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DK PvP changes seem out of balance with other classes...

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by SkullMonkey, Jul 1, 2020.

  1. SkullMonkey

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    UPDATE/FOLLOW UP:

    The original post for this talked about the seeming disparage between the Damage received changes given to DK compared to other glass cannon classes such as Archer.

    https://imgur.com/a/wpo5jRW

    However in light of some of the comments/discussion below of people saying that DK was already overtuned to begin with, which is why they're damage received percentages are lower; I've changed this post to focus on how to fix awakening. While it seems like succession is in a solid/strong place Awakening is still lacking. So this post now focuses on how to address trying to bring Awakening on Par with Succession. (Or at least as close).

    Most DKs will say that awakening hits very weakly compared to most other ranged classes unless you hit a very high AP. Compare it to Archer for instance who has multiple high damage ranged skills with KDs or witch/wiz which etc. I feel DK awakening needs to be brought up to be on par with that. While Archer hits hard and CCs he's incredibly squishy so he fits the glass cannon role very well. DK however only has a couple of useful skills in awakening that do decent damage. It really needs some love. I agree a flat damage increase might not be the best solution, but perhaps some skill damage increases to the less effective skills and protection added to certain skills.

    Here are a list of incremental changes they could make which I feel could help bring the class on par with Succession:

    1. Adding stiffen back to spirit hunt and returning Super Armor to Twilight dash would help give DKs a couple of CC engages/protected gap closers.

    2. Change the stiffen to a KD on seed of catastrophe (this gives DK a mid range KD similar to archer). If too OP the KD could be on only the flow portion so it takes a little skill to catch them on the second strike.

    3. Returning frontal guard to trap of vedir - gives them a protected backpeddle.

    4. Fix the potato skills:
      "Touch of Exploitation" and "spirit blaze" need to be completely reworked. Touch of exploitation is mostly useless IMO as it's too slow and clunky to be used in PvP and it's barely useful in PvE. Spirit blaze is a bit faster but has lackluster damage for PvP and it's flow skill is too slow to be used in a PvP situation so it's again pretty useless. Those 3 skills need to be greatly simplified and sped up so that they are useful.

      • Touch of exploitation could be just the quick upward slash of the animation and instead throws out a wave of dark energy like Sorcs "black wave" and have it float people or push them back. Also increase this skill's damage so its in the 800-900% range
      • Spirit blaze could be a single horizontal spray of swords (similar to the mini explosions of the current skill) which could be a decent mid range AOE similar to black wave and stiffen people. This skill also needs a fairly big damage buf so its in the 800-900% range.
      • Flow: Spirit Blaze just needs to be sped up significantly so it's useful. This can be done by removing the "Drawing the sword up from the ground" animation so it is an instant slash similar to pervasive darkness or enforcement in unawakened. Maybe give it a bit of a damage buff so it's in the 800-900% range.

    5. Adding some kind of CC and animation cancels to grip of grudge as well as increasing it's range would also make that skill more useful.

    6. Damage % could be added to the weaker skills particularly the closer range ones. Most hard hitting Awakening trees have skills which have 1200-1500% damage (witch/wiz/archer for instance which are all ranged DPS classes). Where as DK awakening is between 800-1100% with some skills as low as 600 and 700%. It would be nice to bring those up to at least the 900-1200% range to be on par with other classes. Obviously those would have to be judicial and put in the right places but 1200% isn't much more for their hardest hitting skills and bringing the lower end skills up to the 900-1100% range Isn't too unreasonable I feel.

    Obviously making all of these changes might make DK awakening too OP but its a list of various buffs starting with the protection and CC changes which I think they could make incrementally until the class is up to par with succession.
     
    #1 SkullMonkey, Jul 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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  2. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    PA balances based on popularity. In Korea the class is too popular, and they had those hidden values in an attempt to psychologically sway people into playing the more overpowered class. With Shai as the obvious exception.

    Honestly at this point, its prolly best to either start class consolidating. DK/zerker, Witch/wiz/shai, Kuno/ninja, warrior/valk, ranger/archer etc. Just so those classes can be on par with guardian. Or do away with the class system altogether, let people pick race, and gender, and go archage style..Your class is determined based on the skills you select with skill points.
     
