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How Pay2Win Definitely Robbed Something from the Game

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Belle Atwell, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. Belle Atwell

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    I have stated many times I don't care about gear. To me, gear is a Carrot at the end of the Stick.
    - it can certainly be fun to after, but it is never "game" or "play"
    The reason for this is that twirling a frayed piece of thread on my gear is never "game" or "play" either. Although, fidget-toys do have a market so I accept some people are naturally more titled toward the Freudian than the Jungian.

    Let's look at some figures:
    Value Pack (90 Days) = 4,500 Pearls = $45
    Value Pack (30 Days) = 1,500 Pearls = $15

    Kamasylve (15 Days) = 1,250 Pearls

    A Typical Subscription Model:
    Monthly = $14.99
    Yearly = $179.88

    My options for paying for Pearls:
    $10 | $20 | $30 | $60 | $100

    Notice anything absent?
    $15 | $45

    Now let's look at what I get for a Value Pack:
    Basically... Weight, Dyes, and Storage
    - Very useful, right?

    However, let's try this: Take 14.99 and double it...
    14.99 | 29.98 | 44.97 | stop
    Okay... this means that a Value Pack is a Subscription Fee

    Now let's look at Kamasylvia's Blessing:
    - I must pay $20 to get the $15 worth of Pearls
    - It is already a Subscription Fee
    - It only worth HALF a month rather than a whole month.
    - Technically this means that to get your money's worth you need to pay twice.
    - $20 | $40 | $60 | ... a full year is worth what then? 15(12) = 180 = 180 (2) = $360.

    Alright, but whatever, right? It's just say Lifeskilling.


    But let me ask you this. Do I need to pay two Subscription Fees in World of Warcraft to spend my entire day Life Skilling?
    - Ala, Herbalism or Mining?
    - Absolutely not.

    How about Final Fantasy 14?
    - No.

    So, why does Black Desert have me pay TWO MMO's worth of Subscription Fees?
    - I haven't even brought up the Secret Book of Old Moon

    Pay close attention to the following video:


    Notice what BDO is selling: A Lifestyle
    - However, with Life Skilling BDO has entered the now expected European/American model
    - "Create a Problem" and then "Sell the solution".
    The Macro Problem is this one. (However, it is not "the whole problem" in this post).

    With the way Life Skilling currently works in BDO if we want to say "Gather" as our Play Style (Lifestyle) we cannot do this.
    - You might want to tell me "Just go do something else".
    - However, you are ignoring everything above and therefore deliberately being dismissive which demonstrates that you are not participating with the conversation, but instead sabotaging it for your own interests or passions. I call you out on this and in like matter do not care any further about you.
    - For everyone else, I continue...
    - Why are we paying:
    a - 1 Subscription model for Weight, Dyes, and Storage.
    b - 1 Subscription model (for twice the cost) to even PLAY the GAME of Lifeskilling. This second being TWICE the cost of the first.
    c - 1 Subscription model (again worth twice the cost of the first) to an EXP boost.
    I don't have an issue C because if you honestly need it that desperately we have either encounter the Macro Problem of the devs deliberately breaking something to have you pay for it or you just haven't been out grinding in ages.

    Here's the thing:
    1. You deliberately broke Life Skilling to the point you cannot even play it without paying.
    - either by buying multiple character slots
    - then grinding
    - to turn the silver into energy pots
    - or turn the silver in to the auction house to get the buff
    - then hope to grind out the money to get the buff again (defeating the point of both the grinding and the buff)
    2. Then you charge us twice a normal monthly subscription to be able to do it.
    3. You are asking me to pay $360 dollars in a year that spans $365 days for a service that is free in any other game.


    You don't respect our time.
    You aren't making a GAME.
    And there isn't anything to PLAY.

    You fundamentally don't understand this.
    - or you do; which is worse


    I have no issues for paying for something I enjoy, but here is what you are doing:
    1. taking away an entire aspect of the game
    - you have been doing this since launch
    2. asking us to pay $$ to get it back
    - only recently did it occur to you to have us pay to get it back
    3. charging us our own played time credits (silver) for its absence otherwise

    I suppose at the deep end of this I might be able to make the silver back by grinding, but this presupposed I actually have the time to grind that much AND that the RNG drops added up to another silver purchase AND that there is a Kama buff on the market.

