And then they go just the opposite way. They get more distant. They don't want to Party because that might cut them off from the friend who invited them to the game in the first place. Now do this across multiple people and instead of getting a whole bunch of people interested in the game you get awhile bunch of people going, "Well, I'd like to play with you after work, but the idiot developers won't let us."

    So, good for you. You figured out how to give people cheap rewards they didn't earn at the snap of a finger with Season gear pissing off the people that invited them to try the game in the first place who worked hard for that same gear for a year or vastly larger if they played prior to the Central Market. Meanwhile, you tell those same people not to play together with more than one other friend because you don't like it. Specifically YOU devs or your management.

    You need to go take your management and sit them down in a chair to explain this. They clearly haven't a clue or are deliberately doing this just to see what people will put up with. I can't think of any other reason someone would deliberately make their game less than it was at launch otherwise.

    If you need some inspiration? Look at Dark Age of Camelot's little dungeons scattered all over the place. That game could support up to 8 people in a party.

    That's 4 pairs of people who are RL friends with at least one other person in the party. That's 2 N64s playing in the same room Smash Brothers. OR... you have Black Desert. You take those 8 people, remove them from the room until it is down to just 3 people and tell everyone else, "You can't play with us. Dae, Da, and Chul get the controllers this hour. You'll have to wait until tomorrow night." It's an MMO!! You have space for FIVE PEOPLE in your Party system!!!! What is your major malfunction??


    Something is thoroughly out of wack in your heads if you can't comprehend this is a stupid system. You made an MMO. The joy of these things is being able to get together and do the same thing with a few friends. Five people to a Party is a bare MINIMUM number a Party should be. What if someone gets a girlfriend? Can they bring their girlfriend to the Party if just three people can join? NO! So what happens? That person chooses, "Do I play Black Desert or love my girlfriend?" If they have any sense at all they choose their girlfriend and you lose a customer who was otherwise loyal to you because you can't be bothered to try constructing something in sync with humanity.

    We're not borg.

    We're not programs to be codified by habits you afford us.

    We will rebel.

    And you won't like our attitude every time it gets their. Particularly with things like this because it wasn't there until you made it so. And then it didn't need to be there in the first place. And you know what? I don't even think it is you when I write this. We've heard what our governments are starting to push for in the movies and tv shows from abroad now. It's sick and twisted and evil. So, I don't think it's you. I'm just saying keep the Christmas songs playing. We respect your company quite a lot.

    Thanks for the many good years. Sorry for this harsh post. It's annoying this situation though.
    MisterJoy, Cascaden, rSick and 3 others like this.
  2. Nannyberry

    Jul 17, 2020
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    You actually have a point. That is why the community asks for group content. I do think they need to rework the party system. We would make much much more friends.
    Jinoro likes this.
  3. Ned Sheynji

    Ned Sheynji Sheynji 63 EU

    Oct 25, 2016
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    There is plenty of reason why BDO is popular and not being reliant on groups is one of them.

    If you dont like BDO being more of a solo game then go back to WoW.

    PA chose this by design, like you said, and with what fking right do you think you have any say in how this game is supposed to be designed? I hope with "we" you mean you and your 5 friends because this opinion doesnt reflect on the majority of BDO players in the slightest.

    I do not want this game to force me into grouping up because i have barely any time to play anyway as a full time working part of society. So when i get to play i do not want to spend half of my playtime searching for people to play with. I want to jump in and have fun.

    If you want to group up on low ap go grind waragons.
    #3 Ned Sheynji, Sep 10, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  4. BlueSatin_old

    May 18, 2020
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    Ask them to change the group to a platoon.

