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How Pay2Win Definitely Robbed Something from the Game

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Belle Atwell, Mar 4, 2020.

  1. kakodaimonos

    Feb 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    So you think LoL, Dota2, PoE or games Like Fortnite/Pubg don't generate that much money?

    The thing is you need to make a good game to generate that amount of money by selling Cosmetics only. If you don't then ofc you will not generate so much.
    BDO couldn't make that amount of money anymore obviously because after the initial hype around the game and people being disappointed in terms of groupplay etc. this game probably lost 70% or more of it's initial playerbase. They couldn't survive on cosmetics alone anymore.
    But they could've if they started with it and made the game an actual Mmo not this half-ass baked one in which group play is mostly punished instead of benifitial. People want to work together and help each other out. Sure they implement a bit of group content here and there but that was way after the release.

    It all depends on how good your game is not on the cashshop itself.
    Kynreaa and Phoenixxx75 like this.
  2. Naicon

    Naicon Maehwa 63 EU

    Jul 19, 2019
    Likes Received:
    But these games have a playerbase thats 10 times, hell even 100 times bigger than bdo.
  3. kakodaimonos

    Feb 18, 2016
    Likes Received:
    You didn't read my entire post. Because that was exactly the point.
    These games were good from the beginning and kept their playerbase.
    While in BDO's case it was very lackluster in the beginning and lost plenty of people.

    Good games can survive on cosmetic shops only. Mediocre/Bad games need to sell way more than that.

    And I mean it's not like these games just run their service and are done with it. Especially in the case of PoE every 3 months there is a new league with insane amounts of new content. That is by far more than what BDO will ever do and yet PoE exists on Costumes (and some storage convenience) only.
    Kynreaa and Phoenixxx75 like this.
  4. LiquidEmotion

    Feb 17, 2017
    Likes Received:
    Oh, then you are solid. BDO is actually AMAZING when you do the true casual approach. Lots to explore and see. You can always go to the in-game market place and put in pre-orders to buy pearl shop items instead of dropping IRL money.
  5. Belle Atwell

    Dec 19, 2015
    Likes Received:
    I didn't mean to start a fire here.

    Let me play Devil's Advocate for a bit.
    - any forum post is always going to have about the coherence of a statement by Don Quixote. It's just the nature of the medium. We get one shot to throw some usually spontaneously realized idea out here that's only vaguely useful.
    - I rarely consider my ideas "good".
    - I highly suppose that this section remains "suggestions"
    This basically throws our forum posts into the realm of "early conjectures". Even my citations above only go and stop at the point of citation. The emotional angst I have with this or that is just me giving my mood at the time. Most often than not forums are used to show where something is wrong rather than where something is going well. I'm sure that makes reading them very "pleasant"

    With that in mind let me attempt to deconstruct some of my own argument....

    When using a Forum it's really important to keep in mind how it works.

    We often don't really know what's going on in the background with game design decisions. It isn't always possible to restructure something once you have engaged in a process. In gaming terms you can think of this as Permanent vs. Temporal Systems.

    A class might use MOD9 to and then 5s to produce a string of numbers.
    This could appear as: 5, 14, 23, 32, 41, 50, 59, 68, 77, 86, 95, 104, 113, 122, 131, 140, 149, 158, 167, ...
    The formula for which is: n = 9 n - 4 (for all terms given)

    If a class is highly dependent on this string of whole numbers then the game will effective "break" if someone alters it for any reason. Thus, you have arrived at a "permanent" system.

    Most modern advanced mathematics attempts to avoid the use of numbers for as long as possible to avoid this issue. This is done by a combination of Algebra and Observation.

    Again, let's look at 9n-4.

    When a designer attempts to address a problem they need to ascertain WHY to use that formula.
    In fact, a designer cannot even do that much. This is because there a PHYSICAL MEDIUM that the designer has to observe.

    As a rule none reading this post will EVER have access to that information. Even if a developer were to tell you what the issue is for their design decision it would not come out as "this makes a Pegasus fly."

    Here's a real to life example of this problem:
    1. Divide a circle into 18 points equal distant points.

