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Discussing Grouping (Again): What Would Help?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Belle Atwell, Mar 22, 2020.

  1. Belle Atwell

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    Hello,

    I'm writing this because I'm not entirely sure how to solve the issues I'm about to discuss. I thought I'd post it to the forums here and see what people do with it.

    Here goes...

    • Grouping - an activity most people want to do, but cannot due to the way in which the developers have blocked it from being used.

    High Lights:

    1. Party Size Limitations - In games like Dark Age of Camelot a typical Party Size is 8 Players.
    In Black Desert Online a typical Party is either disallowed entirely or limited to a maximum of three people.
    • This is a SERIOUS social issue for maintaining friendships and guilds.
    • The developers create this problem.
    • It did not exist in older MMOs.
    • It only exists for BDO.
    I've described this problem as: The War on Friendship

    I think that is exactly what this is. As Westernization morphed into Globalism we've seen attacks on our ability to act as individuals increasingly stymied. This is because people like those that formed the League of Nations and later the United Nations fundamentally disavow the idea that human beings can or should think for themselves. Further, that all human beings must be governed by an authoritarian overhead.

    While Fascism was defeated at the close of World War II the ideals of Colonialism morphed into Globalism, snuffing out cultures or absorbing them into the hegemony of Western federations. This accomplished the same degradation of cultures across the world as Communism had, another spawn, of this predatory system. Thus, today, to speak of values is to challenge the State. And, just like everything else the New becomes the Old. Westernization became Globalization only to retard back into Colonalism (ala, Star Trek) and now we have Corporations becoming States to become Authoritarians again.

    • Marshal McLuhan of the University of Toronto Canada described this process in Media as the "Medium" becoming "the Message".
    Marshal McLuhan spent many lectures explaining the structure of a system is and of itself the message of the sytem.

    • Therefore, if the system is preventing you from forming Parties structurally then this is the point of the structure.
    Another source of discussion like this can be found in the book Mountains Beyond Mountains where the issues of receiving proper health treatment can be understood as "structuralized violence", though i wouldn't go so far at all to call that the intentions behind the developers of Black Desert.

    • Black Desert is an MMO that wants to be Free-to-Play Mobile App
    This is one of the problems with Black Desert. Though it has many thousands of plays it would prefer that we do nothing collectively.

    • This attitude that we should not act towards our own goals reflects those core values always found with the groups above.
    Further, that we should disagree with this is something that many people would see as "an attack on the company".

    • This exactly the intended response goaled toward by the structure of the medium as forecast by McLuhan.
    As said in Game of Thrones by Daenerys, "People learn to love their chains."

    What is slowly happening in the MMO is that we are being structurally removed from one another.

    • If we put up with this there will eventually be no friendships possible nor allowed by any games online. That is the future our passivity to this structure is taking us.
    • It is a multi-platform problem.
    • It is not limited to Black Desert.
    • As with all things, what is once a facet of media will become a facet of life.
    • A life without friends or meaning is therefore to become our destiny if we do not struggle against this.
    Please, in your own way, look into what McLuhan was talking about.
    I don't expect solutions from an online forum. Solutions have existed for years. They are just not taken. Instead, I'm asking people to think about this. Why are we being structurally removed from one another? What's the goal in all this? How long term is this? Generational? Multi-generational? There hasn't been a sold group-content from any MMO in 16 years.
    The problem must have begun about the time World of Warcraft launched. This was the first time Bind on Pick-up was introduced. The first measure of Structured Social Distancing. Group Size in the previous MMO before that had been 8. In Warcraft it was knocked down to 5. This was the first major downsizing I can find of games locking-down how many friends we can be with. With Bind-on-Pickup it also meant we couldn't share with our friends. This lack of sharing was further attacked by Soulbinding the item. Thus, if a friend joined you could could not help them out.
    Summary of this particular attack:
    - friendship
    - sharing
    - helping others
    With this we can see that World of Warcraft is the first incident of large scale use of Structuralized Violence through Media.
    • Because World of Warcraft was successful (in boiling the frog?) every other MMO has used it since.
    After World of Warcraft was Guild Wars 1.
    • It was made, in part, by ex-Blizzard employees and does not use any of the structures of violence World of Warcraft did.
    However, Guild Wars 2 purged these developers during its creation process leading to the next round of attacks like this. Suddenly, the Challenge that Groups were to overcome was radically reduced. Player agency in their Skills were also eliminated. Thus, player Agency and the Need for Others was removed from modern games. Still further, ALL of the RICH CULTURAL REFLECTIONS Guild Wars 1 referenced from our real lives were removed from the game. Most of the peoples from those places were turned into racists or entirely into beastmen.
    Summary of these attacks:
    - agency
    - need for others
    - de-valuation of real-life-cultures
    - dehumanization

    And we can just keep going...

    Think about what MMOs you have played. How often is this not the way of the major companies?

