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I did a dangerous thing (tier list)

Discussion in 'PvP' started by okatsu, Oct 24, 2018.

  1. Soulo

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    For the record (and since I myself fell prey to this view but was proven wrong) wizards/witch are NOT easy mode just because they CAN (instant cast spells,heal, be invincible, teleport). When you play one and actually try, you'll see like I did.

    YES they have all those amaaazing tools at their disposal...just try using even half of them in most fights. It's doable and all, but it's so old-school (unlike newer classes that are fluid with preawakening and awakening transitions).

    What I mean by all this is that wizard has so many abilities that can ONLY be quick slotted. That's fine right? Then add that half of those skills bring you back to pre-awakening (they are preawakening), fine right(not sarcastic). Now add in only 1 skill with the ability to auto switch you from pre to awakening. Now add in animation time which most of the skills have albeit they have SA but that's irrelevant. Now add in the easy grab with tp on cooldown.

    All those things are indeed minor. Together though? Whew, when someone tries to 1vs1 or jump you, you are in for some serious work just using all the amazing tools you have. You will use maybe half before you are dead. Just sayin

    Edit: ohhh and don't forget, 1/3 of those amazing abilities (such as instant cast and PA) have an amazing cooldown that, with fights these days ,could maybe be used once? But wiz/witch IS easy dmg..but survivability is where the skill comes in
     
    #41 Soulo, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  2. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Mystic 61 NA

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    I can’t speak from personal experience for every class. I can speak for personal experience with extensive pvp on berserker and witch, and a good 20+ hours of pvp on mystic (by far the least experience of the three).The following applies to small scale and not large scale.

    When on a berserker or mystic, I try to control the fight. I look for opportunities. I dictate when I engage. I worry about chaining combos (especially berserker). I decide when to initiate and when to retreat.


    When I play on witch, I worry about positioning. I worry about reacting to my opponent and tracking their abilities. I worry about avoiding grabs. I play reactively. I don’t dictate the tone of the fight, the other player does (unless I know I outgear them). I react to them. I have to balance using the right defensive cooldowns. If my opppnent makes a mistake, I have to switch to offense. If they are most classes, killing them is easy once I CC them. If they are very geared or a striker/mystic, I may need to extend to unreliable pre-awaken combos that leave me vulnerable. Luckily, I have decent ap (266), so most classes are easy to kill after CCing them. The problem is staying alive long enough to get them CC’d


    The skill with playing a witch is positioning, staying alive, tracking cooldowns (for both you and your opponent), and to a much lesser extend combos. The skill with playing a mystic/zerker is comboing, tracking cooldowns (for both you and your opponent), and to a lesser extent positioning. While I wouldn’t argue the witch is easier to play, I will say that the witch has a lot less outplay potential.


    What do I mean by this? Witch has a very low skill floor for average performance. While it has a lower skill ceiling than many other classes, getting to the skill ceiling is impractical as no one plays perfectly, knows everything about every class/skill in the game, and never makes mistakes. But while the skill ceiling is unreachable, the class has very limited outplay potential. Many other classes can outplay a skilled opponent if they play smart. A witch, even a perfectly played one, has limited options to outplay.


    I don’t think witch/wizard were placed incorrectly as low skill classes. They take low skill for average performance. Furthermore, they have less outplay potential with top tier performance. While the skill ceiling is unreachable, even if you reach it, you ability to gain an advantage at the skill ceiling is much less than most other classes. Thus, while a skilled witch can differentiate themselves from an average one, they can’t do so to the same extent as say a skilled ninja. Thus, stating the class is less impacted by skill would be accurate.



    TLDR: Like every other class, witches have impossible to reach skill ceilings and good witch is much better than an average one. But the difference between a top tier witch and a good witch is less than the difference between a top tier ninja and a god ninja. Why? The class has less outplay potential. And this is true when comparing witch/wizard to most other classes.
     
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  3. okatsu

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    I suppose I'll have to take into account the wizard players' word when considering how difficult it is to pull off a win in 1v1 but in my defense:

    I don't really consider wizard witch low difficulty because of all those things that make them very strong in mass pvp such as PA or a full heal. If anything I think it makes them even worse in a 1v1 situation. Their tool kit is designed specifically to bring these strong tools to the aide of their allies in a large scale fight so they fall off when they're on their own. More often than not trying to cast a full heal in a 1v1 will leave you at disadvantage and casting PA will just get you kited for 10 seconds.

