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I did a dangerous thing (tier list)

Discussion in 'PvP' started by okatsu, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. okatsu

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    Feel free to give input. The only class I'm 100% unsure of the placement of is Berserker since I've never played him, no one I know has played him within the last year and I get very few opportunities to play against him.

    Disclaimer:
    Don't cry at me if I said your class was easy it's an opinion based on certain tools/ required mechanical skill and also I just don't care.
    This list is based purely on 1v1 viability at NA soft cap (AP accs) gear score. The list changes drastically when you go to levels like ~270 AP (i.e: warrior valkyrie move to the absolute bottom where wiz witch are now.) The list also assumes the fight takes place in a completely controlled environment such as arena of arsha or battle arena where the only variable factor fighters have to consider is resistances. (Also assuming the resistances are equal)

    Edit: Tier list draft 2 after some community feedback
    [​IMG]
     
    #1 okatsu, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  2. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    I don't know why you place wiz/witch as low difficulty in a 1v1 fight. Witch/wizard are only easy to play in mass pvp, when you can just rotate SA non-stop but its completely different in 1v1. They cannot just spam SA skills and hope to win. If you want to win, you need to kite and use freeze/cc, you cannot directly engage any class at all or you get instant grabbed/CC. IMO, it needs to move up in difficulty scale significantly.
     
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  3. Souda

    Souda Warrior 61 EU

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    Didn't know tamers were that good
     
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  4. okatsu

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    I made them low difficulty because nothing in their kit is hard to use. It isn't difficult to kite someone like you said. I agree it is difficult to make their kit work in a 1v1 situation but that isn't what I based the difficulty off of. Getting taken advantage of by a player of these classes is more of a flop on the opponents side rather than an outplay by the witch/ wiz.

    Yeah I may have given tamer a little too much credit. I don't personally feel I can accurately portray their difficulty level without sliding them off the right of the chart though, as to say they're that good when you're playing at such a high difficulty level that it's almost not even worth it. I also think, just like witch and wizard, the very existence of striker and mystic make them less viable, but it's hard to deny tamer's strength in a 1v1 at high level.
     
    #4 okatsu, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  5. Velexia

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    I like how Witches and Wizards claim they can't 1v1, yet they can 1v10 no problem ;)
    With only the ability to be indestructible, instant cast spells, kill people in a single skill, teleport out of sight, and heal to full health anytime I can see how Witches and Wizards have a hard time ;)
     
  6. Maelvogar

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    [​IMG] Fixed this for you. Its slightly more accurate
     
  7. Netreiam

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    This is exactly what I was looking for in a thread I created a while ago.


    I feel wiz/witch can be anywhere from low bottom with valk to just below mid tier haven’t really gotten the chance to fight one 1v1 recently. difficulty seems about right.

    Also while tamer can be difficult to play she is pretty strong in my experience in 1v1. She can be very slippery in experienced hands and that coupled with a notoriously long reaching grab is all you really need for at least mid tier. Combine that with decent protected AoE CC, a Lingering CC trap, and random CC from heilang that can result in a complete reversal if you actually do catch them, I believe the initial position was pretty accurate.
     
  8. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    when you say 1v10, you mean with PA i assume? PA has a c/d of 3mins and cannot be used in 1v1. You obviously are a witchard hater and don't know anything about the class, even though you get owned by them in NW and you constantly hear the shot caller calling "PA PA".
     
  9. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    Actually it is hard to kite someone, especially with one of the slowest classes in the game, especially when a class with dash can close the distance in an instant. If your difficulty to use kit is based on how "hard to use" skills is, everyclass would be the same difficulty...I mean, it isn't hard to spam skills with hot keys or remember a few combos.

    Difficulty should be based on using the correct skills in the correct situation during the fight and that is very hard, especially in this meta where the first cc you land wins. Wit/Wiz has very few cc, with the few that can be used effectively in a 1v1 such as freeze, which is unprotected and requires very good precision. This is very difficult to achieve against high mobility classes, classes that can close the gap in an instant like zerkers and classes with iframe. Other common cc skills used are grab for wiz and pet special, grab being very hard to pull off because its easy to spot, low mobility of the class and it has a very small hit box and the pet special requiring very good timing to pull off effectively.
     
    #9 Bob2009, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  10. NatashaArisha

    NatashaArisha ShinobuAraragi Witch 61 NA

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    My personal tier list:
    1. The guy with full PEN
    2. Everyone else
     
  11. Netreiam

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    Being blindsided by a witch teleporting in and 1 shotting entire groups of players with a voltaic pulse that can’t be grabbed due to Q buff + PA is a pretty saltifying experience.

    That said, that’s in groups where you can’t keep tabs on every single player constantly.

    People seem to keep forgetting this is a 1v1 tier list.


