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I did a dangerous thing (tier list)

Discussion in 'PvP' started by okatsu, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. AZzalor

    AZzalor EU

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    it's about 1v1s...tamers are pretty good in 1v1s while witchards are the worst 1v1 classes, so no reason to put them that high.
     
  2. Rysingmoon

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    Agreed. But why is Ninja and Sorc "difficult"?

    IMHO, a skill set where almost every skill is protected, even though requiring some timing and practice and where mostly nothing can go wrong unexpectedly with the planned combo in mind, is not really difficult. Sure, you require a "base" level of practice and some good light-fingeredness on the keyboard and your brain - but we are talking about softcap, this should include one year of practice as a casual frequently practicing PvP.


    Then when we define the middle line as the level of practice which is required to play a virtual class that represents the average of all classes in an average manner, we must re-place several classes. For example, Sorc is no longer on the right edge, rather slightly right of the middle. Ninja possibly far left, possibly in the middle on the left half (Ninjas with three month practice excel already in RBF). Kuno possibly on the right most edge. Ranger - if set on the top tier level - would have to be moved quite a bit on the right side, because in order to perform well in soft cap requires a quite a bit practice and very good skills - certainly not obtainable in three months playing. But I would rather set Ranger in lower tier with difficulty slightly right of the middle axis, there where Valk is.
     
    #22 Rysingmoon, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  3. I think it’s just the optics of seeing tamer anywhere near the meta memers that makes the graph look off in that respect.

    That and saying war is low tier low difficulty in 1v1 is just plain wrong. That is one of the few times I’d say an opinion can be straightly wrong.

    1v1 is still the place where warrior shines, and it’s not because of the brain dead lsa sod gravedigger failsafes of the past, but the preeminent effectiveness of their main hand kit now. Even as a tamer I would say warriors full 1v1 combo is harder than ours now with more variation and ways to react to resists.

    Warrior’s position on OP chart is reflective of where they were skill floor wise pre March and not where they are now.
     
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  4. Crimson_Scarlet

    Crimson_Scarlet Shai 60 NA

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    1v1 easy mode

    -mystic/striker very good for fotm reroller

    -good ninja/kuno not fotm reroller trash

    Then there is 1v1 for everyone else who pvps and has an idea of what their matchup is like and also some experience against them (class)

    These are some important factors though since some classes have 1 thing but others may have many

    -who engages first is a gamble because if you get cc while charging your dead
    -who gets the first cc off
    -who got a better burst
    -who desyncs more
    -whos the better turtle mainly for valks/warriors
    -RNG cc
    -who runs out of pots first
    -whos got better ping and fps

    For the older classes if you mained 1 and learnt it with all its ins and outs and have experience against all the other ones then the advantage is to you , but if your a noob who doesnt pvp and runs into some who does then advantage is to them.
     
  5. o.o you confuse tamer grab with ninja main hand grab. Tamer has crab hands.
     
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  6. AZzalor

    AZzalor EU

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    Did you ever play those classes? Did you even look at their skills? They don't have "almost every skill protected", they actually have barely protection in their skills, but they have some protected movement. Once they strike they are open for counter attacks.
     
  7. 6footgeeks

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    upload_2018-10-25_14-46-54.png



    I might get flak for the witchard placements, bus playing them for 2+ years (witch specifically) ive always felt pretty average when facing off all classes (except stroker and mistake of course), hell id say in the current environment i win a lot more since so many people got their protections stripped and the amount of time MOST classes can CC me is a lot less

    made from 1v1 perspective keeping in mind full TRI - Soft cap. cant comment on softcap beyond since im just a pleb happy with never enhancing my softcap gear.

    And i dont see any tamers anymore so they might as well not even exist

    ****...

    i havent even heard a peep from Lemon for a while


    All in all id say, looking outward in the current balance doesnt seem much worse/better than previous, just flipped roles here and there on three classes. some that were bad stayed bad. Some that were good, stayed good.
     
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  8. Xenon

    Xenon Kallitren Ninja 61 NA

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    There are a lot of factors to consider here when placing where each class is at.