    2. Label them 1 through 18 (clockwise).
    { 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18}

    3. Write another 18 numbers after that from 19 to 36.
    { 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36}

    4. Now put the two "series" numbers you have generated in this way over top of one another
    { 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18}
    { 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36}
    Prime Numbers are very unique numbers that are not divisible by an other numbers than 1 and themselves.
    Prime Numbers end in 1, 3, 7, or 9 but not all numbers that end this way are Prime.
    Not all numbers that end with the values of 1, 3, 7, or 9 are Prime.
    Not all Primes are known.
    No formula exists to find all Primes.

    - This can be a major development hurtle for anyone working with mathematics

    What we can parse from this information is that there are 15 primes generated going TWICE around a circle divided in this way:
    2 | 3 | 5 | 7 | 11 | 13 | 17 | 19 | 23 | 29 | 31 | ... (11 primes)

    What's truly fascinating is that these happen to fall at neatly divisions on this structure.
    E.G. is 2 is placed at 12 o'clock

    Rather like this what this post cause: Radiation Symbol
    - not that the frustrations voice don't have validity
    - we have all had own issues with this and that. just keep in mind the tone of voice I used in writing what I did was mostly out of the realization "I'm only going to be able to do this for twenty days and I can't even use it they way I'd like to because need to use all of it for staying ahead of when this ends." - this is an issue I'll address later as "time swapping"


    Now let's look at the structure of the game before everyone gets too overly enraged with the Devs or Marketing Team.

    Life Skills
    Life Skills not all Life Skills use Energy nor do all Life Skills use it the same way.

    This is important.

    No one reading this post has a clear metric for how many players are using the Life Skills.
    No one reading this post has a clear metric for ALL of the places Energy is used.
    - I'm writing this and just as clueless. Probably MORE clueless than some of you simply because it takes me a long time to notice anything and finally talk about it. To say this another way - I'm good at Computation, but not Analytics.

    Value Packs are HIGHLY USEFUL across ALL aspects of PLAY.
    Blessings of Kamasylve are SITUATIONAL in whether or not they USEFUL. However, they are more impactful on GAME.
    - This is precisely why I did not acknowledge Secret Book of Old Moon very much
    - it is also why it is the least referenced above by anyone reading this

    You see, a Secret Book of Old Moon ONLY impacts you IF you are in a hurry to get Skill Points
    - There is no point in the game in which the book can be argued as ESSENTIAL to your Progression
    - Further, the Mysterious Knight is free and common (at least for now) the utility of these by default.

    These are examples of a Permanent System being superseded by Temporal System.
    - The Mysterious Knight is the very definition of a TEMPORAL SYSTEM.

    Temporal Systems:
    When a Developer or Moderator introduces a Consumable Item to you as an Event Reward it is TEMPORAL. It comes into existence, lasts for as long as you need it (that time), and leaves.
    - These types of systems are GOOD FOR YOU.
    - If the Developer changes a Permanent System every time they want to update something you'll quickly end up with a broken game.

    When the Developers gave us the Mysterious Knight when did they do so?
    - Right at the release of a new class AND new class abilities.
    - In other words, they pushed the Fast Forward button on YOUR CHARACTERS for ... FREE
    And they did this FOR MONTHS.
    - And are still doing it...

    They are losing money FOR YOU.

    _____Intermission II_____

    The Problems of Cost and Payments
    - how do you decide what to charge your customer for?

    By now you should be able to see I have ZERO issue with:
    Secret Book of Old Moon = Good
    Value Packs = Good
    I can, have, and will continue to pay for some version of these items for so long as the game exists.

    The reason for this is definitely not intuitive to most people I speak with:
    - However, I've never had someone disagree with me once they hear me out
    - In fact, then tend to agree rather strongly with me
    - most people just don't think this out

    1. A Value Pack is this game's cosmetic purchase. Unlike Guild Wars 2 I can buy this. This frees the devs up from constantly selling me some new pretty dress. I'd really like a new pretty dress, but I'd rather dye it far more.
    - I could easily buy my own storage
    - It would be cheaper in the long run, too
    I really also like the Weight Bonus, even though, again... I could go without

    However, this allows me to:
    a. Dye the heck out of new characters (which I make fairly often just to goof around).
    b. See if I like them enough to purchase outfits or weight for them.
    Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't.
    c. The extra Inventory Space is also a nice boon.
    I can, again, see I like the character enough to bother with it.
    d. I also get extra storage across the WHOLE WORLD ...while also:
    paying something back to a COMPANY I really happen to like quite a lot.

    - despite what you might get out of reading my posts I rarely write them for PLAYERS.
    - I'm writing to the devs.