  3. Minarya

    Minarya DarkKnight 63 EU
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    PA has stated before that the class modifiers were introduced with DK release, because DK would have done too much damage otherwise. So the entire intention for those modifiers back in the day was to reduce the amount of damage DK does. So it still makes sense that our modifiers would be low, considering the base amount of damage we dish out.
    Now if we are looking at the damage a succession DK does, you really cannot argue its too low. DK has other issues, like bugged protections and slow, rooted skills in awakening, but damage really isnt the issue here.
    Yes awakening still lacks damage in some situations, but even in awakening we can combo people quite well. While we dont have nukes in awa like prime enforcement or prime lunacy, we do have ranged attacks with high damage and more stamina sustain. So yea. Imo damage is not the thing any DK needs to complain about at this point. We need changes in how skills/ protections work, not another 10% damage buff on a skill that already chunks people.
     
  4. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Dark Knight/sorcerer..That would work.
     
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  5. SkullMonkey

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    I do agree that Succession is in a good place. I disagree a bit with Awakening. Most DKs will say that awakening hits very weakly compared to most other ranged classes unless you hit a very high AP. Compare it to Archer for instance who has multiple high damage ranged skills with KDs etc. I feel DK awakening needs to be brought up to be on par with that. While Archer hits hard and CCs he's incredibly squishy so he fits the glass cannon role very well. DK however only has a couple of useful skills in awakening that do decent damage. It really needs some love. I agree a flat damage increase might not be the best solution, but perhaps some skill damage increases to the less effective skills and protection added to certain skills.

    Adding stiffen back to spirit hunt, Returning Super Armor to Twilight dash, returning frontal guard to trap of vedir and changing the stiffen back to a KD on seed of catastrophe are some changes that come to mind but I'm curious what other people think would be effective changes. I also think "Touch of Exploitation" and "spirit blaze" could be completely reworked. Touch of exploitation is mostly useless IMO as it's too slow and clunky to be used in PvP and it's barely useful in PvE. Spirit blaze is a bit faster but has lackluster damage for PvP and it's flow skill is too slow to be used in a PvP situation so it's again pretty useless. Adding some kind of CC to grip of grudge and increasing it's range would also make that skill more useful.... speaking of which are there any animation cancels for grip of Grudge?
     
    #5 SkullMonkey, Jul 1, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  6. SkullMonkey

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    I mean I would support that idea but I think it's highly unrealistic. I mean the other idea they could do is to make Succession and Awakening Perform different roles. Like Warrior pre-awakened could be a hardcore tank build and Awakened could be your Big Damage DPS/raid breaker. You could do the same for Valk and Guardian swap the PA from wiz/witch to those tank build versions of the classes. Wiz witch could be Healing/Support vs ranged DPS (basically cleric vs mage). You could go down the line for the rest of the classes in similar fashion. That could actually be potentially implemented without completely reworking the entire race/class system. Still a big overhaul tho.
     
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  7. MADE

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    LMAO those numbers like they would do a /roll and adjust it with the number they got :D
     
  8. Hearts

    Hearts Valkyrie 62 EU

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    This game development is over, most of the dev team is probably on Crimson Desert. You really think they would do big changes ? No way.
     
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  9. Kaitreen

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    They care? You need to open your eyes. The way they released guardian puts mystic release to shame. Jeebus ..

    You cant say they care about doing too much damage.
     
  10. Deyric

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    That is lacking some specific history on the class modifiers that Minarya pointed out.
     
  11. SkullMonkey

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    Well they do because if people don't reroll to the new Flavor of the Month OP class they don't make money on costumes, inventory, weight and horse whistles. Hence why they keep DK nerfed hoping to get people to roll off of it and onto the new OP class. That's an interesting theory. Basically they need a potato class that sucks and frustrates people so they want to roll off of it and onto the new FTM class. So basically you're both right. So by that logic until those KR players roll off of their DKs we're stuck with DK being an armchair class. But who knows maybe Seasons will counter that to a degree.
     
  12. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Would it be difficult? Just tie certain skills to weapons, Allow people to "dual wield" which means they can sacrifice the off hand stats for a class weapon that doesent apply stats, but instead gives them access to put skill points in that weapons skills. So like a dk could wield a scyth and get sorc awakening options, a ranger could uses a great bow and use archer main skills, etc.
     