    1. Ninja is pretty much accurate to where it's at. It's objectively the best 1v1 class in the game and is difficult to play and difficult to master.
    2. Sorc is pretty much accurate.
    3. Kuno is misplaced. She is higher in difficulty than Striker/Mystic, but she performs at a much worse level than them or even Tamer in a 1v1. She's still a high tier class, but definitely below those three in a 1v1.
    4. Mystic should be right about at where Sorc is, just slightly below it, but fully at the left end of the spectrum. This class is one of the easiest to play, easiest to master. You can win with it by rolling your face on the keyboard, as has been proven time and time again, and more recently in that esports tournament that showed off multiple online games. The one I'm referencing was with the mystic player who kept hitting the guild hotkey mid fight and still won the whole thing.
    5. Striker would be just slightly below mystic as it is, but to the right of her in terms of difficulty.
    6. Tamer would be at or above Striker or maybe even Mystic.
    7. Ranger should be lower than Musa/Maehwa. Her 1v1 isn't that amazing anymore. About middling now. Difficulty should be curved more towards the right, probably between Musa/Maehwa's current spot.
    8. Berserker is fine.
    9. Musa/Maehwa should be around where Ranger is in tier placement. Kuno above them in tier. Musa more to the left, Mae to the right.
    10. Lahn is probably fine. Maybe deserves to be in the same place as Mae in the adjusted tier order.
    11. DK is fine in terms of her tier placement, deserves to be much lower on difficulty spectrum. She's about middle or less in terms of overall difficulty.
    12. Warrior should be right in the middle. Easy to learn to play, very difficult to master. His performance is below average.
    13. Everything else is accurate.

    So in 1v1 tier order, best to worst, imo:
    --best equipped to deal with most/all classes--
    1. Ninja
    2. Sorc
    3. Mystic
    4. Striker/Tamer
    5. Kuno
    --Moderately well equipped to deal with most classes, has some issues--
    6. Lahn
    7. Musa
    8. Maehwa
    --Has some decent tools to deal with others, can still win, gutted compared to how it used to be--
    9. Berserker
    10. Ranger
    11. Warrior
    12. DK
    --Is barely alive anymore, low chance of success--
    13. Valk
    --Not made for 1v1 before 270 ap, very low chance of success before then--
    14. Wizard
    15. Witch

    Difficulty, highest to lowest:
    --Much harder to play, hard to master--
    1. Tamer (Wonky/gutted protections, combo difficulty, severe pet issues including lack of control, weird main hand)
    2. Sorc/Ninja/Kuno (Major stamina issues, wonky protections, combo difficulty, gutted protections more so in Kuno's and Sorc's case; less so for Ninja)
    3. Valk (Major stamina issues, positioning, less protections to work with, combo difficulty, gutted kit)
    --Harder to play, hard to master--
    4. Ranger (Major Stamina/Mana issues, positioning, less protections to work with, gutted kit)
    --Medium difficulty--
    5. Maewha/Berserker (Stamina, positioning, less protections to work with, gutted kit)
    6. Warrior (Stamina, positioning, guard, gutted kit)
    --Easier to play, harder to master--
    7. Musa (Stamina, positioning, guard)
    --Easy to play--
    8. DK/Witch/Wizard (Stamina (former), animation length (latter two), and positioning)
    --Easy af to play--
    9. Lahn (Stamina and positioning)
    10. Striker (Martial shards and positioning)
    11. Mystic (Martial shards and positioning)

    Also, you might want to change the title of the thread or add text to the image that implies this is a 1v1 tier list.
     
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  9. Ziney

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    Fake News!
     
  10. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    well, tbh, any class can delete you if you dont know they are engaging you coz u r busy with something else. but chaos of a mass pvp does help to eliminate/mask some of the witchzards kit minuses.
     
  11. Tbh all of this is irrelevant because lol@ BDO pvp scene and the only 1v1 arena is just in the form of agreements between players to duel, whether in battle arena or open world.

    That’s not to say that the action combat system isn’t great; it is, but the abscence of balance between classes and gear scaling shits all over that.
     
  12. Prim nw

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    Always wondered why the opinion of the ppl that make these tierlists even play the game..

    Like how obvious it is how broken some classes are and yet they are placed at the bottom or the opposite. Why make a tierlist at all when u going to place DK same tier as warrior?? Just that alone shows u have no clue about the state of pvp

    And if this was based around arena of arsha then why would ranger be close to the top & wizards all the way down.. afaik theyre both large scale classes

    Either way the responses here with 'corrections' are even further off
     
  13. Why bother responding if you didn’t bother reading the op?

    It’s a 1v1 tier list at softcap. Yeah a couple classes are off, but not in the way you’re looking at it.
     
  14. thdsm

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    The difficulty scale only makes sense if you add a clarification that it is the difficulty at skill floor, or in other words how hard would a brand new player find it to hit a target dummy and keep it on the floor using a particular class.
     
