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EUNA feedback degradation.

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Loriel, Jun 24, 2019.

  1. Loriel

    Loriel Witch 62

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    I'm going to pull out a bit sensitive topic. But it has to be spoken. And everything will be according to forum rules. still !! i have to warn you. I'm going to be pretty critical. if you don't like negative post i recommend you stop right there. Seriously.

    let's begin with last improvement from patch notes:
    • You can now interact with NPCs while riding a donkey, horse, camel, miniature elephant, or heilang.
      • Interactions are only available during mount standby and walking. Interaction is not available during Horseback Combat.

      • Interaction (R) that require change of motion such as greeting is not possible while mounted.
    This reminds me how they "improved" swimming.. This suggestions comes from @Andaro feedback library. How are this suggestions handled ? Someone on discord said hey i would to use different keybinds for swimming. Instead of making proper solution and gives everyone option to bind keys. We have.. well some people like it, some don't. So i'm not going to say it's necessary bad.

    but...

    Now we can interact with NPCs while riding. well.. i would not say we can instead i would say it we have to.. even if we dont want. I'm talking about fact that instead of dismount i have to talk with every s** guard near by in city and move away so i can dismount. Look if you think its good idea.. fine. whatever but why don't you gives us option to turn it off.. ?

    Please correct me if i'm wrong... i was searching patch notes for any mention about disable option.

    I just don't get it. There are real issues that could be improved/bugs/hacks.(i can't for example image how do you plan to bring back SA when grind spots are still occupied by speed hackers) There are completely ignored. and instead you are sending PA c*** from @Andaro feedback library that in most cases only breaking things that works absolutely fine. and i don't even talk here about improved transport and improved witch skill that in result caused one of our skill completely useless and permanently locked.

    With all respect [suggestion library and winning ideas] doesn't work. Doesn't matter how much effort and good intentions you put into it. Look at history of winning ideas its 90% ****. (i'm not saying there aren't good ideas absolutely not) But so far result is bad. And i can't even describe my disappointment every week when i'm excited about improvements and than i find game even more broken than before.

    I really feel like the really good improvements to this game comes from devs itself ?! Maybe..different regions.. im not sure ?! but definitely not from eu/na library nad winning ideas.

    And don't call me hater coz i speak to you will all honesty. I can even give you few constructive advices. Which we can discuss here:

    1) Andaro's library should not be only one source of ideas. There are regular forum posts with good ideas.
    2) Community should vote for winning ideas.
    3) Whoever you decide to implement something new give us option to turn it back if possible.

    Let me know what you think guys and girls... How do you like recent changes ? What do you think about feedback library ? Maybe it's just me ? I'm really wonder...
     
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  2. Andaro

    Ambassador

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    Just to point out a couple notes:

    -> there was a suggestion to allow changing the inputs of Swimming to player choice inputs (i.e. rebind the keys to your preferred keys)

    -> the mount interaction key inputs is a new issue, and we have scheduled the suggestion for Julys QoL poll, per various sources of the suggestion

    -> suggestions *are* voted on by the community before they goto the main index (assuming they pass the poll)

    -> those suggestions and reports which did not make a monthly poll are still catalogued in document and accessible to CM staff to review (as they may find things that we may miss)

    -> regardless of what suggestion goes forward, it is upto PA to implement and determine how to implement, if implemented

    -> the Library is *an additional source*, not the only source, and the Staff do still review all sources (forums, reddit, discords, tickets, steam, etc) as they have always done

    OwO
     
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  3. PurplePumpkin

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    I think the library is a good way to gather and catalog ideas to make it easy for Kakao to send feedback to PA. If it's easier to do than they are more likely to do it. For better or worse (depending on your opinion) it feels like we're actually being listened to now. I only wish they could make it to where the polls can be given in game so that more people would do them. Maybe send out a global mail to all players telling them about it each month? The more people that do it, the better the polls reflect what the wider community wants.
     
  4. MeldamirieI

    MeldamirieI Rilma Ranger 62 NA
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    It's as Andaro said. We at the FL never wanted to take away from other sources, but rather to supplement what is in place already. Suggestions from other sources are still taken into consideration, and they are always appreciated!

    Well, in regards to doing the announcements, I've personally been posting over the new surveys into the Kakao Games discord so that they are visible to the community members who have joined us in the official discord.
     
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  5. CM Goodvibesguy

    Community Manager

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    Hey there,

    We have heard feedback regarding the interaction hotkey sharing the same key as dismounting and have passed the concerns on to the developers.