    - Everyone leave the party.
    - The leader use the command /inviteunit <name> to invite every friend to the platoon.
    - The step can be repeated up to 19 times.
    - Hunt all together.
  5. rSick

    Feb 11, 2016
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    Why do we need to think in extremes tho? Why not both? You can have solo content which you can do like you always did, giving you the same level of progression that you always got as solo. Why would it bother you if others would chose group content if they could?
    edit: i am also mostly a lone wolf myself with the exception of my husband which i like to play with, but i would not mind having the option of group content when time allows me
    Fateneko, sajdas and MoonDance17 like this.
  6. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

    Nov 9, 2017
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    The game f$%ks with your exp an loot when you do that. Its the opposite of fun, or efficient. You turn a 1 hour task into a 2 day one.
  7. KeeperG

    Oct 18, 2017
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    Guild Wars 2 really got it right with their open world mechanics
    MoonDance17 likes this.
  8. Ned Sheynji

    Ned Sheynji Sheynji 63 EU

    Oct 25, 2016
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    Because that isnt the vision PA has for the game. So stop forcing the designer to think about something they dont want to.
    Nicci likes this.
  9. Fearless V

    Fearless V TranscendentSoul Witch NA

    Dec 28, 2017
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    More than likely the same reason people like him are highly against equalize PvP in BDO. Because it'll make ganking and PKing for them much harder. They would not be able to bully lone Witches and Shais. Instead the Witches and Shais would be able to have players to peel for them to support the team.

    You have to understand most of the vets left playing this game. Don't want to PvP they just want easymode griefing. And equalized PvP venues and more relevant group grind spots for all GS ranges. Would make that much harder for them.
  10. rSick

    Feb 11, 2016
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    If you are so convinced they decided 100% on this vision of the game, then you should not be so instantly so bothered by people suggesting it.
    It's more like something you personally do not want and afraid devs might consider it (maybe).
    It's ok, we all have our own way to enjoy games. You just do not want people that like group play to have an advantage over you because of it because you personally do not want or can't take part of it. At least be honest about, that is all.
    MoonDance17 and Fearless V like this.
  11. Ned Sheynji

    Ned Sheynji Sheynji 63 EU

    Oct 25, 2016
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    Im 100% convinced because they said it multiple times in the past why they dont want group content.
    And im worried because of **** like Shai or that weird Papu Island thingie. Of which both were community suggested ideas and especially the last one was a catastrophic failure. Which for someone like me, who worked in the gaming industry for quite a while is pretty obvious.
    The devs dont want to make it but the investors force them to do it, because thats where they think the profit comes from.
    Same reason why we had to get a battle royale mode btw. And we know how that story ended.

    Im thinking about this on a higher plane than most people.
  12. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
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    Just to state my own position on things as strongly as possible:

    I subjugate my opinions to Ned Sheynji on this one. Whatever he says is more true to the spirit of the game in how I'd like it to turn out. I get what he's worried about and I am, too.

    The group situation in the game really gets on my nerves because of how it OCCURS.
    I don't have a problem with it fundamentally.

    This might be confusing to people so let me try to explain.

    Press M >>
    Drag your Map View over to Mirumoks>>

    It reads: Recommended AP: Above 240 (2-3 Member Party Recommended)

    There's my entire problem with this Party System. I mean it. This is entirety of my problems with the current Party system.

    This of this like a mathematical series: 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32... I know that down the line there will be... 1024

    Now, when I go to play Black Desert I've got a few hours I actively play and a ton of time I passively play. My friends have schedules that are all over the play. This means that when we want to get together to do something we need to be able to organize ourselves quickly. We need to know we can trust that the thing we intend to do will actually be there and possible once we start.

    Last night I was invited to a Mirumoks group. I didn't want to go because I didn't know if I would get loot. The boys organizing it that night are not particularly informed about all this stuff. Consequently, I arrived and began to grind. After a little while I noticed I wasn't getting any loot and my experience wasn't moving.

    I don't have time for this crap.

    I dropped the group and moved on, but it really pisses me off. I just want to hang out with my friends. This actively trying to stop me. It might not be what it was intended to accomplish, but we go through this every single time we want to get together.

