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Fix Game Economy and ingame inflation

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by LightsOut, Aug 6, 2018.

  1. LightsOut

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    Fix Game Economy and ingame inflation


    1. Abstract
    Black Desert Online (BDO) is an MMO in which the economy revolves mostly around a player auctioned marketplace with imposed MIN and MAX prices for each item listing by the game designers. The marketplace has one very important feature, namely pre-orders which allow buyers to compete for valuable items, offering prices higher than the MAX listing price allowed by the game. Players can earn silver by doing various activities in the game world, and can later use it to purchase items from in-game NPC's or other players via the Marketplace. The game allows no free (direct player to player) trade in order to prevent "gold sellers" and real money trading.

    2. The problem
    The servers in EU/NA have existed for almost 2 and a half years as of writing this post, and for the most part prices of items on the Marketplace have been stable over the first 2 years of the game, but in 2018, we are seeing a sharp increase in pricing of virtually anything. In August 2018 the game is experiencing an unseen level of inflation that keeps raising daily, which combined with the limitations of the Marketplace where MIN and MAX listing prices are imposed by the game designers, makes it almost impossible for players to exchange value over the marketplace.

    This is hurting the overall game experience as players struggle to progress as well as potentially hurting Kakao / Pearl Abyss 's direct income as people are less inclined list pearl items onto the marketplace as silver continues to devalue. Over the last 6 months we have already seen a drastic decline in the amount of Value Packs and character costumes listed on the marketplace.


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    3. The cause
    As with any real life inflation the cause is simply:
    SILVER IN > SILVER OUT while supply of gear / events is more or less constant.

    3.1 Silver Generation

    During the development and expansion of the game, the game designers have been introducing more and more lucrative grinding areas, making certain aspects of the game easier to get into (for example trading buff moved to Artisan 2 instead of Master 2). Meanwhile players have developed their life skills, increased their grinding efficiency due to having better gear, leveled up their trading empires and found out ways to earn massive amounts of silver which the game designers probably didn't mean to be used in that way (sea monster hunting).

    Main sources of raw silver (most to least silver generated for the economy):

    - Sea monster hunting
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    - Trash / trade-in loot from grinding
    - Trading (Incl. Fishing & Imperial)
    - Guild Payouts (Mostly sea monster hunting guild payouts). Also used for Real money trading.
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    - Weekly Tax Wagon

    3.2 Money Sinks

    Unfortunately except for introducing the Night Vendor & Villa buffs nothing much has changed in terms of "Money Sinks" since BDO's initial release. The ways silver is removed from the game are very limited and mostly revolve around the Night Vendor, Pre orders, General Vendors and Villa buffs.

    Main money sinks currently in the game:
    - Pre-orders
    - Market tax
    - Night Vendor
    - Cron Stones
    - Villas / Buffs
    - General Vendors (Potions, Seeds, Mushrooms, Fruits, Materials, etc.)
    - Repairs

    3.3 Gear / Enhancement items supply

    The overall supply of accessories and enhancement materials (black stones / memory fragments) has been steadily increasing due to buffs to the monster drop rates as well as quicker grinding, but so has the demand. As people start pushing towards TET accessories and PEN boss gear, the demand for enhancement materials and best in slot yellow accessories has gone through the roof. The amount of supplies needed for the top geared and richest players to progress any further has become higher then what all BDO players can supply altogether. The demand is so high that even when all players receive their monthly accessory box, the market is still completely sold out.

    Main sources gear / enhancement items:

    - Grinding
    - Gathering (sharps & hards)
    - Events
    - Crafting (low end & cheap gear)


    4. The solution
    For the most part the EU/NA community agrees that in order for the BDO economy to get back to normal 3 things need to happen.
    - Decrease raw silver generation.
    - Introduce more ways people can spend silver (money sinks).
    - Increase the supply of accessories and enhancement materials.