    Please Note:
    I have not condemned Black Desert once in this. You know why?
    - Halloween is still Halloween.
    Not "orange and black day".
    - The 4th of July
    is still just that.
    - Christmas
    is still Christmas.
    Black Desert is still a game worth defending. As is, by extension, its company.
    - However, the Party issues in Black Desert are disturbing.
    - They have the profile of the cancer that is destroying civilization globally.
    If we don't want to lose one of the last genuine MMOs we need solutions that work within what Black Desert IS as itself.

    There is no way to exploit the market in Black Desert. This is largely a good thing in my book. The most you can do is learn to trade properly, buying low and selling high. Ace, for example, and what she does.
    • But our time and our efforts are not valued.
    This is where Black Desert has the most problems.
    • When I go out with a friend in Pila Ku Jail (the largest dungeon in the game) to receive no loot because we are in a Party there is a real problem with the development team behind this experience.
    • This is rightly taken as signs of early on-set cancer.
    • The dying of a game
    It contradicts all that an MMO is.
    • The simple fact of having multiple players online in the same world necessitates the PERMISSION TO CHOOSE to do things POSSIBLE IN REAL LIFE with those numbers.
    • And older games did.
    • And out of that came friendships.
    But, Black Desert forces you NOT choose friendships.
    • It actually limits how many people you can friend.
    Social Distancing.
    • Black Desert treats the world in the state of a Corona-Virus Outbreak like the ideal situation.
    • It is in Black Desert the Corrupted Blood Incident every day
    • Want to go to a dungeon?
    • They didn't make any.
    • Want to go to a node with creatures?
    • You can't do that because you can only solo there.
    • Want to group at a party content area?
    • You can't do that because the party size is limited to three or two.
    • Want to spend time with your friends and show that you care about them?
    • You cant do that because of the Black Desert Development People
    The virus has come to Black Desert.
     
    Grehm, Ganymede Sicard, Vunak and 2 others like this.
  2. Catastigma

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    [Gyfin Monster Sad Face image.png]
     
    AZzalor likes this.
  3. Lofty

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    Yeah there is a dreadful lack of party content and platoon content. Even guild missions have nothing to do with playing together. It is why I quit the first time to play a different game. But now the only thing I have is Star Citizen and that's far away and so I'm here again.

    What have they added since then? Some crappy boat stuff you can do with 1-2 other people, once a bloody week.

    They should kill two birds with one stone; the absolutely mandatory and urgent complete revamp of the guild system should also make players play together more. Guild missions that aren't just gathering the same trees or killing the same mobs over and over again.

    Isn't it absurd that getting to fight a guild boss (with crappy rewards of course) is the reward for doing some guild missions? When in fact it should BE the guild mission!!!!!
     
  4. NixZero

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    or maybe fascists have nothing to do with it, its just that kakao/pa got hit really hard by RMT and got a ton of credit card frauds which worsened their credit rate, they got really paranoid about it and removed every single feature in game that RMT'ers could use.
     
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  5. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Its RMT...although the lengths they have gone through to get rid of it work..Its sorta like the treatment being worse then the cure.
    Sure we have like zero chat spam from outside service selling, and PA has managed to place ingame systems to insure they too can tap that monetary resource of skipping ahead, that those other services offered. But the game has suffered tremendously. It stifles it self, and it has to inorder to keep the game spam free of those bottom feeding gold spammers.

    You are just going to see more of this untill one day a game company comes out and allows their game to be enjoyed totally free without trying to stick their hands into every single possible transaction. So the future seems bleak for BDO in this regard.
     
  6. Vanraven

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    Why do the devs have problems with group content? I think its a weird design choice. It makes it a lonely mmo.
     
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  7. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    I think its just their paranoia. We have all been waiting for the day when they decide they dont need to regulate every single little thing to insure their hands can be in everyones spending potential.

    Its like they feel if you ever want to spend a single penny it needs to be their pockets that receive it..And the lengths they have gone through to insure that no other player can offer you any sort of aid, via trading or group assisted progression has spoiled many many aspects of the game. It also prevents countless amounts of great content potential from being added in the future. They have made sure that if you want any sort of aid, its PA you go to, and they have a very extensive pearlshop to suit your needs to gain that "advantage"

    The only way this game has survived so long, is just because they have placed everything progression related aside from leveling behind RNG, so it just takes a freaken eternity to do anything, and you never notice that the games pretty hollow once you have accomplished the task of finally packing for the journey, aka obtaining your desired gear.

    Either you enjoy these types of games or you dont.
     
    #7 Kynreaa, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020
    Vanraven and MooTownSnacker like this.
  8. Ganymede Sicard

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    I completely agree. It's ridiculous for an mmo.
    Much more because this is pretty much the only ones that does it. And it's so easy to solve. Just reward parties in exp and items. That's it. Would change the world for many people and make it much more fun. Even make it like gw2 where you don't even need to be in a group and people don't have to fight for a grind anymore. it would solve so many issues, and ecourage helping others and group play.
    after that is done you can make more guilds content too, it's easy to solve and blows my mind they insist on this twisted sick way of handling it.
     