    I hate Guild Wars 2. That company is a miserable pile of garbage that has done nothing, but harm to the MMO communities. I in no way want anything from that game to even remotely have association with this one.

    Neither do I want to see this game turn into some sort of WoW trash heap.

    American games and Americanized games are thoroughly something Pearl Abyss should take no inspiration from. Everquest 1 and Dark Age of Camelot were and remain the only respectable Western Style MMOs. Everything after that is subversive marketing, loot boxes, and politics. I want none of it.

    Okay, now that I've strongly voiced how much I side with Ned and Pearl Abyss ultimately on these things... why do I keep making posts like this?

    It comes back to the way the game used to play a year ago. A year ago myself and several friends could go somewhere together and get loot. Now we can't. I actually think this has everything to do with what Ned is upset about. The Devs listened to the people who wanted more PvE, but they listened in the most idiotic way I can imagine them to have listened.

    Instead of making a dungeon with increasing difficulty as you go down into it (Pila Ku) being the best example of this. They instead limited party size across the entire game wholesale for no explainable reason. If you try to group up now outside of the "recommended" areas and in the "recommended" numbers you might not get...

    And stop right there.

    Now we don't know.

    You see, map over to Mirumoks again. Does it tell me anywhere at all about the Exp or Loot restrictions that will be applied if I go above the "recommended" Party Size?


    And so, when you get a Party together this has impact. It startles everyone. It causes confusion. What exactly is the problem? Why is it happening? Clearly everyone is getting Experience, but is it at the same rates?

    We don't know.

    Now, because the change the Party system last year was TOTAL and COMPLETELY UNEXPLAINED (or announced so far as I know) this is VERY CONFUSING!!!!

    And that's why I made this post.

    I'm trying to tell the Devs to stop messing with stuff if they can't be bothered to explain how it works.

    If there is some sort of structure to these changes it'd be reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy helpful to know.

    But we don't know.

    It used to be the person with the Highest AP got the most loot. That still seems to be true.

    However, with the changes just being in combat does not ensure you get loot even if 2/5 Party members are't participating.

    What exactly is the METHOD we are supposed to be using here?

    Do the first three people in the party get loot, but the rest don't? I'm asking just at mirumoks.

    The question can be expanded though to every other creature node. We honestly don't know.

    That's the problem.

    That's the entire problem.

    It's even why people won't go to Gyfin right now. When the changes came to Gyfin everyone was like, "Oh cool. Let's start grinding there again." Immediately this lead to the question, "Well, I need Skill Exp and Mary needs Combat Exp. What are the Exp Rates for these things? Oh and Lynn needs loot. Does it pay enough?"

    The only way to find out is to go, but people are gun shy from all this now. If it involves Partying up people would rather just not.

    The problem isn't a need for more Party Content at all.
    Nor do we do need more support classes / etc.

    We need an explanation ON THE MAP of how the current Party mechanics work.

    Why I need to explain this is beyond me. I don't know how to use the CURRENT party system. I have no idea why they changed it last year. It ... and let me emphasis this strongly... comes across as as convoluted mess because we don't know how to confirm the structure.

    2-3 Party Members "recommended" is not a "recommendation" if after that you are going to get punished for adding more people to the party.
    the platoons do not need to receive loot or anything like that. that's not what I'm on about.

    It's that the current system was basically implemented haphazardly last summer when they changed the value of trash loot across the original launch areas. Remember when Cyclops dropped 13,000 silver trash loot instead of the current 7,000 silver? Or when Saunil was millions per hour? That was just a year ago.

    This Party issue came up then. It didn't exist before.

    That's the problem that is currently mucking things up.

    There was ZERO explanation for how it worked and no announcement it had even happened.

    Just one day the Party system worked. The next day you couldn't grind where you had grinded for years prior with a full party.


    What could the Devs do to fix this?

