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Gambling

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by MagicalTabletopGirls, May 21, 2020.

  1. Boink

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    VAT taxes is not the same as "Gaming Taxes". Only two countries strictly forbid the sale of loot boxes Belgium is one of them.

    We don't even have a VAT Tax in the U.S. we do have sales tax but most of these services except buying a copy of Black Desert are non-taxable.
    The U.S. has the Internet Tax Freedom Act so most internet services are non-taxable. They just need to file their revenue or profit which is taxable.

    I for one don't support p2w microtransaction and loot boxes but I don't condemn it. First I enjoy gambling like I've said. I just don't buy artisans, crons, or lootboxes. The reasons why I believe they can't police it is because: the laws clearly can't define if it's a "gambling" since most of them are older than my great-grandpa, the U.S. government can't really intervene without any type of taxable monetization (Internet Tax Freedom Act), they are exchanging legal tender for "services" rendered and not getting anything of value, the gaming site doesn't provide winnings that have a monetary value where people can launder their money.
     
  2. Rastei

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    I played Blade and sould and thought it was bad till i started playing BDO lol. This is a nightmare compared with bns
     
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  3. yukishiro1

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    BDO didn't start out like this. Slowly, over a period of several years, the developers have introduced greater and greater P2W and greater and greater cash shop focus. If it had started this P2W, it wouldn't have been nearly as successful. Which they know perfectly well. The "boil the frog" thing is real, and intentional.
     
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  4. Arcticcz

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    Yeah, well, many of us purchased the game for quite the cash back in 2016 .... I mean, game was marketed as AAA title price at the time.
    But yeah, if we knew how f--ked up this entire "product" would become not many would purchase it let alone support these cretins pretending to be devs *stares at dead game with stationary NPCs and braindead mobs*
     
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  5. Nagasaki

    Nagasaki Ninja

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    NL and BE already banned these boxes :D
     
  6. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Yes, businesses will do it, exactly because they see a loophole and think they can earn money through its use. Do you think big companies have armies of lawyers to absolutely avoid doing anything wrong? No, they will try to find every possible loophole for their own benefit, and blur the lines as much as possible to have a line of defence if they mess up.

    For example, you're defining gain by non virtual items, but that's exactly the loophole they're using right now.
    "That's no gamble because there's only virtual items implied" but meanwhile, when a country decides to enforce its rules about gamble, Kakao is forced to remove its boxes in this country.
    The gains of these boxes are still virtual items, right?
     
  7. Boink

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    Gains are defined by most countries are valuable, can be legally traded for a money, tangible, and something you own.

    The game services (virtual items and lootboxes) provide something of no value, virtual, can't be legally traded for money, and something you rent. Unlike bitcoin, real casino play chips or stocks where you actually get $, anything you get or buy in-game are defined as a service and the company that OWNS them don't need to reimbursed players (like reimbursing them from their PENS) except the timed services (value packs, subscription and so forth).

    So virtual items from most of these services are not taxable by state or country (total profit is taxable). Government bodies don't really work for free, most of the products they oversee are taxable or can be "regulated".

    They don't need an army of lawyers to represent them. Do you think when this game was created with a budget of 1-2m dollars they can afford an army? They know it's perfectly legal to conduct their business in most countries like every game with the same p2w model. No challenges whatsoever except for franchising or patents. When was the last class-action lawsuit that relates to this ever been successful? Z-E-R-O.
     
  8. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    But when Belgium enforces its rules about gambling, lootboxes gets removed.
    And they do things, play with the limits and stop it when they think they can get owned. Again, Belgium.

    If they were 100% sure to be totally legal, they wouldn't have used lootboxes. And no lawsuit because they simply step back when they know they can get owned.
     
  9. Boink

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    Yes against EA and the public outcry about some Star Wars character game unlockable by lootboxes. That was in 2017. Lootboxes been around for longer than those time periods and in the U.S. gaming committee (since it's not a taxable number and no laws that oversee virtual goods) consider it perfectly legal.

    As far as I know, you can't sue some company because the government turns it illegal. They just stop conducting said business and any past action is not bound by the new ruling. The same rules apply if you own previous automatic weapons and the goverment "bans" them. You still OWN them and the government can't take it away. Same as cars that don't require you to wear seatbelts they just have to prove it's manufactured without one (that means older cars) but the new manufacturers are required to install them. So there is no need for PA/Kakao or EA to hire lawyers to defend themselves. EA, PA/Kakao can still sell its services to Belgium but not able to sell the lootboxes.
     