    I usually, for good or ill, couldn't care less what people think when I post something.
    - this is either because I'm posting materials I didn't entirely come up with (citing from multiple conversations for example)
    - or I'm trying to get a post out in a limited out of time so I have no time to proof read it and really work out the whole thought

    I tend do see Forums as the story of... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote
    - We frequently are spouting off NONSENSE
    - The reason it is Non-sense is because ANY FORUM POST is usually "our first go at it"
    You don't have a clue what other players are doing.
    Neither do I.
    Neither do WE have any idea what the DEVS are doing... or going through....
    Let's not be mistaken about our situation. We haven't a clue what's going on when it comes to the financial decisions players are making.

    I once put two years into a Neurology project only to have the project rejected at the very last moment because we were too far ahead of where the science was.
    It wasn't that the data was bad.
    It wasn't that our study was faulty.
    We were too far ahead of curve. The technology wasn't there. They shut down the lab the professor I was working with had because no one else outside that lab understood what anyone inside was talking about.

    The same thing can happen in a game.

    Look at what happened with Star Wars Galaxies:
    - They released the Jedi and it killed the game.
    - The Jedi was originally supposed to a character you could unlock
    - but each time you used one of its powers in a public setting it gained Notarity
    - Jedi were HUNTED by the EMPIRE at that point in the setting.
    - Thus, if you used a JEDI power your character basically gained PERMANENT THREAT
    - And when that Threat reached a certain point a Bounty Hunter appeared
    - After that it got worse... Imperial Troops would show up.
    - After that it got worse... Vader would show up... at this point you were probably dead
    Unfortunately, this idea was scrapped.


    The Devs messed with
    ... wait for it...

    The Life Skills

    and then the game died....



    _____Intermission III_____


    The Blessing of Kamasylve

    - IS FINE

    Here's why...

    Let's say there are 600,000 people playing BDO across all of its platforms.
    As a rule in any system only 20% of that system actually contributes to it.

    If 600,000 players are playing BDO only 120,000 of them are actually PAYING
    - that's 120,000 people paying... at all

    Now, typically a game might charge you $400 dollars a month to have your own server if you wanted to buy one out right.
    Some games do this. Servers like this can hold maybe 60 people. Then they crash.

    Now, 60 people multiplied by $14.99 is what? $899.4.

    Do you see a problem here?
    You have enough payments from 60 people for... ONE MORE MONTH before you are bankrupt!


    _____Intermission IV_____

    People are not going to pay for all things:
    1. people are not going to pay for all things ... evenly
    2. people are not going to pay for all things ... continuously
    3. people are not going to pay for all things ... reliably
    4. people are not going to pay for all things ... consistently
    5. people are not going to pay for all things ... even if they want to ...
    ... etc
    ... and so on ...

    This means:

    If you are running a game like this there will be droughts where no one is paying...

    I didn't mean to cause frustration or a burden on the devs by writing this post.
    Or to hate them.

    Or to say I hate them. Not to genuinely hate them.
    The emotions I was expressing originally were essentially the hate of hating something that didn't need to be.
    - kind of like when you have someone you really enjoy the company of who nevertheless manages to leave you anxious and frustrated every day because they're immature. The game is often like this for me. Just as I start to get into something it has some condition I need to meet to continue doing it or otherwise i have to drop what I'm doing to go do something else entirely. About 80% of the time I love it. It forces me to get out of the routine I'm in before I come to hate it, but when I really need to just shut my brain off and do this mindless thing because that's what's going to satisfy (or pacify whatever with me that day) ... there's no way to just say... "take everything! just leave me alone with this." Nope. It's like some nag need with its own needs to respect mine.

    I wrote this post to indicate a problem in the structure of Game vs. Pay vs. Play.

    On the player side of things we might say (as I did ~ and I paraphrase) "this energy system is problematic"
    On the PRODUCTION end of things a developer might be saying, "I realize that... but I'm using 9n-1. I need to use 9n-4. Yet, if I tweak the system to do this I can't pay for the servers I have. If I can't pay for my servers then I can't keep the players I have playing."

    In other words, "Just like we use Energy to EVALUATE our earnings for a day," a developer "Uses their server fees, employee wages, and other expenses (which we don't know nor need to know) to EVALUATE the longevity of their product."

    This game is a product.

