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Gambling

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by MagicalTabletopGirls, May 21, 2020.

  1. Boink

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    In my opinion government control is just paramount with those developing age. But yes there has to be some sort of responsibility to the ones that are involved with said activity. People can't blame society or government because they developed type I diabetes or lung cancer because of unhealthy choices.

    Sadly according to research most brains develop at the age of 25 some even at the 30s where they can fully comprehend risk. At what point really where the Government needs to step in.

    I adamantly suggest however to label games that definitely have gambling elements in it. For "mature" brains like myself, I fully understand why I bought this game. It has gambling elements that give the same high as me on a poker table. Also it gauges my "luck" since I'm rather superstitious as well.
     
  2. BDOMONSTER

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    oh for certain I agree that reply was to someone presenting the idea we always need government to protect us because someone might have a head injury and have problems with self control. I was just saying there need to be a reasonable limit.

    people often forget government isn’t some magical special agency it’s just a very few people who end up dictating to the rest of us how to behave. Most times those people in government are not the best or brightest and often are very subject to corruption. So it’s a fine line I want a little government control for very “obvious” issues like ensuring people under 18 can’t legally gamble but I don’t want them deciding everything because I prefer freedom to an elected monarchy or dictator.
     
  3. Vortexii

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    Very good points. I never like the general idea that other cultures simply "accept these gambling practices". It's a known phenomenon that human beings are vulnerable to gambling addictions and all the problems associated with it.

    Even if there isn't as much push back against it in their gaming community it's a serious societal problem. Just like Casino's despite how much activity Las Vegas attracts.
     
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  4. Boink

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    There are a couple of reasons why Casino and even virtual ones are subject to strict regulations and "taxes". Why most games that offer the same "mechanic" of gambling is not

    One is that most games offer these "mechanic" as part of their services or "rent". Just how you buy a token and it says no cash value to play an arcade, you are essentially renting it.
    Second, it doesn't have any value whatsoever outside its environment. Meaning that whatever you "win" of value in-game doesn't have value or equivalent to real cash.
    In any gambling environment (not underground) that offers real cash value. Anything above $10k USD is subject to IRS scrutiny. That pretty much prevents money laundering etc.

    It's a big loophole because in-game items that these services offer are just services. "Renting" the virtual goods including your character. In other words you don't "own" it. If the service closes down the only thing they liable off are the "timed" services for example value packs or subscription.
     
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  5. Vortexii

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    That isn't correct at all. It's entirely and only based upon one single issue A Power Struggle. The legislature can only laugh and cry at how absurdly wrong these things are. However, when enough money is pushed against them it's problematic for them to do what's right. If you watch any of the hearings in various countries this is blatantly obvious.

    It's no different than the Tobacco companies. Despite all the health problems they lasted years without regulations due to this same problem.

    These lobbyists argue things like they are like a pack of cards where you don't know which one you will get!!

    SURPRISE MECHANICS ANYONE?
     
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  6. Boink

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    I'm sorry if I was wrong then you will see a huge amount of lawsuits destroying companies like EA even Pearl Abyss. The U.S. doesn't have a law that covers non-taxable "services", a real LOOPHOLE.

    I don't know what country you are from but the power or $ of the lobbyist is only before the bill is drawn into a law. Where they can smash any bill. There is a new one to address some of this issue and it's still under review.
     
  7. Vortexii

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    A persons country of origin has no bearing on this issue. It's a global issue just like Tobacco. In the case of BDO just as cancerous too.

    The legislation in one form or another from each country still has debates, hearings, sessions about the topic first. That's where the slimy lobbyist's come into play.

    The issue I stated is a Real Example of what these lobbyists are trying to say to defend these horrible practices. They will pull up old laws never meant for this purpose, bias statistics, frame things incorrectly, and do whatever they can to defend these companies.

    Many are trying to claim this isn't Gambling as a way to circumvent various laws and regulations already established for it.

    It's not Gambling, it's Surprise Mechanics!!! Everyone loves a surprise!!!!!! You don't consider buying a pack of Poke cards gambling do you? Well same thing applies here!!! You are just winning FUN!!!! Chance FUN!!!! RNG FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Everyone loves a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!

    The law suits are irrelevant. I'm sure 100,000's+ of suits have been filed against these sleeze bag companies (like Pearl Abyss & Kakao). However, the overall point is everyone KNOWS it's WRONG. The reason it's already not illegal in the US for example is due to the terrible way in which these things are handled. Mainly a poor and out dated legislation that easily be bought off by the same companies they are supposed to regulate.

    Nothing really new here.
     
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  8. Boink

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    I'm sorry any controlled vices or sources of money are not based on "international" law. It's base on the country in some cases state/provinces. We don't have any provisions addressing this issue as far as I know only Belgium has a law regarding this issue.

    Like I've said about lobbyist Lobbyist can't do anything after the bill turns into a law. Everyone that tries to sue without an accompanied provision to support their lawsuits more like failed. Pretty much a waste of time and money.
     
  9. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Good points, however the goal of these regulations in must countries is not to restrict this freedom for everyone.