  10. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Strange, you're not trying to defend your definition of "gains" anymore?
    Still, this example shows how they play with the limits and blur the lines for a benefit. You can talk about US, I can talk about Europe and how some countries already decided that it was illegal. US is only one country, nothing more.

    Well, I said my point, nothing to add from my side.
     
  11. Lii_Lii

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    They also need to pay about 5 years of back taxes for running an unregulated untaxed online casino.
     
  12. Boink

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    What do you mean? Don't know their exact ruling with lootboxes. Unless you are defining something of that nature. Why is it they are allowed to use Artisans in Belgium even though it has the same gambling construct as of those lootboxes to "gain" something in game?

    What if their rulling involves the same nature as a slot machine with a spinning wheel? I really dont know but if you are defining gains as something virtual why they didn't address the crons/artisans that can give players "gains".
     
  13. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Ah, maybe you have some informations I don't have ? Is the subject definitively closed now that lootboxes have been controlled?

    In many countries gouvernement are made with people that don't care about video-games, until recently they have been completely oblivious of the problem. But now, the most obvious problem is taken care of, what makes you think it will stop there?
     
  14. KeK0011

    KeK0011 62 EU

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    Not to mention they lied to us and no1 ever said sorry
     
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  15. Boink

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    I actually have to research this and this is what I've found: The act of betting (or wager) not the "value" because of this law: Gaming and Betting Act of 7 May 1999. Notice it's 1999. Surprisingly Artisans and Crons are not part of it https://www.gamingcommission.be/ope...zoeksrapport-loot-boxen-Engels-publicatie.pdf It is safe to assume most countries don't have this kind of law.

    Anyways I for one don't support this game via crons or artisans nor support the lootboxes. I love real competitive games (mostly FPS and Poker). There is a bill to specifically target Microtransactions, lootboxes, and P2W in the U.S clearly identifies it. Sadly it probably won't get any traction due to the on-going crisis. But the bill is set for this year.
     
  16. Allan1985

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    wow such a passive-conformist approach of things, do you also get sheared for wool?

    ty for this i will fill up my complaint
     
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  17. Khondo

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    Just a question, how much do you spend going out to the movies per year? Going out to the pub/club per year? How much do you spend on a hobby per year?

    We all have different budgets we spend on entertainment, some are larger than others. Some can't afford any budget for entertainment. But all of us can play BDO and still have fun. It is up to your willpower as to how much money you need/want to spend on BDO.
     
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  18. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Did you read the reference you've made? It clearly says that lootboxes are illegal in the examined games. They tried, but it was illegal.

    Now , why did Kakao removed the lootboxes even when BDO was not directly examined? Because they were doing something illegal too. Or else they would have kept on using this system.


    Moreover, this is a report specifically about lootboxes, so no wonder other systems were not targeted. But if you take the reason for this report (indignation of a large part of the gaming community) and the various conclusions (yes it is gamble, lack of transparency and control, manipulation, win or loss based on the value perceived by players and influenced by companies, and several others), yes I think it will not stop here.
    Exactly as I said.

    I'd agree with you, if BDO was not using gambling mechanics and predatory strategies.
     
  19. Allan1985

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    if i pay for a movie i get to see ALL the movie, if i go to a pub and pay for a beer i get to drink ALL my beer, if i go to a restaurant and pay for a dish i get to eat ALL my plate, if i pay for BDO i dont get ALL the weight, neither ALL the invetory slots, neither ALL character slots, neither ALL bank slots, etc etc etc simply because they sell a incomplete gameplay experience, that you have to complete with your own money, just like buying a bicycle with no wheels, breaks, pedals. however if i play ANY of my usuall games i dont have any inventory slots shortage, nor weight, nor bank slots, nothing, i get the 100% of the fun i paid for.

    for real dude are you trying to make me comment all of your posts?? because it seems thats what you are trying to do.
     
    #119 Allan1985, Jun 7, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2020
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  20. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Well... Even if I'm denouncing many shady methods they using, when you go on this business model, you know they still have to monetize it. So selling slots, weight, and so on does not seem unreasonable.

    Maybe this model is not really healthy for the game, but at least the deal is clear. There are things far worse than that in the CS.
     
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