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  15. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    how is it irrelevant if it secures a grind spot? or the right to call the other guy karmabomber or whatever other shiet people call each other afterwards
     
  16. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Witch 62 NA

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    Edited.

    Looks like I looked at a modified list. Will change post if applicable.
     
    #36 LoganSilver, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  17. okatsu

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    This is a good point. I somehow let matchups slip my mind when constructing the list which for the most part affected rangers placement, but considering a lot of classes, but most importantly all the best classes, have the protected mobility to nearly negate how effective her ranged damage is it kinda puts her in a bad spot.
    I think you're looking at the wrong list there pal.
    I'm choosing to only leave it as is, that way only people with the brain power to actually read a post will be engaged in discussion
     
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  18. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Witch 62 NA

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    Thanks. I think I ended up loading someone’s reply with an edited picture (mobile phone issues). Thanks for pointing it out.
     
  19. okatsu

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    [​IMG]

    Here's a 2nd draft that takes into account some community feedback.

    I chose to leave witchard as they were since I still heavily disagree they have the tools to move upwards from low tier at all. I also don't really agree that them being forced to play a different way than large scale makes them inherently more difficult it just says more about how bad their lack of tools leaves them in the tier list.

    Ranger moved down heavy simply because she gets absolutely shafted by all the best classes. Even though she still does pretty heavy damage even at softcap and can reliably make it difficult to block all of that requires her to use bow which is heavily countered by the good classes with high mobility.

    Fan favorite warrior got moved over although I still don't agree he's all that difficult or viable. There's definitely no denying it takes quite a bit of effort to pull off his more optimized combos though.

    Despite a few remarks saying DK was more on the easy side I left her where she is on the difficulty level just because she really doesn't have much going for her when it comes to her low effort play style at softcap. She can't reliably melt guard like she can beyond softcap so she can't rely on kiting. She also has very few CCs that don't have extremely long cast animations which leave her really susceptible to damage and grabs so she has to bait those out.

    Mystic got moved up higher above striker due to her ability to constantly upkeep debuffs but I left her at a more difficult level than striker since her low damage often times makes her have to do more than one combo to get kills unless she gets really reliable CC where striker really doesn't have to worry about that.

    Musa/Maewha increased in tier and difficulty but nothing too remarkable to note.

    I moved Lahn down to make myself feel better :^) (but really because of her piss poor damage and heavy reliance on knockdown which is extremely easy to stack resistance against. Short cool downs save her but out of her whole kit she really only has 3 maybe 4 moves that reliably do damage.)

    Valkyrie is undeniably bad but still stands above witchard since they're still able to get kills. Berserker is still up in the air but still leaning towards good in 1v1.

    There's a lot of concentration in the top half of the tier list because for the most part every class can beat another class without too much trouble so pretty much everyone is viable (mid tier or higher) If I stop being lazy I'll decrease the negative values on the X and Y axes to allow more room for disparity between classes.

    PS: I'm pretty pleased that most people aren't coming into this thread throwing a temper tantrum and instead are actually giving their reasoning behind why they agree / disagree with certain things. Keep up the good discussion.
     
    #39 okatsu, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
  20. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    Let me add elaborate on my earlier post. Playing witchard in mass pvp is completely different than in 1v1. The reason everyone says witchard is easy is because in mass pvp, all you need to do is rotate your SA aoe skills, so basically you cast PA, teleport to blob, SA combo, rabam heal and teleport out. You stay stationary throughout the fight apart from the beginning of the engage when you run and teleport into the blob. However, this does not work at all in 1v1 because the instant you cast SA skills, most of which does not have any CC at all, you get either grabbed or out manouvered and CCed. In this meta, especially in 1v1, the first to be CCed wins. As i stated in my earlier post, you have to constantly kite, freeze, teleport to a better position and out maneuver your opponent but this is very hard atm. Also, teleporting in mass pvp is completely different than 1v1 because in mass pvp, you have your guildies to tank and cover you when you retreat by teleporting but in 1v1, then instant you teleport, any other class can easily close the distance in an instant with dashes or iframes. Therefore, IMO, witchard should be much higher difficulty, especially higher than mystic or striker.

    Below is a video of a good wiz at 1v1. edit. removed out dated vid with an more updated version.



    Another video of 1v1. Keep in mind that the wiz probably out gears everyone he fights since he is in enemy but you can see there are so many different combos and spells you need to use in the correct time and situation if you want to effectively beat someone in 1v1.



    In comparison, this is a video of wizard in mass pvp where you just spam a few set of SA skills, (significantly less than in 1v1).

     
    #40 Bob2009, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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