    4.1 Suggestions to decrease raw silver generation

    4.1.1 [Suggestion] Balance sea monster hunting - disable ramming and fix ship control exploits.
    The majority of the EU/NA community agrees that "sea monster hunting" is broken and bad for the game in its current form. Skilled sailors make 100-300 million silver per hour which is roughly 500%-1000% more RAW SILVER generated than what a top geared player would generate in Hystria (just looking at raw silver). Many experienced sea monster hunters use what we consider borderline exploits and are able to rotate their ship 180 degrees in 1 second, do instant ramming and animation cancel of ship skills allowing them kill the hardest sea monsters in under 1 minute on their own. We believe this was meant to be group content and ship cannons should be used for that.

    Here is what those exploits looks like: https://clips.twitch.tv/ModernRoughLadiesPlanking

    Here is the 180 degree ship turn bug/exploit explained: https://clips.twitch.tv/MagnificentFitTarsierANELE

    4.1.2 [Suggestion] More guild rewards that encourage active game play and less raw silver.
    Guilds that own a territory, be it a node or a castle, should be rewarded proportionally. Although this does not mean they should get raw silver. I believe a balance between a reward of raw silver and increased drop rate is appropriate. Currently node owners receive pure silver only, while castle owners receive raw silver + 50% rare loot rate buff. A decrease in the raw silver reward to both nodes and castles and replacing that with a loot buff instead would bring balance to guilds income and encourage active play. Example: decrease territory owners reward by 50% and instead introduce 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% rare loot buffs for territory owners depending on the node level / castle owned.


    4.1.3 [Suggestion] Replace Tax Wagon loot with rare loot instead of raw silver.
    Remove Tax Wagon or make it drop rare loot instead (sharps/hards, marks of shadow, memory fragments, witches earrings, yellow accessories at low chance) etc. Or a mixture of silver and rare items.

    4.2 Suggestions to increase silver spending

    4.2.1 [Suggestion] Buff cron stones to encourage players to use them.

    For example - they should not be consumed when an enhancement is successful.

    4.2.2 [Suggestion] Allow players to spend silver instead of energy when talking to the Night Vendor

    4.2.3 [Suggestion] Add an NPC that sells node war / siege consumables for silver.

    4.2.4 [Suggestion] Improve the energy recovery NPC in Heidel
    Move it to a more central location.
    Decrease the cost of energy recovery slightly with wine to encourage players to use it.

    4.2.5 [Suggestion] Allow players to buy RNG Shakatu boxes for 50 million silver
    Already available in Korea

    4.2.6 [Suggestion] NPC shop for select costume, housing, horse, boat item/appearance.

    Don't make it better than the cash shop stuff per say, but enticing enough to spend money on.

    4.2.7 [Suggestion] Reset skill addons with silver instead of memory fragments.

    This can go as high as 5-10 million per skill instead of the 1 memory fragment.

    4.2.8 [Suggestion] Expensive loaded up valks cry scrolls sold by NPC.

    Max should be no more than 50 failstacks, to not break competitiveness in the higher gear brackets.

    4.2.9 [Suggestion] Make it possible to extract crystals from gear for silver.
    Allow players to extract crystals from gear at the blacksmith for 50 million silver per crystal. Geared players who spent hundreds of millions on JIN and higher grade crystals will appreciate it. Should also remove a decent amount of silver.

    4.3 Suggestions to increase supply of accessories and enhancement materials

    4.3.1 [Suggestion] Rare loot buffs for guilds that own a territory or a node.

    See 4.1.2.

    4.3.2 [Suggestion] Buff Farming - Hard and Sharp shards from harvesting & breeding
    Farmers who achieved Artisan and above can now use Magical seeds instead of regular. Those take significantly more space in your farms which makes pruning almost non existent. The idea is that players who put enough effort to get to high levels of the farming skill will have the chance to get Hard and Sharp crystal shards by Harvesting and Breeding those seeds instead of just from pruning.

    4.3.3 [Suggestion] Hard and Sharp shards drop rate buff depending on resource type.
    Rare gather-able objects should have a higher chance of obtaining Hard and Sharp shards. For example the chance of getting a Hard/Sharp from gathering a platinum node or a giant pearl oyster should be much higher than when gathering a sheep. (Which doesn't mean, nerf sheep drop rate, but rather buff the rare gather-able objects).

