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Guide Makers: A Request

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Belle Atwell, Mar 7, 2020.

  1. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
    Likes Received:
    This a conversation out of guild chat we recently had. Despite the game going on sale for free recently we didn't pick up many recruits this year. For awhile we've noticed that we would gain a bunch of new members (usually new players) to the game only for them to quit. Meanwhile, our old members might get a friend to join only for them to quit.

    I'd ask some Guide Makers to take a look at this.
    - restructuring guides to address these sorts of issues would be VERY helpful not only keeping people in guilds, but keeping players playing.

    In trying to keep track of why this was happening the following conversation emerged:

    This is going to be a reallly sloppy to introduce. I'm sorry.
    I'm trying to understand something for Groups and Parties.
    I've basically got the numbers, but I'm failing at the logical way in which to prioritize the information.

    To begin: 308 DP is very easy to obtain from having TET Armor.
    This is the "point of entry" for things like Star's End, Sycraia, Kratuga, Mirumoks, Arkman, Gyfin, and Hystria".

    However, if you had PEN armor you would have 330 DP.
    Therefore, this "bounds" the problem to a "range".

    Commentor 1:
    That's too much work for a part time player like myself.

    Presenter Continues:
    Now that we have the {minimum and maximum numbers} worked out for {what we can expect a player needs to participate} we have the "range of participation".

    Aside: Stop :P You're quite clever. Don't sell yourself short.

    Commentor 1:
    lol ty

    Presenter go on:
    With the equation ( Item Cost / Personal Daily Income ) we can work out most of what we need to know about " how long" our members "will participate" with this content regardless if they want to or not.

    This is very important to sustaining Parties.

    People burn out and quit the game if the benefit of their time is not communicate well with the activities demanded of them. This is a cross-guild problem. Everyone we encountering it.

    Commentor 2:

    For example:
    A friend's sister won a Garmoth's Heart shortly after joining the game. Consequently, she went straight to end game while he was still playing catchup.
    Another example:
    This Christmas one of our guildies got a TET Blackstar while the rest did not despite many attempts. After passing the point where as half of the whole price of the weapon (on the market) has already been passed without a successful upgrade) it become necessary to Grind simply to sustain growth on that character.

    Given that a character makes 100 million (minimum) a day they will not close the gap with this guild member for another 188 days (on average).

    This also leads to people quitting.
    It is reasonable to say that just for that one item there is a 188 day gulf between us being able to play together [with the same benefits].

    Commentor 2:
    or vice versa



    This is spectrum is most of why we lose guild members (as well as the other guilds from the conversations I'm having with them).

    The 308 to 330 spectrum seems to be a good target for a case study.

    It is also not as bad as it looks.
    Unfortunately, because people can't just "see it" (this information) they quit.

    In attempting to address this a few months ago we worked out:
    ( Future Item Cost / Personal Daily Income ) - ( Current Item Cost / Personal Daily Income)

    This equation tells us the "length of participation" we can expect people need to remain playing in order to receive their upgrade.
    This is the Bare-Minimum: since Enhancing typically increases the costs and therefore time.

    Commentor 3:
    There's also the issue of challenge. People quit because killing a creature that is more challenging yields the same reward as killing a creature that is one shot.

    Commentor 1:
    That's probably the biggest factor.


    It definitely creates the most problems.
    People would rather fight one creature (like Griffons) or a pack of creatures similar to that (Griffons and Gahaz Shadows).

    Unfortunately, here is where I do not understand the information we've collected:

    308 DP is what a "party" (many players, ala guild) would need to have to consistently play together at one of these location. Again, this is just the case study.

    However, to go to all the locations associated with this they would need to have 330 DP.

    The best method to reach this value while the creatures are still considered "challenging" is to get Hybrid Accessories: those accessories with AP and DP.
    The cost of such accessories is 3.5 billion (2) = 7 billion and 1.5 billion (2) = 3. 10 billion then.
    As well, TET armor.

