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Does it add up (PEN enchant)

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by 2Cents, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. 2Cents

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    Pearl Abyss set the Caphra price at 1 million each and set the amount.of Caphras needed for each stage.
    Is this formula consistent with the price of upgrading TET - PEN with Cron Stones?

    In other words on average would these methods cost the same amount to upgrade to a PEN item?

    Would this reveal a more accurate rate on PEN attempts and what is the percentage based on this calculation?
     
  2. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 63

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    No player can answer this and PA hate giving out stats/concrete numbers.
     
  3. 2Cents

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    This isn't all speculation. It's math based upon the information we already have. For example you can calculate the exact cost of upgrading TET - PEN based on (x) cost of Caphras.

    If it costs 16B in Caphras @1m each you can compare that to how many Crons attempts you would get.
     
  4. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 63

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    I'm saying:
    -The information we have cannot be used to prove or verify if the cost in cron stones and cost in caphras is equal because it would be like assuming apples are fruits and they are red, therefore oranges must be red too because they are fruit too.
    -The information we have cannot tell if on average these methods cost the same to upgrade a PEN item.
    -The information we have cannot reveal a more accurate rate on PEN attempts or the percentage based on above calculations.

    For all we know, the price could have been arbitrarily set; no law of physics prefers the scenario where the developers just rolled a die to decide how many caphras for each level. Therefore, the idea that the caphras requirement may reveal PEN enhancement rates on boss items (green was already datamined before) is absurd.
     
  5. 2Cents

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    I agree with that, except for what can be extracted. For example it's been stated Caphra's are a stable way to upgrade, yet more costly. The basic stats on how many cron attempts you would get at the same cost may disprove that.

    If the calculation aligns with the charts already created for PEN attempts it would add a layer to help establish the numbers are fairly accurate.
    I think it's a mistake to say you can't learn anything from the math because it may be arbitrary.
     
  6. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 63

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    Any conclusions drawn from it would just be tinfoil. Just like...just because Ninja and Kuno are both flank classes and start with the same preawakening mainhand doesn't make their dps tuned the same. The developers do not need to balance two ways of doing the same thing in the game necessarily.

    The only way to gauge PEN enhance rates is to sit with a character on every channel, now record the PEN attempts of every player, compile this data into something we can use to analyze the rates, and do a thorough statistical analysis to get median attempt counts, average attempt counts, standard deviations, etc. Don't forget, you will have to whisper everyone to ask them what failstack they used for more accurate data. Also you will need at least 100,000 sample size to have reliable results. Good luck.
     
  7. ambyentlight

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    Its actually far more exspencive that any pen enhancement, but they placed it in game to give the non hacker/exploiter/botter people hope and to keep them in game.
     
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  8. Lemon Crush

    Lemon Crush CreamLemon Witch 62 NA

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    You are forgetting that by using the stones to go to PEN you have 10 levels roughly left over so your PEN isn't just base PEN.

    Those 10 levels you got on your PEN = over 10b I believe.

    The cost is worth it is basically what I am getting at.
     
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  9. 2Cents

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    That isn't correct.

    be warned, this will reduce Durability to 0 and reset the Caphras Level

    My proposed prior suggestion corrects this defect in the system. People will lose to many Caphra if they give up or attempt to enchant the equipment. Progress can be halted for months even years if your doing it efficiently. You basically need to enchant to PEN before using any Caphra and that destroys the entire progression system. A sloppy Pay2Win $15,000 isn't a viable solution nor is trying to out grind this or find hacks around the RNG system.

    The solution is to remove your Caphra so an enchant may be attempted. That way you can progress in Caphra Levels without taking huge risks. This would also help for people to change their class or play alts. A small money sink could also be applied. 5k per Caphra or 2 million silver extraction cost etc.
     
    #9 2Cents, Sep 22, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  10. Rizzly

    Rizzly Berserker 62 EU

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    That's bullsheit. It's 10% so 1800 stones. That's not even level 3 for pen dande lul
     
  11. Dreadhood

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    Isn't the average pen success at 15+ attempts? (With proper FS).
    So i believe the cron stones and caphras stones are pretty much similar

    I do not have the math for it, but i heard it multiple times that it's around 15-20 attempts for a pen.
     