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that Energy is the measure of that longevity, because it isn't. But, that is the sort of thought that comes up when you are suddenly yanked out of gathering because the game doesn't want to have you make any more money doing this activity vs. that one.
    - It could, for instance let us swap between "energy loot" and "chance loot'. Chance wouldn't use energy, but you could spend all day doing it and only get a few meaningful pay-outs. Just an example of a thought. Not really sure this would work.

    You can enjoy it. You can ask it to be different, but it can only be as different as the parts that make it exist (employees, hardware, stress of the jobs, changing economics for the maintenance fees, etc) permit.

    _____Intermission V_____

    Let me go over some Economics history here as well.

    In the beginnings of the Enlightenment there was Newton, Hegel, and Leibniz.
    Newton wrote in jibberish that Emilie du Chatelet and Voltaire had to translate into 'useful' or 'commonly understandable'.
    Hegel wrote to the imagination for the production of the imagery.
    And Leibniz wrote toward the practical.

    Fortunately, Leibniz won that century as a writer.
    - This meant the mathematics we use today is based on Leibniz's work.
    - We are very fortunate for this

    Today, our situation is like that of the Romans just before their collapse.
    - Hegel was like to Socrates who was like to Homer
    - They spouted non-sense because words are to the imaginary and with them we can imagine anything is possible
    - ... this is why Harry Potter works

    Unfortunately, when you try to apply things like this to REALITY ... very bad things happen.
    - Nazi Germany (36 million dead)
    - Soviet Russia (36 million to 120 million)
    - Cambodia... 1/4 of the population
    - etc... etc... and so on...

    This is why when we play this game we look at something like, "I want a new item," yet not have a very good idea "how to get that item".

    You see, when you reason with WORDS you can fool yourself. There has to be a medium to test things against or mathematics is just another kind of non-sense.
    - and when you reason with words against something real... usually you end up destroying something irreplaceable...
    - ala, everything above.

    _____Intermission VI_____

    The Blessing of Kamasylve is fine.
    three different subscription costs is fine.

    Because YOU aren't paying for ALL Of them.

    You don't need a Secret Book of Old Moon right now.
    - You pay for it when you do. (this is rare)
    - People pay for things like this IF they feel they want to rush to some arbitrary goal they've made up in their head
    - They could just afk grind the points
    - It won't take more than a week usually

    Value Packs
    - Do not alter your income
    - You can grind Manes over and over to get 900 of their loot and get all the same benefit you would from having a Value Pack
    - The primary "joy" of the Value Pack is it lets you cosmetically alter your appears (dyes)

    Blessings of Kamasylve
    - do not help you (that much) from the item drop increase
    - you aren't grinding enough to notice
    - if you are grinding enough to think this matters you haven't used Life Skills yet
    - using energy is not grinding
    - killing creatures is grinding

    What I was trying to get at when I went over the numbers I gave above is how the current IN GAME economics (silver/energy) impacts IN GAME ----------------- >>>>>>>>>> Lifestyles:

    If the game was oriented to supporting us choosing lifestyles over forcing us to take one I think we'd see a lot more contement.

    Freedom - the ability to roam inside a fence
    Liberty - the ability to leave the confines of the fence
    Sovereignty - the ability to construct the fence and determine HOW it influences EVERYTHING else.

    Most people do not seem to have the ability to discern the difference between the first two words. They do not conceive at all the meaning of the third.

    Freedom - Game
    Liberty - Play
    Sovereignty - Developers

    Game - Gathering
    Liberty - WHERE (or how long) you choose to Gather <------------------------------ (this is the point of this entire thread to me)
    Sovereignty - What there is to Gather and HOW the act of gathering influences EVERYTHING ELSE

    If I want to Gather at Long Leaf Sentry Post then that's "my home town", if you will. Sounds pretty ludicrous right? If you Life Skill you might think so. If you grind mobs for money then you definitely think so (though you didn't before they nerfed Cyclops... :(... )

    In games like World of Warcraft when I want to Skin an animal I just do it.
    In games like World of Warcraft when I want to pick a Flower I can just do it.

    You see, the issue is NOT that I "want that flower". It is that I don't want to do anything else.

    You see?

    This is a "Life Style CHOICE".

    This is why a person with a great IQ my appear to "squander" it to become a Carpenter. They might do a really good job making something, but at the end of the day it doesn't pull in the same amount of money as their father and uncles who are all Nuclear Physicists pulling in 100k a year.