    How about letting us just PLAY the GAME.
    If you are so financially desperate that you're going to charge us this way rework where it costs us Energy so it doesn't abort our ability to PLAY that aspect of the GAME.
    - and that's fundamentally what I'm pointing out here.
    - you are asking me to pay stupid amounts of money for a problem YOU created that prevents ME from PLAYING
    - I have no issues with the Value Pack (and will keep buying them) because it doesn't break the game so you can have $$$$
    - and don't think people don't notice you do this

    But anyway, the Anniversary event is the only time of the year I actually get to do anything I enjoy (personally) ...even beyond grouping (which I'm always on here ranting about) because it is the only time YOU actually let us PLAY THE GAME.
    - for the rest of the year you sit there in your fake rags pretending to be homeless
    - you have a job
    - do your job
    - get paid
    Stop trying to steal from me and I might just pay you.

    Depends on what you're selling though. How about, to start, stop selling me access to a Samples-Table when I'm already paying you a full Subscription Fee for any other MMO.
    - that might just garner you some love instead of profound animosity and contempt
     
  2. Belle Atwell

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    One thing to keep in mind:
    - Mathing that out made me fairly angry. I think because I haven't said anything for years about this.
    - Got a little tunnel visioned as I was writing and forgot to mention these very important things...

    There is a BENEFIT to the Energy system. It FORCES us to PLAY THE REST OF THE GAME.

    This basically adds to the circulatory system of the game.

    One of the problems you encounter with WoW or Final Fantasy is that people "crystallize" or become "frozen" to a certain activity.

    - this is actually as much of a problem as being "locked out of an activity" (BDO's problem)
    - In BDO to Life Skill on your main character is going to be denied to you at some point fairly soon after you begin, forcing you to use alts until they too are out of Energy.
    - this structure is stupid because we could just as easily have kept going on with our main character doing what we were doing before or going to do in the future on a different character
    - the problem isn't inherently the Energy system
    - it is being locked out of the GAME and PLAY: thereby, further, robbing us of the ability to opt-in on PLAYING in the first place

    With Games like FFXIV or WoW you can pick flowers, mine, and all that all day long.
    - same is true in Dark Age of Camelot: - go kill stuff - salvage - craft

    However, when players can freely-choose what they want to do there needs to be a "reason" for them to stop doing it.
    - boredom is usually the first of these
    - Outside of this, they may never change what they are doing.
    - I think of this like a grid: A: Lifeskills B: Crafting C:Grinding (from crafted equipment) D: Equipment wears down and needs replaced
    BDO doesn't have this make up (DAoC) does.
    - that's why there is always something to do in older games. While newer games grab you both throw throat and kick you out of what you are doing. It's just not the game to be forcibly removed from the gameplay of your choice by a hidden hand when older games had a perfectly good reason for you to get up and change activity that was ORGANIC.

    Energy almost causes this Organic feeling to happen, but since it just prevents me from playing everything when it runs out I hate it.
    - Because it makes you money you don't take this problem seriously.

    It has been a problem for the whole of the game. You really need to stop doing the Korean MMO thing and just chasing those $$ signs. We know you know you want money. We also know you are darned passionate about making this game something unique. Otherwise your environments would be more crap, which they are not, and your events would be more heartless and/or woke. Which they are not. We deeply respect you for this, but when you start getting those $$ in your eyes it is like the song Stopwatch Hearts from Delirium.
    https://genius.com/Delerium-stopwatch-hearts-lyrics
    - we noticed when your heart stops beating and starts to tick.
    - with the current way Energy prevents GAMING and PLAYING it's pretty aggravating.
    - Silver = Time = Progress vs. Time = Token Exchange = Progress would also be a good thing to look at.
     
  3. AlnilamE

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    I'm surprised you didn't include the Book of Old Moon in your calculations.

    That said, I have enough energy that I'm actually happy to run out and be able to do something else when I go gather on my gatherer. I have also made enough energy pots over the years from my alts that I could gather for a while, along with GM's Blessings and other items that work on increasing energy rate.

    I've not bought a Kama blessing ever, and I'm sitting on several unused 7-day ones, because I'll only pop those if I know I have a long weekend and extra time to actively play.