    Why I placed them so low in difficulty is because I still have yet to see like Logan said:
    Even in the videos Bob provided most of the kills netted by the wizards were them capitalizing on opponents mistakes. And I wish there were examples at softcap because at the levels of AP shown in the vids (~270 AP) it is actually very easy to force your opponent to slip up in some way. Here opponents have no opportunity to sit in super armor since they'll die and frontal guard is practically non-existant, which leads to the opponent being unable to recover any stamina or wait out cooldowns. The hardest thing for a witch or wizard to do is to pinpoint that moment where their opponent is out of resources and then capitalize with something like a CC that'll turn the tide. Until then they're stuck just rotating the same SA up close or launching the same magic from afar until they've made an opening.

    And at softcap that opening almost never comes up for a witchard.

    TL;DR (for both Logan and I if he doesn't mind):
    We're not saying the classes are just brain dead easy to play by placing them at that end of the tier list, we're trying to say it doesn't really matter how good you are, the skill gap doesn't effect the performance that heavy in 1v1.
     
    #43 okatsu, Oct 25, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2018
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  4. Decem

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    Love how that guy put warrior into low difficulty+low tier.

    Meanwhile best warrior streamer currently (Remake) with 21235APM precisely timing this 0.5s long superarmor and 0,6s long FG getting CCed by some random mystic/sorc/ninja pissing around.

    Warriror is fkn hard to play atm and doesnt matter if you are 253 or 280ap. Once u leave block and u **** up cooldowns and timings ur done. And even those 2 bugged SA which keeps u stationary doesnt help (*cough* grave digger and slashing which has huge gap at the end of animation).
    Two 0.5s long protected CCs makes you really want to know what you are doing. Cuz thats all warriors have atm except block which gets destroyed by any fart flying around in this utterly garbabe AP meta where luck = power.
     
  5. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    I would have to disagree. Skill does make a big difference between winning and losing because If you make a single mistake as a witchard, you lose almost instantly in a single combo because a witchard is so squishy. Not only is it hard to CC someone, it is also very easy to lose. However, a mystic or striker can tank so many combo, even when CCed or grabbed and still be able to kill someone. E.g. I (soft capped) played against equally geared opponents of other classes and I basically just spammed SA skills like in NW. Guess what? I got grabbed/CCed instantly and died because my SA skills don't have CC. After a few repeated attempts, I had to learn to use CC skills/combos that lack SA when kiting because the first to CC wins in this meta and SA only when they are meleeing me. What I'm basically arguing is that witchard should be more difficult to play than a mystic/striker in a 1v1 scenario.
     
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  6. okatsu

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    You literally just described why warrior is low tier.
    Also described why I personally put him in low difficulty, this esteemed streamer you're describing put in all that work and the end result was pretty much the same as a warrior who would've, instead, just done a basic day 1 combo.

    A high skill play getting the same result as a low skill play makes it low skill
    A class having very little reliable tools that PA has gutted and given him nothing else since makes him low tier. I also mentioned that when you get into the 270+ AP levels warrior gets even worse like you mentioned.

    This is just my opinion
     
  7. Thelemna

    Thelemna Softspoken Tamer 63 NA

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    It's still weird to see tamer so far on the difficulty scale. Maybe I'm biased, but it's not that hard. You just have to do a lot with a little, but I guess it comes down to how you qualify difficulty.

    Woooo boy, I think I see why we differ here. Gonna leave that hot mess alone.
     
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  8. Decem

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    I accept your opinion but having class where putting tremendous time into learning it gives u very small advantage over class where u can just smash buttons and do better means class is low tier and high difficulty. Your definiton of low tier doesnt fit here. Its high effort, low reward class due to its bad toolkit.
     
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  9. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

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    All classes that have a grab need to be moved to the left, classes that have stealth and iframe need to be moved to the left, how is ninja and Kuno considered to be “a difficult “ class to play is beyond me, what makes them top tier also makes them more easy to play, when you have a safe engage and disengage, with iframe and damage to back it up. But in the end this is all subjective. I would put mystic dead center, she is a good class with obvious flaws, but she is still one of the better classes.
     