    The entire point of why I brought up the details I did above is talk about how ENERGY converges with Silver.

    You see, BDO needs to make money because YOU and I don't get to play this game if they don't. I already demonstrated how easily you can run out of money making games like this. Just to keep the servers going you need to keep a constant cash flow coming in.

    You and I might not "like it", but Star Trek was always a pipe dream. There's a very good reason no one in Star Trek could replenish Dilithum.

    It costs more RESOURCES to MAKE gold than it does to DIG IT OUT OF THE GROUND.
    In Star Trek it costs... Energy to make stuff.

    In BDO we "do stuff" with... Energy.

    However, BDO Developers are smart people and say, "Wait a moment! Wouldn't giving players infinite Energy mean they get Infinite Silver?"

    At that point the entire conversation... always.... always... goes like this:

    Players want infinite money / resources... whatever...
    Then players are mad when their game turns into a graveyard if those things are given...

    The same thing is happening right now in real life. Everyone is living off the ones of the 20th century. No one is PRODUCING anything.
    - seen any new inversions lately?
    - noticed a single innovation worth mention?
    - people talk about reducing spending, but they don't say "on what"?
    Production was halted a long time ago. On everything. People just haven't caught on yet. That's why all the nations are 'mingled' in production. This way no one sees the collapse before it happens simultaneously.

    So, what exactly IS the issue I am trying to discuss and what exactly IS the solution then if isn't these three payment structures:
    - hint: it isn't the payment structures

    When I wrote this I wrote it for the devs.
    - They have the numbers. We don't.

    I'm trying to discuss Life Styles.

    When a player does Bartering that is a Life Style.
    When a player does Gathering. That is a Life Style.
    When a player does Combat. That is a Life Style.

    When a player tries to change (for a day or an hour) from Bartering to Combat...
    - that is several months of transition...

    Remember when I said ENERGY converges with Silver?

    You and I WOULD receive INFINITE MONEY if the Devs didn't have the current system in place that they do.
    - do not mistake this

    This is because when the game was ORIGINALLY conceived it WAS a traditional MMO.
    - this is an example of a Permanent System.

    However, since then we have been granted a VAST ABUNDANCE of TEMPORAL (Temporary) Systems.
    - these RADICALLY ALTER the SPEED at which you and I gain income
    - basically, compared with how the game was at launch ALL OF US ARE FANTASTICALLY RICH
    We just don't realize it because we are COMPETING AGAINST OURSELVES.

    If I want to go get more money the only equation I need to think about is:
    (Future Cost / Personal Daily Income ) - (Current Cost / Personal Daily Income)

    Another way to look at it...
    I have 400 Energy.
    I need 400 Energy a day.
    My ability to do any other activity than this is therefore 400/400 = 1.

    Therefore, I need somehow get something that will convert 400 energy into 600. That extra 200 isn't so I can get more of what I need today. It's so I can get time-enough to do ANYTHING else that I want to do. "Liberty".

    Let's say it takes me 22 hours (without using a buff, potions, or whatever) to get back that 400 energy on ONE character.
    This is where we run into problems.

    1. I need to use the 400 Energy
    2. I need to convert the materials gathered into Silver
    3. I need to recoup the losses from this process (if any) with a second activity that does NOT use energy
    It is at point 3. we encounter the problem.

    Giving me more Energy per day would would mean I could stop worrying about getting Energy.
    Honestly I don't want you do to this.

    The issue is that YOU (as developer) cannot reward me anything ELSE right now.
    1. Hards and Sharps become Silver
    2. Silver becomes better gear
    3. Better gear just means I'm going to head back after more Hards and Sharps for more Silver with better gear for better Gear...
    ....this is an infinite loop

    Gear is not Play.
    - it very much IS however GAME.
    - there is a GAME to making gear

    I've heard you are making Handguns for Hunting.
    - that is also game

    I've heard that we will have greater freedom of motion with our handguns
    - that is play.
    - good. good, good, good.

    You see... the ability to drop Combat for Farming, but still pull in the same income. That is PLAY.
    The ability to CHOOSE to STOP getting Hards and Sharps FOR something that will contribute to my gear aspirations... That is PLAY.

    For the players Reading this:
    The issue you are upset about isn't how much you have to pay for stuff... that's not your enemy despite how much it may appear that way.