    ( 10 billion silver / daily income ) = the player's entry fee to participate with this time of content
    This is cost value IN TIME

    Ultimately, we lose players because:
    a. the TIME REQUIRED to join is too long or
    b. the information is conceivable to them (because this kind of information is rarely presented up front or in any logical easy to follow manner)
    c. the player acquires the gear necessary to participate with the party after the challenge from the creature encounters is reduced due to their upgrades
    d. the player acquires the gear necessary to participate only after the party they are trying to participate with has again reached a new tier of gear (making their entire effort up to the point pointless and worthless)

    Each of these factors contributes to individual guild party's cohesion - breaking it down and ultimately causing people to quit.

    Addressing this problem by demanding that players solo to catch up only hastens the player quitting the game.

    Therefore, we need to know what is the best method to make a goal chart base on time to resolve this situation?

    Commentor 1:
    definitely a tough one

    Anyway... to summarize:
    To help people stay playing the margins of time between equipment gradients needs to be easily communicated and plans presented that do not cause a player to feel overwhelmed or in a hopeless situation.

    Extended Conversation:


    Other factors to consider~

    PvP asks people to have AP / Evasion first.
    PvE asks people to focus on grinding where the equalization between Party AP (at the individual level) is the same because BDO's loot system is screwy

    if Player A has 150 AP and Player B has 260 AP
    the loot goes more to player B than A. Not a lot, but it cause people to have meltdowns.

    This second issue is mostly "self-vetting"
    the player that takes issue with this usually will leave the party before they understand the problem
    when this happens they will refuse to come back
    (basically making it like a religious matter. to return violates their religious beliefs and nothing can be done to change their mind).

    unfortunately, most players are told that ap = more loo = faster progress
    this kind of locks them into a sunk-cost fallacy since once you commit to a gear path there is no way out of it unless the game lets you out again

    This means we cannot just hand out a math sheet that states how the game operates and expect that is enough for people to use it.

    Commenter 1:

    Even I'm trapped in something like this right now. The earliest I can upgrade my gear is April 17th at the rate I'm going. Unfortunately, the Odilita content will have Black Star equipment. This might skyrocket the rarity of those items further setting us back another 3 months.

    We had some members check the numbers in another games. Gear Progression in this game is somewhat like Experience Progression in World of Warcraft. Experience caps out in Vanilla WoW at 384 Exp per Kill while its minimum is 124.

    We should try to goal towards creating a Gradient Chart that permits a new guildie to "see" how "long" (in time) they will need to grind a specific location in order to "progress".

    While this won't ultimately address the issues we have cataloged it will permit out members to communicate with what in the game they are actually struggling and we in turn can strategist with them how to overcome it.

    The above factor may be the single greatest problem amongst all of this. The player joining or nearing end game is "alone".

    Commenter 2:

    Another factor we need address is to go back through and map out again is what areas permit groups and to what groups sizes.

    No one trusts the information on the world map as we know it is inaccurate for all things PvE.
    No one trusts nodes (because they didn't work for years).
    No one trusts loot scrolls (because of mirumoks).
    No one trusts the loot system (because shai being punished for using their songs with free loot on).
    Most groups cannot be size 2 or greater than 3 (we don't understand this).
    Locations that previously supported groups no longer do (don't know how large this issue is or what isn't impacted).
    Locations that do support groups are not known (because no one has the time to test it).
    The game does not permit groups greater than 5 (due to the loot system) preventing active members from working together.

    Basically, the entire party system is a problem.
    We no longer know how it functions and we cannot convince players to use it due apathy.

    Our veterans... looking you officers, have stopped partying completely due to this.
    That's not a statement of blame. It is not another long term issue.
    The longer a player plays the more apathy they have regarding grouping and weather or not it contributes to their "progression".
    Yes, the inevitably site its absence as a factor in their reasons for quitting when they leave.

    We need address this second problem soon as it is the only thing people have to do when "waiting" (grinding) for their upgrades.
    Long term most members site wanting to do this more than getting up grades
    E.G. There is not enough game to play when it comes to grinding. Too few grinding locations that are "interesting" (scenic apparently?) or challenging (yielding rewards equal to the player's needs given their gear score, but hard enough to be entertaining to fight).
    This is why it is critical to reach the 287 DP mark.

    We know from the past that regardless of time played players that reach the Navarn Steppes and 210 AP with DUO to TRI stay.
    Those that do not quit.

    Commentor 3:
    It's the first place you can solo things that rewards meaningful loot. Griffons for boss gear or the nice 21,000 loot, but they still have a good chance of killing you. Feather Wolves for solo. Either for party.