    Well, changing the entire game so absolutely over the course of the last year without announcing it was the source for all of these annoyance. I agree with Ned. Some idiot investor(s) are responsible for these things. I should have not been done
    Lagging on releasing new regional content to release classes is another. People wanted that snowy alphine region for years and years. We're a people who, for the most part, spend 9 months out of our year looking at snow. Instead we've gotten a desert, furry island, and pirates. We couldn't care less, basically.
    Meanwhile, the things we play MMOs for, to hang out with friends experiencing a fantasy universe together (and thereby having something to talk about together) is being messed up at the point of us "coming together" to do something.
    IMPORTANT NOTE THOUGH: We also came to PvP. This carebear "togetherness" about PvE content is something I'm against. When I request Party Content I'm not asking for new areas with new mechanics. I'm saying, use the ones already present. If I wanted FFXIV, WoW, or GW2 I'd go play them. I want Black Desert. I want it exactly like it was in March of last year. Absolutely nothing else.

    So... to fix this is easy.

    When you mouse over the Mirumoks Ruins a Window pops up that says:

    Party Size Benefits:
    Solo: Exp x 1, Skill x 1, Loot x 1
    Duo: Exp x 1.2, Skill x 1.2, Loot x 1
    Tri: Exp x 1.5, Skill x 1.5, Loot x 1
    Tet: Exp x 1.1, Skill x 1.1, Loot x 0 for 4th member of party
    Pen: Exp x 0.8, Skill x 0.8, Loot x 0 for 5th member of party.

    And there you have it. Now when we go to tell our friends, "Hey, we should go to Mirumoks, Gyfin, Pila Ku," etc we can actually TELL IF going there will be benefit to everyone and/or who won't. It also tells us exactly how to compose the Party so that if 2 people are just going to sit there twiddling their thumbs those people actually working on the grind get some benefits.

    This way posts like this aren't necessary.

    It's just so obvious to do this I feel annoyed to have had to write it all out. Why make a global change to the party system and then not explain how to use it??
    #12 Belle Atwell, Sep 11, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2020
  13. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
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    Regarding "Party Content" more generally:

    Ned, if you get to read this I'd love to hear you opinion.

    I challenge every reader of this post to do this...
    1. Go make a Party of level 49 characters with no gear besides basic weapons and level 1 Skills.
    2. Go and fight as ... as a Party ... at Calpheon Shrine

    It is thoroughly eye-opening to experience.

    What am I talking about?
    Action Combat

    For a game about Action and Combat there isn't much of it going on these days. When people ask for "party content" 100% what they are talking about I think is lost in the completely and utter idiocy of people thinking about other MMOs.

    When playing the lvl 49 characters notice how much TIME you get to SEE what is happening.

    You dodge, you move (actually run and position yourself), and attack (deliberately).

    Your team mates are doing the same.

    Control functions matter. You kick the NPC to turn it away from you. You grapple the other to stop him stunning you. You have a full rotation of combat AND SO ALSO do the enemies.

    All of that happens at speeds more visible to the human eye on those low level characters.


    Fast forwards to Star's End. You've got a swarm of creatures running at you. You're moving at the speed of twitch reflexses. Only key events matter. Only key events are event registering in your mind as visible. The explosion of the dark crystal. The knockdown of the enemy. A cry o ftheir defeat, but not observed for all the pixel sprite madness going on. Basically... it's too much action to appreciate any of it.

    Meanwhile, when you're fighting on a level 49 a speed boost actually is rather exciting. It isn't an "trashloot booster". You're really noticing how fast you can flow through the enemies. It feels heroic and exciting! You want to do it again!


    This is honestly what I think people are talking about when they are telling the devs, "More party content please." They aren't talking about "I want to snuggle my friends!" xoxoxo! That's not it at all. The people are trying to tell the devs, "Hey! You did it right when you launched the game. How about some more of that now please?"

    Somewhere in the last few years the devs moved away from that original design structure.