    The problem is you are "locked in" to one activity "and locked out" of your preferred on in ways that appear entirely arbitrary or unmanageable through any in-game solution.

    Please note:
    None of the solutions presented in this thread actually resolve the issues I have just mentioned tonight.

    Here's why:

    We as players are asking for "better manageability" of our "play time".
    That's effectively the summary of this post.
    It is also the reason for a lack of solution having been presented.

    Getting more Energy currently means getting more Silver.
    Getting more Silver just means returning to needing more Energy.
    - this is not be sought

    When I said this this is the only time of year I feel I can freely go around Gathering as that is something I enjoy I did not mean I want more Hards and Sharps. I simply don't want to hear or see violence for however long it takes for me to wind down from ...basically a year of permanent grinding 3 to 6 hours a night.

    This is why I got into hunting.
    - the wind blows
    - the grass sways
    - the birds sings
    - the crickets chirp
    - one shot
    - and the serenity returns
    A few hours of that and my "batteries" are recharged. I'm no longer an demon unfit for contact with other human beings.

    The same thing used to be true of fishing.
    - for some reason I have to go in the ocean
    - I can't fish in caves anymore
    - or shallow streams
    MY ability to PLAY is GONE <------------------------------ (this is the point of this entire thread to me)

    - play is choice
    - game is structure
    It's not "gone" because I want it.
    It's "gone" because I used to be able to fish in caves. Now I can't.
    In WoW I could gather to my heart's content. Here I can't.

    - this is also why I wrote this in the Suggestion area and not the General area.
    - we, as players, are not capable of really solving this problem at a technical level

    For the devs to just let me Gather all day, all the time, would mean fundamentally changing not just Gather. It would fundamentally impact ALL of the game.
    - However, the game really does have an issue with regards to PLAY vs. GAME.
    There is an absolutely abundant amount of GAME to be had in BDO. It's truly fantastic.
    PLAY is an entirely different matter...

    The only solution I currently have with regards to this entire post is the follow word: "Faux"

    Energy and Silver are linked because we as players are like the Hyenas in the Lion King.
    Watch this documentary some time:
    How Gamers Killed Ultima Online's Virtual Ecology | War Stories | Ars Technica

    When a civilization first gets started it desires food and shelter. All of the activities that contribute those two goal become virtues and anything that runs against it are vices.

    Later, these very same virtues are looked upon (falsely) not as means, but barriers to the very fruits they produce.

    BDO is a fantastic example of this very situation. Everything we need DIRECTLY NEED early game become INDIRECT COMPONENTS
    to our PRODUCE late game.
    - keep in mine "Late game" is always relative
    - where you were out yesterday makes your today "late game"

    Remember when you got some expensive item that you immediately sold for two better upgrades?
    - what you did in that situation was essentially a "time swap".

    There's an excellent example of this problem in Matthew 25:14-30
    - three men are given coins
    - one man received 5 and gained 5 more
    - one man received 2 and gained 2 more
    - one man received 1 and buried it to receive nothing, but ultimately lost even that 1 coin

    The idea here is that regardless of whether or not you spend money on Secret Books of Old Moon or Blessings of Kamasylve YOU (the player) need to put the time into using it EFFECTIVELY.
    - for example, it took me ages to realize I could sell 1 hard or sharp for 20 or 1000 of something else I needed.
    - prior to that I would throw the hards and sharps in storage
    Money is ONLY EVER immediately valuable

    This is the great secret behind money. You don't just throw money in a bank and expect it to be safe there.
    You turn money into more money because that's how you keep it RELEVANT.

    When my father was growing up he made $2 an hour. Yet, he was able to send me to college recently.
    He understood that money doesn't retain its value.
    Today I could not survive working on my own if made even $10 an hour.

    What has happened?
    - Well, Cell Phones, Computer Parts, and many other things are part of what it means to live in the civilization we live in.
    - Unfortunately, the people that came before us decided to turn respect of nature into a religion while destroying our access to space so we could harvest resources from 9 other uninhabited dead planets rather than our single 1 planet.
    - Further, a family cannot run their own businesses today because corporations have de-evolved governments (or more often absorbed governments) until we are in a New Feudalism.

    In a similar way Energy is just a representation of our character's ability to "labor".
    Silver is that "labor" converted into "relevance".
    Some exchanges are considered more "relevant" than others.