    Yes and it overlaps with the Skill Grind at Polly's or the first End Game group content: Gyfins and Miru. They're both in walking distance.

    Commentor 1:
    I forgot about that. I need a better computer to go there.

    Computer 2:
    Yeah. Kama was far the best expansion. I wish they'd go back and fix the original areas to be like how they were. I miss grinding Chimeras. That as a good spot.

    And... Vell.
    Discussion ends.

    Vell over...

    Anyway, the guild doesn't have the resources to work this kind of information out. We've been trying since June of last year. The issue is persistent though. The same issues have been a problem since the beginning of the game, but got drastically worse after Valencia.

    New players and old players are the most affected by these issues. Old players cannot bring new players to the game because new players cannot catch up. New players will not stay with the game because they can't make sense out of how to progress.

    287 DP is a very important number from what we've been able to journal.

    That is when a player can go to Navarn Steppes as well as Sycraia or Pila Ku Jail while those locations are still in the "challenging but rewarding" range. By 308 the only challenges available are things like Sycraia or Star's End, but the AP requirements vs. the daily income to meet them don't line up. Thus, by the time people are ready to go there they people trying to get there are all spread out in their gear abilities.

    If someone is able to make a guide that addresses these kinds of problems I think it would radically help the game out: both in retaining players as well as making people generally more happy. Right now no one knows how to play together. Walking 40 minutes to Pila Ku with a party only to find out the devs decided to take a dump on the player base by making it solo only is a really good way to watch a full party of players lose hope completely in their ability have any FUN with a GAME rather than making the GAME a JOBBBB.

    Minor Aside:

    Vell gave:
    3 million silver in gold bars
    3 vell's fine powder

    Can't you GIVE ANYTHING worthwhile? How about +n hunting rifles, sniper rifles, manos gear.

    Worthless piles of garbage is what you get for attending party content in this game.

    Here's an idea:
    give us ANYTHING from the loot table with the statement (degraded) on it.

    Example: Degraded Snipe Rifle +10.
    It might have 2000 durability, but after that it falls apart into components. Caphras, Manos Gems, whatever. It's make loot meaningful again.

    Anyway. It's a bloody MMOs devs. Start rewarding your players for playing the darned game.
    #1 Belle Atwell, Mar 7, 2020
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 7, 2020
  2. Amirite

    Aug 21, 2016
    Likes Received:
    Whatever it's a request or a statement of the current game, I know the struggle guilds have to get members and keep them. I still think that not just BDO, but many MMO's lack of options and more control of a guild how to run it.
    I agree in many of the things you and your guild have discuss, but we also know the main problem, that PA is and will be very hard to hear anything of this or even understand it.

    The whole group content is one topic of it's own, but the guilds is really where people should find there home and I believe many players stay longer in the game, if there are benefits, content etc. for a guild to do.

    I'm not sure PA would do much and then what do we do?

    Also I am sure there are many guilds out there, that are doing just fine, they just have found another way around to deal with all these problems.
    Just a thought.
  3. zhagsten

    Jun 22, 2016
    Likes Received:
    It sounds like the facebook effect. People comparing what they get and what others get. It makes sense in a party to have the basic loot equal, but past that, any rare drop is just going to make some people tilt. It's not new, it's the foundation of the game and you can't do much about it as there's no direct trading or guild stash to help others.
    I remember in 2016 already people crying because they wouldn't get their Liverto from Guild Bosses, while others would get several. And while you can hide the drops and enhancements announcements from other players, when it comes to the guild, people talk about it anyway. People can't refrain from sharing their drops and enhancements in guild chat. Instinctively, they want to share their joy. But they poison other players.
  4. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

    Nov 9, 2017
    Likes Received:
    Well, honestly that problem with this game happens because the devs made common drops rare as f%$k for no reason.

    I mean seriously..even farming a blue ring to tri shouldn't take a year without the central marketplace. Those things should be raining from the skies for how difficult the enhancement system is. Its an issue just making a Tri Asula for some accounts.