  10. okatsu

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    I agree that the tools they have give them a heavy advantage over those without it therefore giving them an overall easier time fighting, they're simply on the right because it's very easy to perform very poorly with these classes if you don't have that skill.
    On the other hand for classes like Mystic, it's very difficult to perform poorly no matter what you do so that's why they fall into the low difficulty.
     
  11. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

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    Actually I agree with this to an extent, an average player can do well with mystic, but you need to be really good with it to perform at an excellent level. But yeah, I am not too upset about where you put mystic, just that some other classes are easier and need less gear and time investment. I actually think that witch in 1v1 is one of the hardest to perform with because her kit doesn’t give you much in 1v1. Btw having a grab is a huge advantage to any class
     
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  12. Bob2009

    Bob2009 Wizard 61 EU

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    Witch/Wizard should be moved much further to the right. I mean, it doesnt make sense for the worst 1v1 class to be the easiest to play. There just isn't any logic in that. e.g. a new player playing witch/wizard will almost always struggle and lose outright against another equally geared class. A highly skilled witch/wizard will be strained but they can pull off wins decently against some of the other classes.
     
  13. Netreiam

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    I think the reasoning is that there are two different types of skills

    Player skill and class skill

    Player skill is how good you are at the game as a whole. Positioning, predicting, tracking cooldowns, etc. they apply to all classes.

    Class skill is how good you are with the tools a class has. Aiming skills, chaining your classes protection skills, performing complicated key combos.

    Classes like wizard and mystic are on the far left because actually USING their kit is very easy and they have only a few tricks that can drastically alter their playstyle and combat effectiveness. A person can be given a capped wizard and both learn and become proficient in using their tools in a relatively short period.

    Classes like ninja and tamer are on the far right because using their kit usally requires having your combo key inputs perfect and multiple inputs to perform basic things. If a person was given a capped Tamer they would need a while to learn all the inputs and hidden mechanics down and even long after learning them they might **** up from time to time.
     
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  14. okatsu

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    Yeah the chart is considering class skill like you describe it here.
    It's very hard to consider player skill in this game, even when calculating everything at an even gear score, because of desync.
    No matter how well you predict opponents incoming moves, no matter how well you position yourself, the odds that you get grabbed anyway during your iframe, or your positioning ****s up because the person teleports the distance of their dodge after you CC'd them is just too high.

    Player skill as a concept in general is diminished so hard by the lag in this game so it's pretty hard to take that into account when making these. You can make some heavy plays on your end and not see the fruit of your labor at all.
     
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  15. Valient

    Valient Ninja 60 EU

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    gonna have to make it 3d mate, add in class potential, rather than including it within difficulty, like you mentioned before, a class performing the same for a low skill person and a high skill person is the problem with the class, where its limited by its own toolset rather than the player.
     
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  16. Xenon

    Xenon Kallitren Ninja 61 NA

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    I wouldn't use Layvan as a standard. The last time I watched him play, he was a bad ninja carried by gear. After all, he tried to say transition stance is super armor, when it's a frontal guard, and didn't even correct himself until after receiving backlash. Shaky's also a pretty trash musa who relies on gear advantage to win.
     
    #56 Xenon, Oct 26, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2018
  17. Prim nw

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    good meme but no, warrior right now is piss easy to play. The class is just weak as hell and there's not much more to it, even if u do everything perfect u will still get **** on by any avg other class.. And so just because a class is weak doesn't mean it gets more difficult to play. Imo a warr that just sits in block & gravedigging is just as usefull as a warrior that cancels everything to perfection
     
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  18. Xenon

    Xenon Kallitren Ninja 61 NA

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    No, it isn't. McHands would like a word with you.
     
  19. levinano

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    Layvan's gear is softcap or below (depends on where you draw the line for softcapping on hybrid/dp gear, as he doesn't have softcap AP gear). I wouldn't know how good he is because I don't play Ninja, but simply based on all the Ninjas I've fought, it just felt like our class is like the Ninja killer :p

    I think Shaky's really knowledgeable about the Musa class, but he chooses to play really aggressively and risks a lot. I've fought Purify before and I got destroyed, but in terms of CCs, I caught him about twice as many times as he go caught me XD
     
  20. The_Lord

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    Wiz/witch doesnt have the tools to excel in 1v1 , that doesnt mean that its hard to play. Wiz witch is still easy to play as in the apm is really low , long animation and barely no animation cancels , lots of SA etc. Its still an easy class to play they just dont have the right kit to 1v1.
     
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