    They went for this stupid World of Warcraft crap where all creatures need to be "big to be bad". It's complete stupidity and actually damaged the game. It is why Awakening skills no longer have enough reach. Creatures used to be Shai to Giant sizes. Now they are Giant and above only.

    The Devs can't seem to wrap their heads around this. Like when they made Block have HP instead of just blocking. It used to be you could pull a whole bunch of Star's End creatures. Press Block and wait for them to arrive in total. Now if you press Block you're going to die because it doesn't have enough HP to survive half of the first wave of hits.

    I remember struggling for years to keep up with my friends who played Maewha. My class just can't run forwards quickly, but it circles great. Now I can burst across the field. It's great, but... that distinctiveness between the classes is gone. Again, this only happened because they made the creatures so large and their attack areas so big that we needed to close those gaps in combat.

    The Lahn and later the Shai were another major change in this direction. Those classes put down major persistent AoE fields if you look past the animations and pixel sprites. Those persistent fields are promised more damage per second than any of the other pre-succession abilities just for that reason. They are persistent. Awakening is precise. You're not rewarded anymore for being precise.

    Again... go back to playing a lvl 49 party in Calpheon Shrine for a bit. In there ... like that ...precision mattered.

    When people are talking about "group content" that's what they mean.

    More Black Desert please.
    Fateneko, Fearless V and Avonna like this.
  14. Slabby

    May 29, 2017
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    Just a suggestion, but writing a novel for a post is too much. Passion is good, and I compliment you on yours, but brevity and clarity is more useful to a CM reading suggestions. Typically, if someone has to scroll your post, it's too long.
    MoonDance17 likes this.
  15. Nicci

    Dec 16, 2017
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    Also a suggestion - anger management.

    I get that you had a frustrating experience, but you were absolutely insulting to the devs in your posts. Some things to keep in mind:

    1: Your opinion is just that - your opinion. The devs created a design from their vision of the game. You called them aliens and insulted them repeatedly saying they are inhuman just because their design differs from your preference. That is very rude

    2: Because of the unpleasant tone, anyone reading your post that might make a difference (dev, community moderator, etc) is more likely to blow it off as a nasty response or ignore it just to spite you.

    I think you had a couple good points, and I personally miss that everything is mass killing at high levels and the artfully graceful combat from around level 50 just gets evaporated into big creatures that can't be knocked down, do big damage, and stun with every hit. I do *not* agree with your perspectives about grouping. Group content can exist without changing the dynamics and design of other areas, and those mechanics were designed for a reason. I'm not going to call you an alien for not realizing this on your own, but if people DID group more freely in BDO with incentive to do so, it would result in roaming gank parties. BDO was primarily designed as a PVP oriented game, and grouping is allowed but not the focus given that it's an open world with content for solo players. There is limited instanced gameplay which I fully support. The more instanced an MMO becomes the less of a social-based community it becomes because the player base being segregated. Eventually areas become ghost towns and the game feels empty. Seeing other players in-game makes the world feel vibrant instead of dead, and I applaud them for their efforts to limit instancing --> which requires a dynamic for open world gameplay --> which is designed for non-gank-squad PVP.

    Something to keep in mind. I do for sure agree about the classes losing their uniqueness due to the "big bad guy" mentality, though.
  16. LithicForm

    Apr 4, 2017
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    You're not supposed to powerlevel people from 1 at Mirumoks, you idiots. Go somewhere the loot and exp doesn't matter to the one doing the grinding, like Sausages. Get your noob friend to 30 or 40 and move on to the next spot like Polly's and take them to Trees after they hit 51 or higher depending on your own level so you can get loot. Its a maximum of 9 level difference for party loot. This is a mechanic that used to not exist and they added it in specifically to discourage powerleveling at end game zones. You complaining about it is completely moot.

    Honestly, if you really cared about your noob friends in game experience you wouldn't power level them anyways. Save them the hours of SP grind they'd have to do to make up for being power leveled. TF are they gonna do at level 60 with 200 SP.

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