    With the way this game treats its mobs, one should really expect Diablo styled loot drops to rain down...Instead it requires a loot scroll to pretend it feels like you have a chance to finally get a cheer animation while grinding on any given day..No matter if you had to run through 7 or 8 of em. And the cheer can go away too..Just let the drop glow orange or something to signify, hey loot this.
    Amirite likes this.
  5. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
    Likes Received:
    I don't disagree.

    I tried to get people to go out today since everyone enjoys the Events in the game. It's one of the few things we can reliably get people together for these days.

    This morning's conversation on this: _______________________________________

    Person A:
    Have you see this?

    Person B:
    That music is wonderful. Too bad all the scenic spots in original release aren't mingled with creatures for our characters. New content, but for who?

    Person C:

    Party Organizer:
    Would anyone like to get together to gather Pila Fe Scrolls for the Anniversary Events coming up? We'll need 25.

    Person E:
    Nah, sorry. BDO Farming is the most boring thing in the world.

    Party Organizer:
    (some time later)
    If the creature survives long enough to fight I would disagree... few and far between though

    Person E:
    Even then, there has to be some worth to it
    im saying the way farming works in bdo is awful
    im not saying it couldnt be improved

    Party Organizer:
    How would you do it?

    Person E:
    like you said, decrease the zerg
    and increase the worth of mobs
    it wont work if you just buff mobs so it takes 2 minutes to kill one
    then you need that one to be worth 2 minutes of farming

    Party Organizer:
    :( I always hope I am wrong because when I am right things tend to get worse.

    Person C:
    You're not wrong.

    Person B:
    They released new content out of sight for most people.

    Person C:
    It's not the gear that matters.

    Person A:
    It's not that it is out of sight. It's that there is nothing in sight for us to do together. How the (bleep) are we supposed to keep a guild alive if the whole game is solo? Guild Missions? It's solo-creatures with a pay out. Why can't they understand this? They still die in one hit and we all make more money NOT doing them.

    Person D:
    It's not about the money. Though, the Koreans seem to have a brain bug for killing tons of creatures rather than making content where a party can pull, taunt, and you know... use their abilities. Then be rewarded for the time.

    Person B:
    Yeah, but how do you balance time? Mirumoks are just less intelligent Waragons. I would rather have a creature we could PULL that spawns creatures around it like a traditional MMO. Tethered to a totem or a 5 cm pull range is beyond aggrovating.

    A creature camp needs to give validity to everyone participating. We have a ton of shai and no use for them because the Devs can't pull their heads out of their you know what's and have stationary camps.

    Person A:
    Like Mirumoks?

    Person B:
    You know what I mean. Like not running around.

    Person F:
    That's not the issue with the Shai. Our cooldowns are so long if we get interrupted or knocked down that ability is gone for nearly a full minute.

    A mirumok fight is 2 minutes. Our abilities are 40 second cooldowns. 2 interrupts and we're out half the fight. The girls want to play support, but there's no permission for it. It's why we lose so many female players. We lose males just the same without taunts.

    Person B:
    It's the knockdowns that are causing the problems?

    Person F:
    At waragons its the knockdowns. Terrain can be an issue, too. It's why no one does Mediah or Gargoyles if it can be avoided. Interrupts like Thumpy at Mirumoks or the thing leaping out of the ground at Waragons breaks up the ability to actually play my character. When we were fighting in Ash Forest those big reapers were the way they ought to do it. The creature doesn't knock you down, it doesn't go into the ground, it doesn't interrupt you (so far as we know?). It just swipes and hurts a lot. That can be healed. Not that my character can heal... because it's on an astronomically long downtime! I suppose that would be where the Witch or Valk would step in, but the devs won't let us have full sized groups.

    Party Organizer:
    I will admit the devs are the enemy.

    Person A:
    Yeah, but the devs are idiots and made something that's entertaining only to make it a two person party. Like bringing a full party anywhere these days.

    Party Organizer:
    It's to be expected. BDO's Development team hates people partying up and does everything it can to screw over friendships, relationships, or guild cohesion out side of PvP. What we need to focus on the next two months is making a map of what nodes permit Parties. Otherwise we'll just keep losing new players and veterans to the monotony.

    We need a map. Or a menu. Anything that lets us quickly tell members where they can go together so they don't burn out.

    Person F:
    I know.

    Person B:
    There still needs to be a sense of validity. People know how to kill something. That's something the Koreans never seem to get. Guild Wars 2 was the same way. You vaguely sneeze near a creature and everything dies. There's no dopamine hit for instant killing something.