    I'm not sure how much energy you have, but at 519, you can gather for quite a bit with only a couple of extra pots (from alts/rewards), and I have enough other things to do that I'll recover the energy while playing my character. Another thing to keep in mind is that there are dozens of quests in the game that will restore 3 energy that can be played daily. Those also increase contribution XP, which you can't have enough of.

    And note that when the game first came out, processing, cooking and alchemy all used energy as well.

    But going back to the top of the topic, I don't have a VP anymore and I won't buy a book or old moon or kama blessing until they at least streamline the buffs to be combat-oriented for one and life-skill oriented for the other. But best case scenario would be having all of them absorbed into the Value Pack.
     
  4. Belle Atwell

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    Hi AlnilamE,

    I'm at 408 energy.

    To answer your question as best I can...
    1. When I log in the very first thing I do is get Milk
    2. I leave 20 energy behind from that to replant my Farms for Horse Fodder byproducts.
    3. When done, I have zero energy.
    4. For the rest of the day, being that I logged in all day, I will have accumulated exactly 200 energy.
    5. At the close of the day I then Grind and Cook followed by packaging in storage.
    6. on the following I then hand in packages for money.

    If statements:
    If I can buy 500 x 2 off the market I will have enough cooking packages to hand them in the following morning adding an additional step to my morning routine.

    Otherwise, Energy comes 1 every 3 minutes. That's 60 minutes / 3 for 20 energy an hour.
    It would take exactly 20 hours to get back to full energy.

    This means I can't just do Life Skilling as thing. I see your point that Energy isn't that bad if you're starting from the 500 or 400 then doing whatever you enjoy with it until it runs out. By then that's a good time to quit, but I often find that going back to 400 energy after bottoming out is a net-loss on my income. I have to compliment it with something I can exchange for silver to buy the potions. This doesn't always work out. It's hard to judge right now with so many buffs on, but without them I'd say I'd spend five hours or so a night to do everything I'd need to do to get anything worthwhile out of cooking. Even using multiple characters it takes 8 characters to "barely" keep up.

    What I'm ultimately arguing for here is that the activities related to Energy are often blocked from completion by Energy before I get entirely finished. This then leads to several days of staggered productivity.
    - I actually don't have a problem with that issue on the face it. More activities means different things to play.
    - Unfortunately, with the way Silver is linked to Gear is linked to Time there isn't really any way to "Do something else".
    - I cannot, for example, swap an alt and do activities for that alt. Then take things accumulated from that time playing that way such that they convert into some Time-Currency.
    An example of what I mean:
    - Let's say I grind Manes for a few hours.
    - Instead of JUST getting Mane's Hair for Silver I turn it into "Time Earned Tokens" . Perhaps from how many creatures I killed.
    This way, I can go do ANYTHING other than GRIND for say... a gear upgrade.
    - Currently if I need to get Milk my whole game all night and day is "get milk". There is absolutely nothing else I can focus on.
    - Because of this I can never work on my boat or never work on manos clothes even. I can't even do Life Skilling close because it means I can't upgrade my gear.
    And so, the whole system is just complete messed up.


    For the Devs:
    - In the video I linked above the person talks about Guild Wars 2 as a good cash shop model.
    - Please ignore him about that.
    - Guild Wars 2 is exactly where your consumers so often come from and pre-order players came from.
    We passionately hate NCSoft. They are exactly the time of Korean MMO company whose viciousness, laziness, and lies brought us to you. You be as greedy and shallow as you want so long as you never turn into those people. Even compared to Subscription model games you are far, far, beyond the curve of most games.
     
  5. TenFallenOnes

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    Yikes...as a new player... people told me dont go on forums you will regret it...

    Wtf is going on I am level 12 grinding grey foxes this game is FUN
     
  6. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    The reason they do this is because all the stupid ,min/max players will pay to get every little bit extra they can. You do not need any of it to play the game but people really think that they do.
     
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  7. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Heh, you think that's bad? Now pretend you want to get into horse training to make coursers...
     
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  8. DarkGG

    DarkGG Darkiee DarkKnight 61 NA

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    Bdo is all about swiping the credit card, take it from someone that has spent over 5k on bdo, everything is bottleneck for a reason, people say it's not p2w but ultimately it is cause it gives you a huge advantage over any none paying player. Sure they will catch up eventually but it will take them alot longer then someone who drops 100-200$ a month on bdo
     
  9. Naicon

    Naicon Maehwa 63 EU

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    The stupid min/max players keep the servers from getting shut down, just saying.
     
