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Give Wizard and Witch EVEN MORE!

Discussion in 'PvP' started by HavocGravity, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. Alodylis

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    Get a grab and go kill them? Wizards get **** on by grabs play striker and go ham
     
  2. TeRRoRibleOne

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    I can see the smoothness of people brains defending witchards... that or they refuse to have to actually learn how to play a class that isnt op. I will say this, you put any of these same people on the bottom 3 classes I guarantee you they quit the game within a month because it's too hard and they aren't gods.
     
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  3. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Ehat do u reckon are bottom 3 rn?
     
  4. TeRRoRibleOne

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    If we're talking overall (1v1, nw, siege, pve) excluding shai it's easily musa, maehwa, and tamer not in that order with mystic coming in pretty close. In the present meta for nw/siege, the two zoop classes are useless in an extremely ranged meta that is presently going on. I can speak a lot more clearly with maehwa because I mained it for so long, both the succession and awakening suck and lacks any sort of protection needed to survive. In an age where it's pretty much ball v ball of staffs, you aren't picking people off. We're at the point either one of the stealth classes and lahn do a better job at that. The two classes aren't needed for scouting as anyone on a horse is better and even lahn does it better due to those two classes getting cucked by the stamina changes. 100% BSR wise both are trash in both awakening and succession, if you use the 100 in succession of maehwa you might as well have a "please kill me" sticker above your head because it's trash and still hasn't be fixed. 1v1 wise musa lacks both a grab and really doesn't have that many cc's, maehwa can at least cc more but then again anything with a grab is superior. And grinding wise both musa and maehwa suck at the high end spots when you look at average loot per hour of all the classes say at stars end.
     
  5. Xenon

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    Maehwa definitely struggles in large scale, but Musa isn't a bottom 3 class. I'd say replace it with awakening Ranger. Awakening Mae, Awakening Ranger, and Succession Tamer would be my bottom 3 picks. I'd also say Awakening DK is a potential substitute for Ranger, but I haven't seen how she performs yet.

    But anyway, Chase allows Musa and Maehwa to do pushes that other classes can't do, or to escape from situations other classes can't. The difference between Musa and Mae is that Musa can follow up more easily without getting cucked because of access to more aoe cc and protection within his two kits, while Maehwa has a much harder time and is basically screwed if she's surrounded mid-ability. But then again, the tier list seems to rate succ Maehwa as pretty good in siege, so I'm not so sure either of our assessments are entirely accurate.

    If stamina changes hurt you so much, run Jin Hystria with 4x macalod for that big stamina boost and practice bettering your stamina management. I've never encountered a decent Musa or Maehwa who ran out of stamina in the middle of a fight unless it was a very long duel. A lot of 100%s are still kind of bad in the game. The Ninja main hand 100% is an animation lock for like 5-10 seconds and doesn't kill anybody, and the succ one is just as bad.

    As for stealth classes - yeah, none of that is true. While Stealth does lend Kuno and Ninja huge advantages in certain situations, it's also a risk vs reward tool because it is very easy to interrupt now. It's a tool meant for picking people off or disengaging, both of which become increasingly hard in an AOE CC/DAMAGE between balls meta. Grab might make them better if they can get to the wizards, but to get to them, they have to run through all the damage, and 99% of the time, I get cc'd through my ninja step and crap. At least you guys can chase through, even if very slowly. Because of this, I've avoided ball pvp for literal years and stuck with being flex/skirmish/harassment.

    As for grinding - Musa is the best at easy areas, very good at aakman, as well as decent in Sycraia and Hysteria. Succ Maehwa is very good/one of the best at Sycraia, while very good in Stars End and Hysteria. Literally one of the zones you named is actually very good for her. This isn't based on opinion. This is based on trash per hr pulls
     