    :|

    Not everyone has full pen and it is within the realm of possibility to fight someone who doesn’t completely outgear you/ is too weak.
     
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  12. NatashaArisha

    NatashaArisha ShinobuAraragi Witch 61 NA

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    I RBF pretty often and I think most people is blind. A wiz/witch can just TP in and if I don't grab them, no one will until it's too late. They literally just stand there and stare at them lol. Even if you grab them, they still stand there S blocking, doesn't push, and doesn't follow up even if the wiz/witch got like 1k points.

    I do the same while playing witch and it's the same thing.
     
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  13. Netreiam

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    Omfg I know exactly what you mean. I’ve been forced to attempt unprotected dashes to try and get close enough to grab because I’m the only person to even attempt to grab kamikaze-ing wizards/witches on too many occasions to count. It sucks the most when the grab goes off and just gets resisted and you still die :/

    It just blows my mind the kind of dumb stuff you see people do. Between that, people chasing single digit sorcs/DKs and bladers, and engage classes hanging around in backline; RBF really gets on my nerves.
     
  14. okatsu

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    The circumstances under which my tier list was made are explicitly stated in the post and people are still charging in talking about what a class can do in large scale and how strong gear is.
     
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  15. okatsu

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    I can agree with this, and it's kind of what I mean.
    Using witch or wizard, given the right situation, it is very difficult to make a mistake leading to dropping a combo or doing unoptimal damage, that's why they're so low. Their kit is so limited that they barely have an opportunity to make a mistake. That being said their kit is limited and it makes it pretty difficult to get in on some classes but I don't think that increases the difficulty of the class that's just the reason the class falls into as low a tier as it is.
    It looks like the changes you made reflect more of a bias all things considered.
    I could see it as more of a large scale tier list where I'd agree warrior and tamer get much worse but I don't see how mystic would rise above striker at all.
     
    #15 okatsu, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  16. FrozenReaper

    FrozenReaper Archer 62 EU

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    tbh would not put warrior that low difficulty+low tier, maybe for casual ish player... but anyone who spent time practicing 1v1 and learning those awa+preawa cancel +13skill combos i would put warrior more to up right corner not much but still in that area
     
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  17. Netreiam

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    About as difficult as DK and strong tier wise as ranger maybe?

    Also, I think ranger is a lot more difficult than than the graphic shows. In a group setting where you can spam bow attacks she’s pretty simple, but being able to fight toe-to-toe with other classes requires a lot of technical skill because her protections are very sparse and her cooldowns are very high. At the very least she should be in-line with or maybe even slightly more difficult than DK, who I feel (compared to ranger) is more limited by her tool kit (lack of grab) than her complexity.
     
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  18. Exaah

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    what?
     
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  19. levinano

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    I would:
    1. Move Ranger to the right past Lahn (Cancels, cooldown, and combos that require learning and is more difficult to execute compared to Lahn which has flat controls, lack of protection and protected movements in Pre-Awakening)

    2. Blades to the right (camera flip, positioning, timing, stamina management, cancels + connector and combo learning)

    3. Musa on the same height level as Mae (At softcap AP there's somewhat of a possibility to rotate damaging SAs/FGs and AoEs to melt people, 360 is better than a 90 degree cone but they're super slow, initiator CCs are stuns and not stiffs, bad for comboing, overall same level as Mae).

    4. DK to the left (low learning curve, SHIFT ftw) or Blades to the right past DK.

    5. Warrior to the right to where the Zerker is if not further right (little to no protected pre-awaken engages, two awakened SAs without CC or lingering SA, C swap from Awaken to pre-awaken unprotected, must press Q+C, large combo variety and lots of secrets to learn)

    6. Witch Wizard up and to the right (Mouse movements, debuffing and combing, juking with teleports, half the times against good Witch/Wizards, after they teleport you just have no idea where they are anymore)



    Like the OP, just personal opinion based on personal experiences. Feel free to refute/correct me.

    Also, classes' OPness changes depending on the class you play. I play Mae, and Ninja and Ranger is pretty far below the line along with Valk for me, and everyone else above it.
    Ninja - lots of exploitable holes, low amounts of AoEs, difficult movements compared to ours, Blockjump means absolutely nothing to us. On the other hand, Kuno's AoE CCs that blindside our FGs are more deadly to us.
    This becomes kind of evident when you watch Shaky and Nayashe absolutely destroy our beloved Layvan :/

    Rangers - can kite and bait main hand, bait the ranged CCs and sneak in an arrow for stiffing, squishy, can be one comboed at low AP.
     
    #19 levinano, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  20. Rysingmoon

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    If you put Ranger that high in top tier, they are not soft cap anymore. Either you move her to the right edge to higher difficulty, indicating only highly skilled vets with relatively bad gear can play her properly, or move her down to Valk level.
     
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