  13. SkullMonkey

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    It's not as simple as that. They have volumes of code tied to all of these skills with very tight gender specific animations tied to each move. Timing balance. There is so much code wrapped into each class that what you are proposing would take millions of dollars of development time which they simply will not do because their budget is allocated towards developing new games and maintaining/balancing/adding new events for this one.

    Major changes to the game simply won't happen. You have to think economically with your suggestions and what is possible as they simply won't do anything major to change the game. Remember First and foremost Kakao and Pearl Abyss are profit based corporations. Their officers and investors aren't gamers they aren't thinking " how can we make this game more fun to play?" They're thinking "whats the least amount of money we can spend to keep people playing this game and spending more money on it?" And if it's currently making solid revenue they're going to go by the adage "If it ain't broke don't try to fix it!" Even my suggestion of making Succ and Awakening fill different PvP roles like Tank Vs DPS is too much of a coding investment for them to sink the time and money into.

    The best we can hope for is minimal tweaks.
     
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  14. MADE

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    Yeah, the animation are one per class basics due to architectural design issues from the start. In wow, they could easily allow any class to use any spell/weapon/attack, heck if you give the spells to them, they can use it right anyway, as the character models are designed to be modular (as it should be in a mmo) and so the animations are there already.
    But in bdo, it would cost loots and loots of time, and so money to make it work.
     
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  15. Vortexii

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    We are always trying to figure out ways to lessen the burdens of enhancement for our players.
    we've always struggled to find the right balance.


    You might not be aware Pearl Abyss is trolling it's own customers and are quite humorous about their very boisterous lies.

    Also anything you have to say about DK applies to Witch, but is even more of a problem. There will never be any resolutions or answers to fundamentally flawed game design. The reason DK was so OP upon release is that it simply cheated the system by allowing things like constant bouncing and Iframe.

    It was NEVER good game design in the slightest. Nor is it today, nor will it ever be.
     
  16. SkullMonkey

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    Well I don't necessarily disagree with your assessment of Pearl Abyss. I can see Awakening witch getting a buff to some of their skills but overall they are still incredibly effective in PvP even in awakening because of PA and other group play mechanics. Their Forward F skill has crazy range and stiffens people at a distance for your raid so you can go in and mop up and it has huge AOE so it's not really the same thing. I'm not sure if you still can do it now but I remember people building DP witches that could face tank damage and just CC, heal and PA people all day. Awakened DK doesn't really have any of that. Basically if you're an awakened DK with 290+ AP you can help dps people from a distance over 301 AP you can 1 or 2 shot people at a distance. Other than that you gotta play succ DK to be effective in PvP.
     
  17. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    the fact that succ wizards need nerf, or ninjas or whatever, doesnt mean that dk needs buffs. the damage and the output of it it can pump is mega high.
     
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  18. Vortexii

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    It depends on the situation. Yes Protected Area + Heals is OP in a group setting, but when it comes to solo play they have absolutely nothing. The only reason they are second to last is because Shai is completely defective in PVP.

    So Pearl Abyss messed up so bad that Succession Wizard is OP 1v1 and Witch Succession is essentially the worst 1v1 class in the game............... told you they where trolling.

    Also tanking is generally just impossible now especially DR builds. It's to easy to access the bonus AP which currently has no counter. Every time they add a book with +1 AP +1DP, the AP just destroys it. Additionally, with things like Distortion Rings make TET OP as hell you simply can't complete.
     
  19. Spartakatz

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    you can't just look at the modifiers.

    they have developed the classes while using the existing modifiers, and put certain dmg % on skills. on top, every skill has a hidden pvp modifier on it that nobody sees.

    so having that in mind, you got overall a 10-20% damage buff. it doesn't matter if the modifier is still lower than others.

    succ DK is one of the craziest damages out there currently and it just got buffed, you must be kidding...
     
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  20. SkullMonkey

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    Well I did update my post if you read the second portion I acknowledge that and instead focus on how to fix just the awakening portion of the equation. I really don't like playing Succ DK and want Awakening to be on an equal level to succ or at least close to it (as succ might need a nerf).

    EDIT: I just updated the Original Post to remove the first portion so people don't TLDR; it after the first part and not read the updated section.
     
    #20 SkullMonkey, Jul 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
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