    An additional note to clarify things; the Feedback Library is not the sole source of suggestions and feedback from the NA/EU community. It is merely one tool of many we utilize to gather data and it is weighed equally among them. No one is forced to use the Library and everyone is more than welcome to post their suggestions and feedback to the forums which are also regularly checked a great source of information for us.
     
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  6. Loriel

    Loriel Witch 62

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    Alright in that case it would be great. P.S. Matchlock need same rework. Spacebar for kneel sux.

    This need just one checkbox. It was absolutely fine so keep this new feature only for people who suggested that. its simple as that. really really simple.. everyone will be happy.

    Now correct me if i'm wrong but there we talk about your doc. surveys ? Maybe i miss something. So feel free to add more details.

    Question is if someone looking into it. maybe yes maybe no. In my eyes it's like store documents in shredder.

    Well developers don't determine how to implement things. They just receive task and they do it exactly how its written. Suggestion about this interaction to NPC from horses is exactly what was suggested on discord. So there you have it.

    And there i dare to strongly disagree with you.

    Your library is only source.
    Other forum post are ignored.
    Reddit even worse than official forum except you decide to put it to library.
    Discords.(so plural). well i know only one -> your discord pretty much as forum. its up to you and your discord only.
    Tickets.. recently i wrote one ticket. I have received pretty much automatic response it will be handled by bug team and that's it.. but reality is who knows...but i probably know...

    Either way... Thanks for answer. I appreciate your effort and as i said i have no doubts about your good intentions. But it's how it is. And i'm really wonder. Are you personally happy about how suggestions are picked and implemented ? And what if someone is not happy about how you picked suggestions ? No offence.. Its just truth.

    EDIT:
    Well at least this post catch your attention. Maybe i'm wrong. But this is how I feel. And i'm pretty sure i'm not the only one.

    to @Andaro @MeldamirieI @CM Goodvibesguy
    And thanks for replies i was expecting another monolong.
     
    #6 Loriel, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
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  7. Asterotis

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    Then why does Andaro restrict access to the surveys to only people that use that discord?
    (Or vouch for his friends from RP servers to give them ambassador?)

    Why is there a selective bias toward certain members and the selections placed there overall?

    If these "surveys" are indicative of the communities wants, why don't they use a bigger survey size by using the forums/Reddit? As it stands data is skewed, especially when it comes to things like class balance, pvp etc.
     
    #7 Asterotis, Jun 24, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2019
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  8. Blitzball

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    I'm sure kakao send feedbacks.

    But developers doesn't care and pick what they want. Look at class balance zzz
     
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  9. MeldamirieI

    MeldamirieI Rilma Ranger 62 NA
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    Actually, I took a look at the library thread and it doesn't look like anything is restricted to only people in the discord. In fact, it's pinned in General Gameplay. I don't see how this is restricting the polls to only members of the discord, or limiting the survey size. As I mentioned before before you posted, I've been posting the surveys to the KakaoGames discord as well. As for reddit? I'll have a talk with one of the mods there to see if they'd be willing to post them up.
     
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  10. Asterotis

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    I'll just quote this, because you aren't looking hard enough:


    You quite literally have to join a discord, to get priority access to a survey which is a small survey size out of a huge community. Suggestions were already posted in that thread (And seemingly dismissed) as to how to alleviate what seems to be a bias since not everyone wants to use discord,
     
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  11. Silowyi

    Silowyi Wizard NA

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    I have to agree to this 100%. We as the customers always look at ways to improve the game in ways that benefit us, and to make a more enoyable environment for the community. On the other hand, Developers do exact the same thing for themself. Except there is no fun or balance in any of those decisions. It is why they always seem to skip suggestions and ideas provided by the community and only do what they want and try to justify it with the same old "We are doing the best we can for the greater good of the game. Yet we are here watching everything fall apart.
     
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  12. Andaro

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    I think you may have misunderstood that, so let me clarify OwO. Yes, discord users get first dibbs, but that's just to promote the discord, but no user is restricted from our surveys or publications and the time between discord message and forum message update is pretty small.

    It's easy to post a @LibraryCard. Announcement with link right after having finished a survey....forum thread I prefer to take more time to write things out with longer messages.

    So while discord users may get the links quicker, they also get short less full messages. Additionally when starting this shindig, everyone gave feedback about how no one visited the forums, or that traffic to the surveys was less on the forum than other avenues.....and unfortunately that is quite true, as discord has a higher constant user traffic.

    When making a forum thread, I prefer to spruce it up a little and make it look nice, which takes a bit more effort and time....rather than just "dumping" everything into a thread and saying "here you go".