  6. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    You can't seriously be putting awakening DK in bottom 3 lmao. Have you fought one of em post buffs? A 20% increase in damage output on a class like that is not something to scoff at. Also, don't make comments like that about stamina, it genuinely comes off as uneducated. (haha just run macs and hystria) Most musa's and maehwas do. It doesn't fix the stam problems one bit. The problem with the class's stamina isn't something that a larger stamina pool can fix unfortunately. The core issue is the fact that the classes don't have skills that allow them to regen stam while staying in the fight and trying to land ccs. The comment you made about the never meeting a musa or a mae that ran outta stam in a fight, honestly just leads to me thinking about a comment you made in a previous post about how you think Musa's and maehwa's just run away and stub. "The ability to do pushes that other classes can't do" The only thing this applies to is literally stun trap removal. Tell me a situation where a Musa or a mae can pull of a push that other classes can't do.
    Also in large scale, sure we can run in there and SA trade, but in what scenario does that work? The class in awakening at least doesn't have the damage output to make that kinda play style relevant. I'm sitting here with 289 with 2 pen RCE's and I still do jack for damage against any class that runs 330+ DP evasion. Not to mention with the prevalence of casters, you usually just poof the second you get in there anyways.
    You say you can't get into a group with stealth and cc and kill all of them, but you somehow expect people to not react to a Musa or maehwa running at them, while they have full vision of them the ENTIRE time. Come on dude, all this is just hogwash.

    For 1v1s, sure Musa can pull it off, but I mean, the class has more unbeatable matchups than my Porn p/c has viruses. Most of the class's damage output is pretty slow and the protected skills don't really do insane damage to blocks. Dash slash and OSB (at this point) I'm pretty sure don't have SA even though they say it does. Put those things together with no grab and Horrible stam regen skills, and any class that can play relatively safe while maintaining grab pressure literally makes it so you're often either out of stam or playing the run and bow style.

    I don't expect people to understand the problems, but I would hope that they don't give out half assed answers like "better stamina management".
     
  7. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    huh? that aint enough even for scuffed evasion "build" let alone surviving anyone with almost 500 accuracy and 289 ap?
     
  8. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Yea I would say Awakening Mae, Awakening Musa and Tamer in general. Succ mae, atleast does a lot better in 1 v 1s and as a skirmisher due to quick damage and I think succ Musa is a little nicer cus it has decent damage output, BSS slow and the ability to partially turn Dbite. I also think the fact that the damage abilities aren't split into multiple different hits helps trade and deal damage better. But that's it. Still nowhere near top 5 classes.
     
  9. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Have you fought awakening Musas? **** doesn't do damage to 650+evasion without them getting cc'd.
    Edit since it sounded kinda condescending
     
  10. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    330 dp isnt an evasion build, its a joke. should be simply blown away by 289/500 attacker via anything.
     
  11. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    You're right. It should, and that's why I'm right. :D
     
  12. Xenon

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    I literally said I haven't seen how she does yet post buffs. If musa or maehwa are running 4x maca + 2x jin hystria, they should have anywhere between 2500-3000 stamina. That's 25-30 chases on cd or 12-20 dbites. Tigerblade literally eliminates stamina cost for its duration, so you can run away with it and get stamina back in a bigger fight. You have a q block to weave and hold between chases to help with stamina upkeep. Trust me, it's both coming from fighting Musas and having played Musa before Ninja, and a bit after nerfs. It's all the same, albeit much tighter than it used to be. It's more than manageable however. As for stay in the fight.. you're not meant to stay in the fight. You're supposed to disengage, regen stamina, and wait for cds before re-engaging.

    Yeah, you guys can charge through without getting caught by stun traps or aoe ccs raining down on top of you. Blizzard might slow you down however. Idk why your damage output is so low, though. One of the top fraggers in our siege guild is an awakened musa, and he slaps everybody who isn't running a resist build or tons of evasion. 330 evasion build is not that. Try switching to tet disto earrings and a pen accuracy offhand. See if that works better for you, or get a tet turos belt.

    I can't get into a group with stealth if they're fighting. AT ALL. Because a random flying attack will break my concealment, if not just outright cc me. I have to pick my engagements. And it's not like if they react to you, the fight is sealed for you. You can just dash back out, or if the opportunity is there, kill somebody. I've seen musas just dash into a backline, kill somebody, then dash back out before people could properly react. Now if two balls are fighting, then yeah, Musas not gonna get in and do sh*t either.

    I mean, yeah, playing the run and bow playstyle isn't fun, but it's the most ideal playstyle for your class. If you're running out of stamina, you're over-engaging. That's the truth of the matter.
     