    4.3.4 [Suggestion] Make Laytenn hunting in the desert group content.
    Laytenn's in the desert could be turned into group content by making them similar in strength (or harder) and loot (1 drop for each party member & high chance for accessory) like the Gatekeepers. Skilled adventurers could team up and hunt them during the night providing a steady stream of Laytenn accessories to the marketplace.

    4.3.5 [Suggestion] Introduce a new monster - Giant Ogre
    In addition to the current Ogres in mansha forest (which are easy to kill and have a small chance of an ogre ring drop - which actually could be very exciting for a newbie player), add a new monster "Giant Ogre" which would be similar to the Laytenn suggestion of 4.3.4. Spread their possible spawns accross the calpheon region and make them as strong as Gatekeepers and with decent ogre ring chance. This would revive the Calpheon territory and bring old players back to those forests.

    4.3.6 [Suggestion] Craftable yellow - grade accessories
    Allow for certain best in slot yellow accessories to be crafted. We already have yona fragments and ways to craft mid tier accessories, but why not add Ogre rings, Tungrad earrings, Tungrad belts & Tungrad Necklaces? One idea would be to allow introduce soiled tungrad accessories and then let players craft 10x soiled accessories + rare materials obtained through life skills (gathering, or imperial trade ins, etc. which will engage people deeper into life skills as well as grinding) to complete an accessory via crafting.

    4.3.7 [Suggestion] Higher drop rate for top grade yellow accessories and enhancement materials.
    PA has been increasing drop rates of yellow accessories and introducing PRI / DUO drops as well and this is already helping. Unfortunately those drop rates mostly affect mid-tier yellow accessories like basilisk/centaur belts serap / sicil necklaces, as well as blue accessories. What the economy still needs is a steady influx of top grade accessories like Ogre rings, Laytenns and Tungrad accessories as well as Sharps / Hards & Black stones.

    4.3.8 [Suggestion] Make memory fragments grind profitable.
    People should be able to make money by buying shards/scrolls from the marketplace scrolls (ancient relic shards, pila fe, etc.), killing the bosses and selling the memory fragments on the marketplace.
    To achieve that increase the max price of memory fragments to ~2-3 million each and boost the drop rate of shards, valencia scrolls, and mediah books.
    Reason: ensure steady influx of memory fragments on the marketplace. The high price helps create income for lower geared players (who buy and run the scrolls) while it saves time for top geared players.

    5. Last words
    It's no secret that the BDO economy is in trouble, but we can fix it together. Just a few small changes from the developer can influence it greatly.

    If you agree this is a serious problem and want to help, please
    comment with your suggestions below or just show your support for this post by hitting the like button, so that we can hopefully bring it to the attention of Kakao & Pearl Abyss.

    Thank you.

    @CM Aethon @CM Kabz @CM Praballo @CM Richter @CM Serenity @CM Servantes @CM Yukimura

    Edits:

    08.08.2018 - added a few more notes about sea monster hunting, guild salary limits, and node owner rewards in the "Solution" section.

    08.08.2018 - Good news - We have been assured by @CM Servantes that this topic will be forwarded to the developers at Pearl Abyss next week. Please keep adding valuable input and I will edit this thread as new constructive ideas are proposed.


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    20.08.2018 - Added more community feedback as well as some of my own ideas. Formatted the post better and added some images to illustrate a few points. Added color coding.
     
    #1 LightsOut, Aug 6, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  2. RP Tzuyu

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    basically, the know-how will make less money and the newbie will quit the game
     
  3. LightsOut

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    I don't get it, please explain.
     
  4. MemeMontage

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    As you have seen my from my post I support this and highly agree with your statements. I'm not exactly sure what should be the steps taken but I agree there needs to be a fix put in place. At the end of the day I actually enjoy the content so I would still like to see some profit from doing it more in line with everything else however I can also see why a lot of people would strongly dislike it. And if PA thinks just making it some outrageous benefit so people do something that they find boring just so they say they have more "content" well I'm sorry but that is the wrong way to go about it. Sure there are plenty of us who actually enjoy it but there are also those who hate it and feel like nothing else compares to the sheer profit you can make.
     