    Guild Wars 2 didn't even have pathing for most of its creatures. I suppose this is a step up for Korean games?

    Person A:
    Killing a thousand mobs for a piss ant rewards is exhausting.

    Person F:
    Trying buffing people to be punished with less rewards for the loot. That's really fun.

    Party Organizer:
    I'm sorry :(

    I'll try to get a map together soon. We made a map of Pila Ku and Gyfin Interior the other night. We'll have one for Sycraia soon.

    I need a dedicated group of people soon to test Party Size vs. Loot Punishments. Then we'll know where we can send guildies. That seems to be critical issue to keep people invested with playing.

    Person C:
    That still doesn't solve the loot issue:

    Party Organizer:
    It's worse than that. We need to have a map that tells us:
    1. What size party can grind at what nodes
    2. What size the party can be minimum at each node
    3. What size the party can be maximum at each node
    4. What size the party can be to receive loot
    5. What size the party can be to receive combat exp
    6. What size the party can be to receive skill exp
    7. What size the party can be before rewards for time-spent bottoms out or becomes less than solo-grind

    We shouldn't focus on "progression" for its own sake. This is a buy-to-play game.
    That's how we lost our PEN wielders. Our equipment isn't made and then degrades to be remade again from drops in the open world. Everything that drops is a sub-component to the real things we need.

    We don't want to end up on a gear-treadmill either. Again, that's how we lost the PEN wielders. They burnt out trying to get there. Buy-to-play games make sure you can't get to max gear as it forces them to just make new gear or new regions. We have enough to do with Life Skills that everyone's satisfied. That's not where we lose players.

    __ [Footnote: In this part of the conversation what they are talking about is that we've recognized in other games reaching "top gear" is pointless because as with "Black Star equipment"... well it is B.S. New gear invalidates old gear. If a developer adds new gear when what the players are asking for or leaving because of is a lack of content then the developers has no understanding of their game. This problem can improve or the game goes into unrecoverable decline.
    BDO has is currently in a phase where it is either going to learn to:
    a. give new players rewards for grinding equal to the time they've invested
    b. ways to swap time for time (like if you swap from grinding to life skilling
    c. get something back for cron's lost, etc)
    d. make a menu that accurately informs where there are places to go with friends/guildies in its own menu
    e. add group content for the WHOLE game in the abandoned regions of the early world (prior to Kama). There are hundreds of places to do this. Mountain Tops with no creatures there. Creatures that are currently level 30 could get a boost to something higher. People enjoy encountering level 60 creatures in a level 30 or 20 area believe it or not. It lets them know they still have places to work towards. Late game it also means they can walk out of their home town and still find something worth doing - like defending it. Psychologically this is always going to be there. Take away and people psychologically notice... and it will just grow and grow in them until they flame up and have a fit. It happens 100% of the time and at least once a month. It doesn't matter how old or young the person is. We're hard wired for this. Take it away and all you do is generate apathy at your company as well as the product.
    f. or not at continue to bleed out players who genuinely enjoy the game, but see nothing to "play"
    See, again, the issue the guild keeps encountering is that when grouping with players it is mostly entertaining in any combat scenario to see how it turns out with other people there. It also frees the individual up to do something-anything different organically (spontaneously) OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL. This is not possible solo. Thus, regardless of how good the mobs get it will always be "the same" because that creature can't be encountered DIFFERENTLY along...]
    ____ Footnote End

    Person B:
    Everyone been waiting for the Alpine Region since before Dreighan.

    Party Organizer:
    Yea, just need to find a way to survive until it comes out I guess.

    It's a pretty straight forward road map.
    A - Produce a Grind map for Parties that lets them know what Size of Party they can bring
    B - Produce a Grind map for Parties that lets them know what Exp (Combat / Skill Exp) and Trash they can expect to get (per Party Size
    C - Avoid telling people to "go solo" or "I had to do it" because whether the creatures are hard or easy they'll quit regardless
    There's nothing I can do about the { loot to time } ratios unless we find some new way to work around this idiot system.


    It's a demoralizing situation. Basically, this is the conversation of watching a guild die in slow motion.