    Therefore, as far as Energy goes this mechanism is DOVE TAILED:
    a. the relationship of its produce to silver. e.g. meat, fur, blood, hards, sharps, etc
    b. the relationship of its prevention of the player's ability to continue certain activities

    Currently, we can convert
    - Energy into
    Assets (usually materials) or (social benefits)
    - Assets into Silver
    - Silver into Time Played Multipliers

    Energy does not currently have a similar relationship to Time Played.
    - The devs have to a small amount addressed this
    - When you use Energy in some circumstances there is a chance it will use less or not Energy compared to before
    - However, there is still currently no way to covert Gathered materials directly back into Energy.

    Here's an example:
    If you have a garden in real life you go and harvest some crop.
    This is tiring.
    Then you go and sit.
    While you sit you sorting and clean the crop.
    Perhaps you leave it out to dry on a table in the sun at the same time you are cleaning the rest.

    When this is done you eat some of that crop.
    You are no longer as tired as you were and go back to harvesting more of it.

    This kind of thing is essentially what permits a player to "regain" energy without letting us "profit" from doing so.
    We'd be gambling that eating the crop to gather more of it would be better than selling what we have to "store" that "progress".

    This is essentially what a "faux" exchange would look like.
    It's "faux" because it is a "zero gain" as far as the player is concerned.

    It is a "profit" as far as the game's HEALTH is concerned because we can then still choose to PAY real money to speed this up... or pay time-spent to play again.
    It also let's us choose how "much" we want to play.
    100/100 energy... use 100 and decide to "consume" 60% of that back for 40% energy to "go again".
    You might complain this is just another kind of gambling.
    I wouldn't disagree except this method avoids ending up on a pointless gear treadmill - which is something this game has so far avoided.

    Now, if we could do something like "freeze the use of Gear X so it could function as Gear Y for time T" we could then there also do activity Y with activity X's gear for the same time T's profits.

    Then we'd have complete agency back to "play".
    - not that this would be fantastic idea either since we'd still need to solve issues of acceleration in productivity and thereby defeating the "zero gain" principle this swapping would allow for.

    Alright, anyway. I just wanted to show that the Developers aren't demons.
    Give them a little slack.

    I wrote in the tone and voice I did originally because I was having an epiphany that had been building for several years. I wasn't writing this suggestion to the players because that's not the purpose of this section of the forums.

    Further, keep in mind that our "first go" at an idea is all that "shows up" on a forum post. Just because my idea might resonate with you or us now doesn't mean it has any long-term validity. I write these posts as things come up. I honestly try to write them with the emotions I was having at the time left bare. This way the devs can get a sense of the reaction I had to whatever. Not because I want them to burn in fire forever or think that they should.

    I also don't think ill of the player base. As games go ours is a pretty good community. I rarely meet people I don't like or don't get along with in this game. If or when I do it has never gone beyond a general sort of, "Eh, okay. I'm going to go over here and shut up. How about you do the same?" 100% of the time that has been the extent of any disagreement I've ever had with someone.

    I think there's a good point to be made about the min/max players, but if the worst we have to deal with is that then okay. I'd much rather be in this situation than something like Guild Wars 2 where selling Cosmetics to us IS the game.
    - And yes... I've done the courser game. That was ouch.

    Most of my angst in writing this post was the frustration I have with wanting to just "play" a bit. Get tired of the monotony that is "grind 3000 creatures who all die one hit". Then, "Oh hey, you're knockbacks and stuns are about to removed from a class that is oriented on control mechanics".
    - they nerfed my pet's brains into oblivion
    - they give it back with succession then apparently nerfed it again (because he's stupid once more)
    - they nerfed by staff so it doesn't have any control mechanics (on a class that is based around control mechanics)
    - I swap to succession because it gave them back

    - then they nerf succession again (soon) to take them away again
    There are maybe half a dozen places I can go in the game now where the creatures drop loot of large-value without any trash who also last long enough to have any "play" to the experience. I mean, I've literally ground Manes for all of the last four years since they came out because I didn't have the weight to go to any other spots. I hate trash loot with a burning passion. I'd rather just "play", but I'd like progress once in awhile.