  10. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    No the stupid min/maxers validate this greed. If people only spent money on cosmetic items and refused to support pay to win in the games they play this mechanic would disappear. I am not against spending money to play a game and have spent money in many games in the past. I am also happy to pay a subscription. Sadly this greedy company has three subscriptions plus other myriad of pay to win items.
     
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  11. Naicon

    Naicon Maehwa 63 EU

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    But people wouldn't spend thousands of bucks for only costumes. That means the total gains for the developer get lowered, so the whole speed of the developing and the release of "content" gets slowed down heavily.
     
  12. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    Costumes is all you can think of that is cosmetic, wow you have a poor imagination. How about different pets, different mounts, different carriage skins, different boat skins, more weapon skins and more varied house decorations.
     
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  13. Naicon

    Naicon Maehwa 63 EU

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    It still wouldn't be even remotely close. Just wasted development time for cosmetics some people don't even ask for.
     
  14. Eryola

    Eryola Ranger 62

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    This game could EASILY survive (and do well!) on Value Packs alone. 14.99$ a month has worked for WoW, EverQuest and so many other games for years and years (and server/transfer capacity has never been as cheap as now). The other 2 subscriptions are just plain greed and costume melting for crons is hidden gambling that should be forbidden by governments or at least heavily taxed and restricted to an 18+ crowd. Think about it this way: You enter a casino, you buy a dress there and the casino offers you to trade the dress you just bought into tokens you can use to gamble in there... now what tax should be paid there? Regular sales tax or the much higher gambling one? But... but... but... you can't win any money in BDO, can you? Guess what: it plays with the same mechanisms in your brain like actual gambling (causes the same addictions in some people too) and while you can't officially "sell" your account, there still is some value attached to having better items, which some courts might [rest of sentence not available in Belgium] ;)

    And no, we won't get content any faster, just because they fill their pockets like crazy. Our cash goes directly to Crimson Desert, Project 8 and all the other crap Pearl Abyss is developing... Black Desert is just the cash cow to support their whole company. Stop thinking pay2win has ANY advantage for the player... paying more for the same (or even worse... artificial "inconveniences") service has never been of any advantage.
     
  15. Alextrazsa

    Alextrazsa Sorceress EU

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    I remember the time when processing, cooking and alchemy consumed energy brrrr cold dark times. And yes I agree with the op, you basically pay two subs for one game
     
  16. Sholeh

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    It is, just don't open the Pearlshop, waaaaaaay to expensive, the company behind BDO is ****** disgusting, greedy, criminal scum.

    Have fun though :3
     
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  17. LiquidEmotion

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    You are new to the game so you will likely not experience any of the upset you find in the forums. Yet. There are also a lot of uninformed people making comments about stuff they have no clue about here and they complain about dumb stuff. There are legit concerns though behind all of that. This game does require A LOT of time and investment to get competitive so emotions can be quite high as you get to late game. Maybe as you play more you will understand some of the frustration here but for now just enjoy it.
     
    #17 LiquidEmotion, Mar 9, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
  18. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    exactly because it takes time and commitment is why people are pissed it can be bypassed by the power of the holy wallet or that some people abused certain things (or was it clever use of ingame mechanics?) ingame at right times and gained shitton of silver/gear.
     
  19. RandomHajile

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    yikes. Glad I missed that. Well, it's true, and I dunno who is paying all of these 'subs' but it's good there are enough to go around for people who play the game. Maybe PA is putting some up to buy? Dunno. It's hard to believe thousands of people are buying VPs and kams to sell, but...
     
  20. TenFallenOnes

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    I am just here for the exploration and knowledge, and as soon as I hit the wall I will move to another MMO.

    On day 1 I realized what this game was about, since I was not able to trade silvers with players or trade or set my own market place prices. I promised I wont spend any money and Will just open Pear Store for loyalties.

    For me BDO is a temporary wait game while my gf is building her PC and we are gonna play ESO and FFXIV. Because we like immersive stories.I am just happy I did not invest in this game before knowing what I am getting into. I wish you guys luck with finding a healthy mmo relationship that you are in love with and not suffering from the Stockholm syndrome.
     
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