    With things like Discord available it's important to keep in mind most "guilds" are just "people who like to network through one another". Just because I'm not in Snake or Filter doesn't mean I'm not grinding with people in Snake or Filter. In other games like DAoC this meta-connection would have been called an Alliance and Guilds who network through those Alliances.

    With Discord this manner of Organization isn't really necessary or even efficient. One day I might be grinding with a streamer to catalog new content or make maps for the various regions. Something Lovely is a fantastic website, but they don't show maps for the interior of dungeons, the location of mob placement, group compositions, most effective skill loadouts, or basically anything to do with working with people together while they wait out the grind for an upgrade.

    This is where guilds and the game at large loses the most players.

    It is also important to keep in mind that the devs have all the intelligence of a dead horse when it comes to the making of grind locations. Pila Ku Jail is the largest dungeon in the game, but is solo content. This is just thorough going stupidity for an MMO. Creature RETAIN agro only over very short distances while dying quickly and thereby giving out terrible trash rewards. This means that classes which do not have a large and swift movement range (like when the shai had run speed buff removed) can't keep up if the group is moving in a forward direction rather than circling.
    The reason for the the "aggro retention range" being so small seems to do with how the game engine unpacks information. If the world were a 2D Excel Sheet map then a Cell Size might be 30 meters. When a creature agros beyond 30 meters it probably creates issues we don't see as players. Therefore, the devs thought it would be a good idea to have us kill a creature at cell A1, then go to B2, C3, etc. Unfortunately, this is stupid.

    When a character needs to dash forwards from place to place it taxes a lot of people's computers causing them to crash to desktop. This depletes the amount of people who can actually grind at all. Meanwhile a guild should be looking for locations where the player can stay in one spot without dashing forwards a lot. This favors locations with high respawn, low creature density, and high rewards. I don't like giving this information out so you can go figure that out for yourselves for the time being. Never the less, it is a commonly sited problem with BDO.

    Another issue to keep in mind is this "validation" issue:
    People want to be able to "play" (have agency) with the creatures they are fighting.
    People also want to be able to "game" (have a consistent structure) to "play" within.

    This validation issue requires that creature respond to taunts like a traditional MMO. When a Valkyrie taunts ALL mobs should go to her, not just whatever number of mobs the devs feel like gracing upon her as 'her personal agro'.
    - this addresses the "structure' issue: traditionally known as "Game"
    - these things can be avoided or controlled by "strategic placement"

    Similar PvP a well organized group can Pull, Taunt, Guide (creatures), Kill by defending a specific spot of the terrain as if it is more than incidentally strategically important.

    There are many benefits to doing this:
    1. when pulling a set of creatures always pull to the NEXT set or "camp" rather than fight them at the one they have spawned at
    2. because the devs don't know how to do PvE they want you to run forwards to the next camp after you have killed the first
    3. unfortunately the AI in this game combined with the tiny tiny agro-retention-range means that you'll often lose creatures if you don't pull to that arbitrary tile location spoken of above: defending a specific spot of terrain
    4. when you have "guided" the creatures to terrain location you have determined to be best to move their aggression to ALL party members should join there
    - the only exception to this is when fighting Flammen in Gyfin because they use this strategy and will melt your party in a heartbeat

    etc etc and so on
    #5 Belle Atwell, Mar 8, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2020
    Amirite likes this.
  6. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
    Likes Received:
    @ zhagsten
    @ Kynreaa

    Yeah, a lot of the whole "I need better gear" thing is rather pointless in BDO. It certainly helps to get the current "ceiling" just below meta, but whenever we lose people in the guild the issue always comes down to "lack of play".

    I think "play" has to do with agency. "Game" always is the structure.

    In BDO there is a ton of "game", but very little "play". With PvE this issue is amplified because the devs fight so hard to make sure we can't party up. It's truly baffling because this is an MMO.

    In terms of the sexes we:
    - We lost the most in female players because of the same reasons women go into medicine.
    - Women tend to go into the Life Skills early and stick with it throughout the game (that's been our guild's experience)
    - However, most female players want to party. Enhancement + Gear Score + Time + Real Life Commitments like children tends to mean they just want to log in, do whatever is available (briefly), and log out.

    This is where Kynreaas' idea makes the most sense.