    To the issue of "time swapping":
    Today a friend was telling me how her guildie ground from 0 to 60 on Potatoes in a month only to then have no gear for their effort.
    - one way or another that player was playing for a month
    - what is one month's time worth?
    - this is a valuable question to explore

    I used 3 years worth of collected outfits to produce 7000 cron stones. Then tried to TET an item that did not TET.
    - is my 3 years irrelevant because it was turned into Cron Stones?
    - why didn't I get some kind of "degraded cron stone slue" or something worth a portion of that whole fail-streak back?
    - this is the kind of thing where the devs are genuinely thoroughly out of touch with reality entirely.

    Final statement in the summary of my thoughts:
    Any suggestions we make regarding Game vs. Play needs to make a strong distinction between what these are. There also, anything that makes a suggestion on how to improve our ability in our agency for how we can choose to play the game needs to be factored against whether it sums to a "zero gain" for us when compared to how fast the devs want us to be accelerating through content. The more zeroes in the games (or the more it assists in maintaining the integrity of the game on the whole) the better off (and probably happier) we'll all be.

    Jannanomana likes this.
  6. Alextrazsa

    Alextrazsa Sorceress EU

    Apr 18, 2016
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    Okaaaaayyyyyy, I have a chicken in the oven, be right back. [​IMG]
    Jannanomana likes this.
  7. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

    Feb 24, 2019
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    Go away.
  8. Capitaine Courage

    Apr 20, 2016
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    Yesterday I ate an apple.
  9. kakodaimonos

    Feb 18, 2016
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  10. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

    Nov 9, 2017
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    Heh, first of all, its not our job to manage their finances, take it into account or any of that...That is their issue and if they choose a path the deteriorates the gameplay experience..they are gonna hear about it, or feel it in their wallet.

    And the value pack does impact silver gains..If anything its the one thing in game that has the most dramatic effect, Why would you even type that it doesent effect silver gains? I mean its neither here nor there, but it is almost a required sub..especially at early game, like the first 2-3 years of play for some accounts.

    As for you trying to play devils advocate.
    Well...you fail just as hard as i did when trying to make excuses for this company :) ..They are competent to run a very successful casino, but thats about it. Them diving into the video game market where they can dodge all the required regulations of running a comparable casino and making money is about as ingenious as me opening a pain management clinic in my basement and selling oxys...The strategy is guaranteed to make billions with any proper investment. So dont use their income as any means of competence scale when it comes to these guys. Are you gonna give em a second chance to rope you into their next casino project?

    They had an amazing graphic design, and world making team..Then screwed it all up, all by them selves gutting it to monetize it in a casino like fashion. It did its job, they dont need any of us defending their incompotence when it comes to running a a successful MMO.

    I once put two years into a Neurology project only to have the project rejected at the very last moment because we were too far ahead of where the science was.
    It wasn't that the data was bad.
    It wasn't that our study was faulty.
    We were too far ahead of curve. The technology wasn't there. They shut down the lab the professor I was working with had because no one else outside that lab understood what anyone inside was talking about.
    The same thing can happen in a game.

    Look at what happened with Star Wars Galaxies:
    - They released the Jedi and it killed the game.
    - The Jedi was originally supposed to a character you could unlock
    - but each time you used one of its powers in a public setting it gained Notarity
    - Jedi were HUNTED by the EMPIRE at that point in the setting.
    - Thus, if you used a JEDI power your character basically gained PERMANENT THREAT
    - And when that Threat reached a certain point a Bounty Hunter appeared
    - After that it got worse... Imperial Troops would show up.
    - After that it got worse... Vader would show up... at this point you were probably dead
    Unfortunately, this idea was scrapped."

    That is unfortunate. The whole point of this capitalist system is because its supposed to prioritize Human progression. In most cases it works, for instance with your professors example. That is just what happens when you dont invest in a proper sales person to keep his funding coming.

    With star wars galaxies I imagine the masses took control of what was pretty much a future proof system to prevent everyone making an OP jedi, and demanded the devs change it to fit their wants..and like you said it turned the game barren once they appeased the masses. Much like another topic on this thread where people think they want a Pve only channel..some people just dont think things through. To make it about the devs...Their aggressive monetization has gutted the soul of this game. Its hollow, yet it had SO much potential..that potential is just gone now.

    LoL its not that hard of a read, takes about 45 seconds out of your day if you are interested..
    TLDR though: Hes just trying to make excuses for these devs mishandling of the PC market..If this was a ftp, mobile type game..it would feel right at home.
    #30 Kynreaa, Mar 9, 2020
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2020
    Phoenixxx75 likes this.

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