  9. yukishiro1

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    Group content doesn't make people spend money in the cash shop.

    If you really want group content, you've got to give them some idea about how they can use it to feed the RNG casino.
     
  10. Xenxix

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    Right now any group activities is sadly prohibited. Because we are facing a invisible enemy right now (COVID-19)... Sorry for the circumstances.
     
  11. ghoulz666

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    The @#$% does that have to do with a video game made in S.Korea?
     
  12. Vortexii

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    Actually, it's an incredibly difficult issue. It's probably for the best that Pearl Abyss didn't do grouping because they would most likely just screw everything up and ruin the game. Look at the Valencia release. It took an entire year to make the content viable AFTER it was already live on NA/EU. Not to mention it was much longer in Korea.

    Look at SMH and think to yourself is Pearl Abyss capable of handing seriously important balancing issues? NOT REALLY.
    The danger is making group content to lucrative and ruining all solo play. This is a common problem.

    There are PLENTY of other problems also. Sausan's / Pirates WAS GROUP CONTENT. It was also Complete Garbage. You spent most of your time running in circles and often barely even using skills. Everyone was instantly destroying everything. It really was terrible game mechanics.

    They could do the opposite problem. Massive tanky mobs that cripple your fingers trying to constantly smash so many skills. Having packs broken up does help to alleviate this. The pack gathering process.

    Unwanted classes, broken classes, Pay2Win, etc etc. Imagine TENT ONLY areas or other ridiculous issues. There are a lot of things that could go wrong.
     
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  13. Dryed

    Dryed Warrior 62 NA

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    I agree, they need to make a profitable 5 man party spots, like 2-3 of them and thats all. This game is such a single player game, its so sad.

    I have a new friend that joined to play BDO for the first time, but I'm having issues with finding what we can do together without me wasting my time just to play with him. Like there isn't a place we can go group together and have fun and both benefit, its just sad. Like I get it there is Muromok, but its not profitable in terms of silver/hour and I don't need exp..

    Like introduce or convert existing spots to group spots and make silver/hour worth it, like the more members the more silver mobs drop or something like that. Put a nerf if you grinding there solo you will get like 30% less silver/hour vs if you grind there with full party or something.

    Like how hard can this be..
     
  14. Ganymede Sicard

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    ev
    every other MMO on the market have been able to make succesful group content. I don't think kakaogames is as inept as to not be able to make it like any other MMO.
     
  15. Vortexii

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    • Mini Weeds game?
    • Class balancing?
    • SMH?
    • These new Seal animals or whatever the hell they are doing?
    • Unfinished projects
    • How many failures at making Pre-Awakening viable?
    • Awakening release + awakenings in general (They admitted it completely broke the game, mass AOE, kill spd etc)
    Their track record is terrible, it just is.
    • Valencia Release
    • Magoria Release
    • Kama Release
    Entire content updates essentially dead on arrival.

    Siege Payouts and SMH combined literally destroyed the economy for a few years.
     
  16. Ganymede Sicard

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    then they need to step their game up (literally lol) and be able to release it in a good way. it's something they need to do. saying it's better the game stays in this facebook like grind simulator state because they can't handle actual group content, is not the solution. they just HAVE to.
     
  17. Vortexii

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    They don't have prioritize or any game expertise to resolve issues quickly and efficiently. Most likely they would end up with some high level area producing 288M/hr+ and monetizing the sht out of it.

    It would be a snobby 288+ AP only party with people constantly doing loot scrolls. Then people grinding out lower area would just go........ why should I bother wasting my time........ Quit.
     
  18. Ganymede Sicard

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    are you saying it's impossible to add any successful group content to this game, no matter how competent the devs and kakaogames could be?
     
  19. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    even mirumoks are 100 mil+ an hour with advanced loot scroll :D
     
  20. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    ROFL..yea, your in that stage all of us remaining went through way back when..denial.
    Soon you will reach acceptance. And just accept this game had such potential..but PA somehow were the guys in charge. PA, I think are made up of people who were introduced to the genre in the mid 2010's, and only saw $$$ with plenty of casino experience in their background. I dont think they ever really got to know the roots of the genre and what made it to be, or what the core audience ever really wanted certain systems ingame for. They just tossed em in, with every intention of monetizing.

    The journal is really the meme on how inept they are..Its been a problem since beta I think, and its still yet to ever be addressed..It has been acknowledged plenty of times by them, but I think they just have admitted defeat with it. Other hollow and empty ghosts of planned systems show these symptoms as well, such as nodewars, rbf, and anything competitive related, but its what ever.
     
    #20 Kynreaa, Mar 24, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2020

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