    Regardless, No user is left out and certainly not restricted in any way, shape, form, or fashion. Our documents will always be made available on the forum, and other platforms.

    Now, unfortunately I can't do anything about users in-game that neither use the forum, discord, reddit, nor steam. Anything that is in-game has to come from the developers, and we are merely a community ran group. At the beginning I was spamming megaphones in game, but sadly I am not made of megaphones....so we have to work with what we have.
     
    #12 Andaro, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  13. Yulanda

    Yulanda Sorceress 61

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    The Library is a good idea, and credit to those involved, it’s more than you see with many other MMO’s including ones larger than BDO.

    The Library is however just a repository for ideas and gathering feedback and a collated means to share those ideas. If the implementation of an idea isn’t that great, not really @Andaro and the Teams’s fault.

    I think it’s one of those things that if we want the Library to be representative, then we need to contribute not only to the ideas, but to the surveys and conversations when they happen.

    (I also agree with the sentiment that I’m not a massive fan of everything being done via Discord these days but I’m getting old and grumpy so...)
     
    #13 Yulanda, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  14. Loriel

    Loriel Witch 62

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    But point is this discord is exactly problem.

    There may be more suggestions but most of them are simple and stupid.
    its just chat. its like:
    -Hey, give us interaction with NPC on horses lol..
    -rofl funny idea..
    -hehe ok lets add it to library.

    and proper suggestions that address real improvements are lost in mess of these c*.

    on forum suggestions can be discussed and you can clearly determine if its even good idea or not.. on discord suggestions just fill your library like ***.

    And let's be real other platforms are ignored. unless you and only you decide to bother yourself to read it and add it to library. But you prefer discord coz its easy..

    Please don't try to fool me.Everything is on discord now (Andaros's monopol) and its quantity over quality. Thats one or the main reason why i created this thread why we have this bad updates.
     
    #14 Loriel, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  15. Andaro

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    In the end, and when all is said and done... ^this.
    Regardless of what does or doesn't go forward, and regardless of what does or doesn't happen, that is ultimately what this program is - a repository of collected feedback and aggregated opinions. It was never our mission to achieve results or lead the battle in changes, but to catalogue and organize incoming opinions into a fluent and easily searchable index for whenever the idea-well runs dry and those that create content go spelunking for ideas.

    Ultimately we recognized that that players feedback from all the various sources had a tendency to get lost and clouded by the melodrama from everyone fighting with each other rather than sticking together and voicing their concerns in an organized and well presented manner, and we recognized how difficult it was for those that collect feedback to have to wade through the swampy quagmire of "mess" that we players create, to get to the real information.

    Looking back over the past 15 years of my personal gameplay experience, I have probably made countless amounts of idea posts for various games, and the one thing I have always found to remain consistent is that you don't always get what you want..... nine times out of ten, you get some oddly twisted version of what you suggested....and I've always been ok with that because I recognize that I am not a developer and for better or for worse the developer has to be the one to create for their game and all we can hope to do is be a guiding light when they need one.

    I think most of the emotion on our side comes from our love of the game we play and wanting to see it grow as if it were our own, ultimately because it becomes a part of our lives and ourselves, and that is admirable. But I also believe that when we get to a point where we are trying to change too much that which we have become addicted to, something becomes lost, and it's no longer something we love for what it is, but something try to love by changing it more and more.



    A lot of ideas are simple, and I have seen my fair share of "dumb ideas" as well....but strangely enough, sometimes its the weird and quirky ideas that lead to interesting developments, and ultimately it is not up to one person or another to determine what is or is not acceptable.....which is why our process includes a democratic voting procedure for what is showcased in our Main Index.

    While it is true that quite a number of odd-ball suggestions have been implemented or have gotten their debut on Global Labs as the result of simple conversations from within the discord (the T1 Node GearScore Suppression Caps were one of them), that is because someone obviously saw something they liked and decided to run with it. We do have a member of the PA KR Staff with us, as well a Mgr from Xbox, in addition to multiple CMs and GMs from Kakao. We try our best to make it easy for them to be able to collect information when they go looking for it, and if we can do at least that much, I think we've done what we set out to do.

    We actually have some very deep discussions within the discord, probably more so that we do on the forum, but I will admit that is because we enforce participation rules in the discord that are very strict and do not allow the typical personal fighting and mudslinging that goes on here in the forum. We promote talking about the subject itself, and not about the person holding the subject, and we are pretty tyrannical about that, and I'm quite open about enforcing that kind of constructive and professional atmosphere. It is indeed censorship, but the good kind that promotes a healthy environment rather than the oppressive kind that promotes a bad one.