    In my country these regulations exist, and I'm perfectly able to go to a casino, gamble how much I like, and my government will be happy with it because I'm a consumer of these services, which means jobs for people and taxes for the government.
    BUT, regulations are needed for 2 reasons :
    - to protect people who excessively gamble. Protect them from themselves, and protect their relatives (mainly their family).
    - to ensure the fairness of the gamble. This party is often forgotten, but to us consumers it should be our first concern.

    Interesting point you're making there, because it does not work the same in my country. I checked the definition used by regulations entities and gamble is defined by the fact of using money, not meant to be gotten back after the bet, on a game where luck is predominant (not necessarily the only factor, but a predominant one), in the hope of obtaining a gain.

    What interesting is that the "gain" is not more precisely defined. You hope for a gain. Whatever it is.
    And even if I'm not in this country, I think that's the reason Belgium already decided to enforce these regulations on lootboxes : they are seen as gamble, even if the gain is virtual, this gain is not even your property as the result of the gamble is still a part of the intellectual property of the gaming company.

    Pretty much, I think this loophole does not even exist if we follow the law in most countries, but it is not enforced because government are completely oblivious about this problem.


    About the "rental" side, if this was this easy, casinos would be renting their services too.
     
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  10. Arcticcz

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    Well maybe in USA but in EU these things are viewed as tax evasion lol ... I wonder if Kakao pays their taxes correctly since they are based in Holland for EU operations. Reminds me of how Steam (Valve) implemented tax for any transation to cover for that stuff.

    Wonder if Mr. Kim would welcome a small inspection team to take a look at their revenue compared to tax declaration lulz
     
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  11. Tjaranis

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    need laws to stop microtransaction gambling bs in general.... its disgusting it is still allowed anywhere.
     
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  12. Tjaranis

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  13. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 62 NA

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    I believe they changed it again to be x5 now

    Do you have the link to it or know around when they put it in the patch notes?
     
  14. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    Here, it was in the pearl shop notes. https://www.blackdesertonline.com/news/view/3929 Scroll down to [Event] Shining adventure box 990 pearls.
     
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  15. Boink

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    Because gains are defined by non-virtual items. Real tangible items of value. If we look at almost all Gambling-related laws some of them was passed 100 years ago. Most of these laws are not applicable to deal with the internet era.

    Again if we are using the same complexities of "your law" and in your perception a loophole that "it doesn't exist". Why are they operating in almost all countries except Belgium (or rather part of it since Belgium citizen can actually play BDO but not allowed to buy the boxes)? Do you think that businesses will risk lawsuits or jail time if they don't have any rights to conduct it?


    Don't know anything about Holland's laws. But in the U.S. there are definitely laws regarding your winnings in gambling. Sadly it doesn't cover 2000 Pearls that you get from the box (since it's only part of a service) or can't be exchanged to a legal tender. Most people don't need to declare that they won a rare item from a loot box as far as I know.

    I'm sure this company is pretty open with their revenue. I'm certain they are up-to-date with their tax fillings.

    Yes, they did. They added more p2w. This includes the costume melting for crons.
     
  16. Arcticcz

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    Well, maybe .... but I doubt that based on my experience from LG .... Koreans there never really understood that EU is not a single country lol
     
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  17. CrankyWizard

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    You rage - but you are clearly addicted to BDO.
    Only an addict would hate on something so much in the forums about how bad it is, and keep playing. Which you clearly do.
     
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  18. Boink

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    So in Holland, you can get tax for winning a virtual item?
     
  19. Arcticcz

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    Not for winning a virtual item, but for basically playing a slot machine, I think yes.
    Loot box is in its core: "I spent X amount to win nothing (some trash item in this game) or X amount of of prize (pearls, which are obtainable by money)" ... It also depends on how court views each case, like FIFA example .... no "money" prize there but they still banned it in many countries.

    Other than that found what I was looking for this morning.
    When I was talking about VAT, services mostly incl. gaming is VAT by country, I wonder if they tax that correctly being Koreans xD

    telecommunications, broadcasting and electronic services, which are always taxed in the customer's country (where a private person has a permanent address or usually resides, or where a non-taxable person is established)

    It literary states online gaming, reason I mentioned that valve also picked up the pace to show you they charge you VAT, making transations more costly while covering their asses.

    Can't find where it states VAT % charged for Kakao transations, not that I make that many, wonder if their price is always same, for example 30 EUR/X pearls and they pay no tax or pay only tax % ??? according to Netherlands (Holland) ??? which would be a tax evasion to EU. ....

    It is very strange "practice" indeed since end-customer HAS to be informed about amount of VAT he is charged since some customer could that for their own tax purposes, also it is mandatory in Europe, not just EU countries >.>

    Like, online caffé buying several games for their PCs, they need to know it is taxxed so they could incl. it in their tax report later on.
    But then again, Koreans don't understand how "outshide of Khorea-hmmmmmmrrrr" works, ... like none at all.
     
  20. Mikroman

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    Most of countries have hard rules in gambling. Online games (try to) ignore this rules without any retributions. You spend REAL MONEY to gamble = pay tax of gambles and make your casino safe! (example: 18+)
     

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