  13. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    If you played Musa before ninja release it's not even remotely the same class. Imagine the distance you stand at to engage with dash into MI. That distance takes about 4-5 chases. Literally every single skill that can be cancelled has to be done through chase. There are no reliable iframes, so a lot of the time you have to preemptively chase out or grabs will yoink you out. Dragonbite entire animation, during chase, blindthrust, evasive shot, none of those skills allow you to regen stam during the entire animation.

    If I were to try to teach you how to play your class the way you just tried to teach me, I would say something along the lines of "Don't be predictable. Don't just stealth into them from the front, do it from the sides. You're an assassin wait and play for it. I have a friend who plays Evasion ninja and literally all he does is stealth up and engage for the entire squad with the plethora of ccs ninja can throw out right from stealth." You see how awkward that sounds?

    Can you imagine how weird it sounds when you both unironically bash the class's player base for playing a certain way and then also saying, "I mean, yeah, playing the run and bow playstyle isn't fun, but it's the most ideal playstyle for your class. If you're running out of stamina, you're over-engaging. That's the truth of the matter".

    The point of these discussions, or the reason for me claiming the class isn't in a good place is not to say the class can never work. Ofcourse it can work, but why should i be gimped and out of the fight, especially due to stamina after bow engaging once running in to use 3-4 skills, THEN as a skirmishing class have to rely on a 3 min cd ability which not only locks me in that mode, but is also literally useless in most largescale situations in order to get out, when (I hate to do this) ninja can literally jump in cc 3 people with shadow stomp which has the hitbox size of your mom and a half, kill these people while weaving in iframes every second, then proceed to, not try to get out, but look for another kill instead. Do you see how absolutely insane that sounds?

    And with your gear suggestion... Why should I? Why should I have to run accuracy offhand when your class gets to go full evasion with Kutum instead and still do more damage. THAT is the problem. I'm done with compromising. We've had to do this for YEARS now and the gear in this game has gotten insane enough that these small problems are starting to really bite.

    Also who's the Musa/ Gear score and what's the guild doing what content?
     
  14. CompZilla

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    Problem is PA think witch/wiz are glass cannon

    I can't take even one Ahib with 330/297 in silent grave



    Something broken here and it's not just the disgusting music

    Witch/wiz need to be squishy with all the damage, mobility, sustain, heals, control etc NOT a tanky one man army
     
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  15. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    that is a ~680 witchzard there with full elixir rotation and pve meal jumping around 50% of the time and having red ball on the ground for many of the mobs there.

    u r trying to kill those mobs with 100 dp less?:D
     
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  16. CompZilla

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    No 330dp so 50 less can't kill one Ahib even with buffs

    Point is casters shouldn't be THIS tanky

    Witch/Wiz with their kit add dp - it becomes op
     
  17. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    i dont know why u r complaining with 330 dp, its toilet paper armor, nhf. also, what buffs did u use? as there is alot of -% monster damage attainable via that. do u have death god armor?
     
  18. CompZilla

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    I don't know why u r defending witch/wiz

    Oh yeah you're part of the coward class clan

    Have you tried crypt of resting thoughts??Just one hits like ten trucks he is tanking 20 god armour got little to do with the fact witch wiz by nature should be squishy af my archer is

    You are either rock paper scissors

    Witch wiz are are all 3
     
  19. Stealthe

    Stealthe SteaIthe Wizard 62 NA

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    50 dp is alot and depending on the combination of evasion and dr it is a world difference.Any class with the right gear can be pretty tanky but every class is a coward class in their own right and Archer is definitely no exception,melee classes zoom accross the map if they so much as get hit.

    Its hard to be a coward awaken wiz because your stationary, animation locked, melee ranged in terms of skills and you dont have any movement to disengage from the fight.They're more like a suicide bomber.
     
    #219 Stealthe, Oct 21, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  20. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    ive been almost vaporized by the mobs standing outside of exit while doing story quest with 362 dp with nouver (fallen god armor equipped), does that count? :D

    im nowhere near geared as the guy in the video (nor was i buffed at all) tho and my spec is far less mobile.
     

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