    And no, I am sorry, but I will have to tell you that you are incorrect - mainly because having worked alongside some of the CM Team now for awhile, I can truthfully vouch that they do read other platforms for feedback. I won't name fingers or point names, but the staff have been hiding in many of the community discords for quite some time (some haven't been hiding, they just sit quietly). One CM reads Reddit like a morning newspaper, ....Two CMs (and you can see them online) read the forums every morning when they come into office (one of them likes to play Pineapple Pen)......the Black Desert Discord which has been open since launch, Bellcord, MaoMao Fishing Discord, Horse Trainers Community Discord, BDO FR Discord, BDO ES Discord, several class discords, Global Lab, ....they pretty spread out.


    Now back in my day, the forums were all we had, and pretty much everyone used them...but we also had a very robust mod team that were pretty adamant about upholding etiquette when engaging with other users....we were very....censor heavy, and things folks get away with in 2019 we didn't even dream of back then. But that doesn't really work so well nowadays because even when you start moderating forum topics which technically violate forum rules, everyone wants to light a bonfire about being censored...so...what can ya do?

    But I will tell you this much. If there is a forum topic that you "believe" is "being ignored", or you'd simply like some input on....by all means ping me, or any of the Ambassadors, and for sure we'll check it out - for that, you have my word.
     
  16. GreyRebel

    GreyRebel DarkKnight 62 EU

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    i dont think @Andaro representing us , it never felt like it, and tbh i think the current @Andaro liberary isnt what we r asking , it doesnt adress even 1% of what people really want , there so many great suggestions and ideas in the suggestion sections , so many things needs to be fixed , the liberary is a joke, look at the past ones , are those suggestions really what people want ? . i think the way he thinks is like like what 1% of the community thinks

    edit : dont get me wrong , i appreciate the time he puts in for those , but i think we need an ambassador who thinks more like a player and less like a pa staff , beside the current ambassadors we have we need 1 more to be choosen by players in the forum
     
    #16 GreyRebel, Jun 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
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  17. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    First and foremost:

    -Forums should be the main hub (at least for suggestions). Always.
    -Main bdo website should be the main news hub.

    Discord, facebook,tweeter, reddit, launcher krap,w/e should be fed with the news/articles/threads/ideas and not have things on reddit/facebook/library that are not on the forums.

    Suggestions that get submitted to library discord should be copied to the suggestions sub-forum so people can discuss them.
    Important threads on reddit that get an official GM/CM response should be copied or even just screenshoted and pasted on bdo official forums.


    As it is now, we, as "gamers", have to monitor a lot of different platforms just for 1 game.
    In the case of bdo for me: Main website, main forums, reddit, our clans discord, our classes discord, library discord, lifeskill discord, traders discord, 2 more servers created by friends for their rl friends that some of them play bdo aswell in other guilds than mine, occasionally official kakao discord. And if i had accounts, i would also have to check facebook and tweeter.
    That is already a krapload of "work".

    Although i understand that you are referring to personal attacks and trash talking here, there is something that needs to be taken into account.
    And that something is the person who is posting, and most importantly his gear, his activities and the way he plays the game.
    When i post a suggestion, or respond with an opinion i try to give a background of the activity or playstyle that shaped that suggestion.

    Players at different stages of the game(less than 200ap, 235ap, softcap, hystria level, 280ap underwater spot level), players with different main activities (cp and energy builders/hunters, lifeskillers, grinders, pvpers, explorers, questers) and players with different active and afk uptimes (weekend warriors, 24/7 afkers, 2hs/day, 4hs/day, no lifers) have way different experiences one from another. And from these 3 silly categories with a total of 17 different sub categories we can see that there are way to many backgrounds which shape opinions and suggestions.
    And whether we like it or not these things need to be taken into consideration.
     
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  18. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    what do we have to do to get another 10 hotkeys? (one hotkeybar extra)

    tried suggestions, tried global labs discord,.... so whose ass do i have to lick for this simple feature to be implemented?
     
  19. Angar

    Angar Angar Archer 61 EU

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    the same one left handed people have to lick to get the ability to rebind all keys for both ui and skills so they can finally participate competitively in pvp
     
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  20. crosspath

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    Is freaking stupid that I now have to be checking if there are herbs on the spot i dismount from my horse, cause pressing R over any gatherable item makes nothing and you have to move away.

    Also in order to speak with NPCs while on horse you have to basically be fully stopped and facing them, so you spend more time maneuvering with your horse than dismounting and talking with the NPC.

    Another useless change that brings more trouble than utility. Seriously...
     
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