  12. Warp Rider

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    I think its pretty obvious what they WANT us to do. Spend money on crons to get to pen. Spend money to buy caphras stones to get +pen.

    Not wanting to spend anymore actual money. I may use caphras to get to tets, and then try pen the ole' fashion way, dunno
     
  13. Srich

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    well i spent 28 pen try with crones on my nouver plus 5 pen try with boss armor..fs are 140 so i would have over 300 fs by now in normal enchanting.. My pen dandelion succed at the 31th try and zarka at 7th... I would say 20 attemps for a pen at min so these 16 b to make a safe pen are a very optimistic point of wiew to enchant your pen.
     
  14. Sibyyl

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    Edit: misread

    My b
     
    #14 Sibyyl, Sep 22, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  15. 2Cents

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    This data helps. In the end I think players will split into 2 directions. The most efficient route is enchanting PEN the RNG method simply because you can't obtain enough Caphra to make this viable even if it was much cheaper. The cost is also questionable because 1m isn't really a fair assessment of the Caphra value and pre order can easily double the cost. The other direction will be players that simply won't wait months/years for a PEN and begin using Caphra on TET.
     
  16. Lemon Crush

    Lemon Crush CreamLemon Witch 62 NA

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    Ya you are right I was wrong its only 50% if you enchant to PEN normally
     
  17. Rysingmoon

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    Interesting question. But I would not use Caphras to enhance a TET weapon, anyway.

    If I were to make a guess: comparing the costs of Caphras it should be by a factor 1.5 to 2 more expensive, assuming the devs don't want to introduce imbalance in the enchanting system. Using Caphras on a TET will immediately improve the weapon - that's an advantage. You get better stats more early and continuously until finally reaching the point where you can PEN it.

    Calculating the costs for enchanting from TET to PEN is difficult because we don't have exact data. I fear, the old tables are not accurate.

    Here is a rough estimation what we get when not using Cronstones:


    Required FS:

    1 FS90 (TET -> PEN) 15%, 7 attempts, 6 fails
    8 FS70 (TRI -> TET) 19.5%, 40 attempts, 32 fails
    40 FS40 (DUO -> TRI) 25%, 160 attempts, 120 fails
    160 FS30 (PRI -> DUO) 30%, 500 attempts, 340 fails

    I can only estimate the costs for FS30: roughly 10 Mil,each
    Ideally, the costs of repair covers the other, higher FSs.

    Repair costs: roughly 1 Mil per Durability
    Durability: 10x(6 + 32 + 120 + 340) = 5000

    Concentrated Stones: 7 + 40 + 160 + 500 = 700

    So, 5000 Mil for repair, 1600 Mil for FS 30, 2800 Mil for Concentrated Stones (Weapon)
     
    #17 Rysingmoon, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  18. 2Cents

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    The average player simply isn't going to get a PEN by RNG without taking months or possibly years. It's also a mess with such a huge range. That PEN could cost 1B - 100B+. I can see people using Caphras after failing 22 consecutive PEN attempts.

    The stack is a very important part of the cost calculation. A 100+ FS is not easy to obtain and quite expensive. The value gets exponentially higher until it reaches the peak bonus for PEN. I think your estimate is to low. The chance of PEN is also probably around 3 - 6%

    Ultimately the real issue is by the time you acquire 16,000 Caphra's you would probably make over 25B, even 100B depending on how it's done and where. So technically the best method would be to RNG enchant it, but for casual players to either sell their Caphra or use them on TET. Since they can use the additional progression and will probably never get PEN.
     
  19. Rysingmoon

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    I used the old, well known tables. I forgot to add the costs for concentrated stones, so I edited my previous post. If the chance for PEN is lower, but all other chances are about OK, then the costs must be multiplied by the ratio. If you say PEN chances is 7%, then the costs are roughly the double amount.

    Until TET, the costs and the listed chances are roughly that what I have experienced. Though, my own data with a couple TETs is too low, to make any assumptions.

    And yeah - looking at my own resources, I am probably at 5% to 30% of one PEN :)
     
  20. Spartakatz

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    what nonsense comparisons. where are the free 100+ FS that are the basis of PEN enchanting? apparently you value their costs with zero, interesting.
     

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