    The game should drop temporary items. Accessories than come upgraded, but won't last more than an hour.
    Then when they break they turn into minor values towards actual permanent gear progress.

    It would really help retain female players I think.

    For male players the issues are primarily that:
    1. tanks can't tank (no taunt)
    2. they can't bring a friend to the game and expect to play with them
    - same issue female players have, but in this case it could be a male or female player not being able to 'catch up' in time to play together

    Yeah, I'm getting more and more behind this "temporary drop" idea. It would be good to mingle it with the Diablo 1 or 2 structure.
    For example, you could get so much "Spirit Dust" together and combine that with "Black Stone Dust" which would give your armor and weapons the temporary effectiveness of the content you'd be going to.

    This way you'd still have to grind the "Dust" from stuff at your own level, but once you got enough you could go grind stuff with your friends. The more "dust" the more potent the buff.

    It still wouldn't solve this asinine limitation to party size. That needs an ingame menu to resolve ultimately.
    But in the mean time if someone capable of making guides could take a look at mapping this out it'd be a tremendous help for the whole player base I think. Why can we group and in what sizes? Just that (and have it update patch to patch)
    Amirite likes this.
  7. Amirite

    Aug 21, 2016
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    It really gives a good insight of what i think many guilds struggle with today, about the grinding area's. If you don't got the AP/DP you're not going there, simple as that. The majority of players who have the armor and weapons for these area's, seems to be in the lower end of all players, why I wonder PA set's full focus on those area's in content. We know, KR is really something different and I just don't think we ever will see a more modern MMO Western inspiration content as we know it in BDO, with dungeons, group area's for guilds or smaller parties as we would like it.

    I sure wish this topic had more attention, because you and your guild does put a lot of hard work into it.
  8. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
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    I was just talking to a friend tonight about this. I was saying that people in my guild have reached the point of apathy with the situation.

    She says that her guild has come to the same conclusions, but has started to make the charts like those being discussed above. They're going to send me theirs at some point. There are some extra conditions they've mapped out... like reward visions by levels and stuff like that.

    Their initial method for addressing the problem requires keeping multiple characters camped across different regions for guild missions. Officers have the highest character for that region and new members or non-officers just need to show up. They also keep track of officers to be sure that they are not only Life Skill or not only PvE.

    In our guild the Officers already had boats when the new ocean content came out, but the newer members were just still getting the skills and funds together from nightly guild missions. Kill the monsters then go to Port Ratt. That sort of thing.

    Bartering isn't group based so it shot all our efforts straight to the bottom of the sea. Suddenly Officers had things to do that others didn't. We couldn't keep together. Now we have Officers doing bartering and everyone else grinding. It is worsened because the Officers got to get into the ocean content while it was still paying out while now there is nothing comparable.

    Temporally this just adds a permanent divide between the have's and the have nots. We lost an officer that's been in the game since launch and a lot of other dedicated members just stopped logging in.

    It's not really different for the newer players. They see how much they have to work by comparing it to how much those already having work for a year or better on something have worked and are like, "I'll... find another game."

    Yeah, at this point the best thing I can think of would be something like that temporary buff idea. The "Spirit Dust" and "Black Spirit Dust" idea above. That way it is maybe an hour's worth of grind for an hour's worth grind somewhere with your friends? I don't know. Like the Mysterious Knight. It is temporary, but solves a boat load of problems.
  9. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
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    Another thought popped into my head as I was closing the window.....

    One of our guildies has been playing for ages. He has several dozens of Kzarkas in his storage, but can't afford to repair them.

    One of the things that permanently divided players is whether or not you are going to be able to keep boss drops or not. If you find a Kzarka it would be best if you kept it. Long term you are going to need it dozens of them

    However, short term one boss drop is several months of play.

    You simply can't get time back in this game.

    Therefore, anyone who gets any loot worth even the most modicum of time-forward against future-time-lost is just going to give it up.

    • They really ought to drop into the world items that act like "faux-enhancements". Things you can blow up for a chance to build a chart that you actually need.
    • That or a permanent type that you when you use has to be paired again with memory fragments. Even it is 100% durability loss every time people would pay that over the current Russian Roulette with our lives we play to do Enhancing.
    You can't get real life time back. Enhancing as it currently is is just life-robbery.

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