    [TOP]-SMURT-[TOP] and LightsOut like this.
  5. DheReaper

    DheReaper Ranger 62 EU

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    Solution RNG : Weapons/Armors fail pen , accesories break ... Well they fixed it already .
     
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  6. LightsOut

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    Makes no sense. This does not fix inflation at all. Inflation is only related to silver and has nothing to do with accessories or weapons/armors. How does breaking an accessory remove silver from the game? It doesn't.
     
    [TOP]-SMURT-[TOP] likes this.
  7. Kelt Rand

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    Good thoughtful post! I agree the economy is experiencing hyper-inflation and as a result we need a lengthened period of deflation in order to re-sync the economy. I think the premise of your solutions are sound. I'd offer a few additional thoughts.

    - Remove top 1% amplifiers like Arsha, Castle Owned Nodes which is essentially doubles income for top geared players (who can afford ridiculously high preorders)
    - Nerf Monster Hunting Payouts (effort / return is simply broken)
    - Stimulate enhancing: shard events, Valks Rewards, magic tool rewards
     
    manole10, Toolzero and LightsOut like this.
  8. LightsOut

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    I agree the "top 1% amplifiers" as you called it aren't very fair to anyone else, but this post is about game economy overall and this does not hurt the overall game economy as it does not bring in silver to the game.

    Both castle 50% bonus and the Arsha 50% bonus only affect rare loot (not trash which can be turned into silver), so no new silver comes into the game from that, therefore no influence on game hyper inflation.

    As for monster hunting I already suggested that all castle payouts are removed and instead we only get a max 5 mil daily guild salary.

    Stimulated enhancing is also fine, as long as some of the silver that goes into enhancing is spent to an NPC and silver is removed from the game permanently.

    Many people think enhancing and breaking accessories help, but in reality it doesn't. All you do when you buy more accessories and more sharps/hards is moving silver from one player to another. Your spending is another player's income. Silver stays in the game and inflation rate keeps increasing. This is why I suggested to make cron stones more worth it, so people actually start enhancing using cron stones which will dump a ton of silver into the NPC's.
     
  9. Kelt Rand

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    Actually the top 1% amplifiers have a direct effect for those few players who can own the few preorders that go up given they can spend 4x of what normal players can do.

    In addition, just like currency speculators in RL they'll hoard their silver and wait for the market to normalize and then make huge purchasing gains...we can't keep enabling them to stockpile...
     
    Toolzero likes this.
  10. LightsOut

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    Actually, this is the only thing keeping the marketplace somewhat kicking. As you can imagine every time someone preorders 7 billion on an TRI Ogre ring, the seller will receive 0.845*(2.375+0.925)=2.79 billion of silver. The person who preordered it though still spent 7 billion, meaning
    7-2.79=4.21 billion silver was permanently removed from the game.

    The good thing about the preorder system is that as inflation grows, it progressively removes more silver from the game due to higher preorders, thus partially balancing the economy.

    Also, having more rare loot (even though it drops to those few up there at the 1%) increases the supply and makes it easier for everyone else to buy for example base accessories. And if someone at the top 1% has to sell 200 ogre rings to get 20 billion and then use that 20 billion to preorder a TET ogre ring, I'm fine with that, as this will remove another ~12 bil silver from the game while increasing the overall supply by 200 ogre rings.

    Sure, smart people who know how to handle money in real life will handle them well inside the game as well and will make huge profits. My aim with this post however is (as I'm quite sure you understand) to decrease the overall level of inflation within the game by reducing the total amount of silver and increasing the supply of goods on the market.
     
    [TOP]-SMURT-[TOP] likes this.
  11. Kelt Rand

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    We are probably saying the same thing. I understand the pre-order dynamic. The crux of my 1% comment is a small player base can make silver on an hour over hour base at 2 to 3x. Just remove the amplifiers to lessen the stockpile effect when the economy normalizes...
     
    LightsOut likes this.
  12. Veramia

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    The issue though is as less players grind or create said item(s), while those having too much silver for minimal effort will end up with no pre-orders at all since no one will be left to gift those players with said items. I'd rather make myself full PEN boss gear on all chars then "gift" even one piece to a millennial who only rams monsters for a living.

    In KR/JP they at least have a partial fix for that and that is Shakatu boxes, but it's a double edged sword.
     
    #12 Veramia, Aug 6, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2018
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  13. Isteria

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    As others pointed out there will be no issues with sea hunting, hystria, ect as soon as PA patch the bugs which are being exploited for abnormal gains and when they find a way to deal with all the hackers/bots. Once the game is played the way it was intended, the silver / inflation will be in the intented ranges.
     
  14. TeRRoRibleOne

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    -In all honesty, I think the longer you own a castle with the current construct you should start seeing diminishing returns, not the other way around. We all saw what happened in the past with owning a castle for long periods of time between the node war problems and the increased gear gap issue. I like the idea of the drop rate increase, I just think it starts out way too high with 50%. I think it needs to be lowered to somewhere between 10-20% in the first week and increasing every week till 50% cap. This will at least get people to actively play the game and it's been showing as of this past week. Obviously with it you would have to decrease the amount a guild gets during the week with this setup. Maybe give another sort of buff also for siege or something based on how long you own it.

    -Sea monsters are just broken. After seeing the guild funds of guilds that do it, it is broken. It's very possible for a guild who owns a castle, which pays out between 20-30b a week, to get somewhere in the range of an extra 100-150b if all members spent 5-7 hrs a week doing them. I can say this is with a straight face, there are guilds making in the range of over 200b a week with sea monsters. The end game of this game is sieging, should a mechanic like this be possibly making that much more for the same amount of work as doing nodewars every single day and then owning a castle? Obviously not. The inflation alone is hurting the current market as is.

    -Tax wagon is broken right now, and it isn't the money drops. Currently we are having guilds use their guild elephants to hit the cart. The elephants are essentially ruining tax cart. As a melee class I can't even hit it anymore without getting CC'd by stomp elephants and it's dumb. Fix that first.

    -My only other thing is the payouts from node/siege guilds USED to pretty much cover the costs for getting villas and all the consumables you would use during the week if you bought them all (which is something I do).
     
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  15. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 63

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    My only two complaints about this game is the trade/economical system not being a free market and class balance. Everything else was done well. That said, I'm not looking for a "fix" to this problem you seem to see. I don't see one aside from players not deciding the price of their enhanced item, therefore making supply and demand horribly imbalanced.
     
  16. Hemuk

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    All they need is to give us the 50M Shakatu Boxes, you'll see tons of rich mofos gambling their billions away on a chance to get a TET accesory, and in the worse case scenario; the MP will be absolutely flooded with Sharps/Hards and Meme Frags, everyone wins.

    I'm exagerating ofc, but it'd be a nice start, I'd throw a couple billions Shakatu's way for sure.
     
  17. Edanna

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    +1 to the petition. The inflation is ridiculous.
     
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  18. LORDZERG

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    I completely agree with everything listed here, PA should do something to fix the inflation.
    I'm against the 50% drop rate to castle owners (most geared players will gear up even more) The current node payment if you have normal node is too low and the nodes are too few and the smaller guilds prefer to hunt sea monsters payment and rewards from monsters are pretty good compared to nodes.
    The wagon should be removed from the game.
    About the cron stones, they should be buffed somehow to encourage ppl to use them.
    Night Vendor should sell memory fragments on bundles (1 to 5 RNG) and at higher price (8mil per bundle) everyone will buy them.

    and Drieghan when? :)
     
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  19. RageAgainst

    RageAgainst Mystic 61 NA

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    ...because if someone's armor or weapon broke, they'd have to buy a new one?
     
  20. LORDZERG

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    When you buy armor, don't you buy it from another player?? BTW when you broke your armor and if it is Dim Tree or Red Nose, do you buy another? :)
     

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