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Discussion in 'PvP' started by Exposed, Aug 27, 2020.
If nobody cares about PvP anymore what happens every day an hour after reset...?
Well, i want to try out shai support... Oh wait, no dp build for shais.
Besides, any official and non official arena of arsha tournament is held by trials as its the closest thing we have for "equal fights".
I haven't read your thread, but I have to imagine if you're getting that kind of reaction then you were suggesting more than just a simple 'option' of equalized PvP and more of a widespread change.
If that's the case, then it absolutely shouldn't happen. This is an MMO with an infinite progression system that people actually enjoy, and the ability to abuse your power gains is fun, just like equalized PvP is fun, too. You can't simply say it's unfair to ever be in a disadvantageous PvP scenario and trivialize the effort required to progress in this game. Won't ever happen.
I looked at the thread, in fact, is a thread I was a part of. I could not find any one saying they are against an equalized PvP mode, while you said: "Now you should understand why, even on the forums, there are so many people against the idea of implementing equalized PvP alongside gear based PvP."
No one in that thread said they are against an equalized PvP mode alongside gear-based PvP mode (you didn't say "mode", but what else could you be talking about.....a typical soft-cap being able to fight a typical 309 AP / 346 DP well in the open world? If that's so, then that's dumb for obvious reasons.
The context of that thread is you complaining that you couldn't damage a high GS, high evasion + DR + DP Ninja (of all classes) with a trail character. Your general theme of this thread is (quote):
"I'm not saying that all the progress someone made should be nullified in PvP, however, in my opinion it shouldn't make you win by default.
A trial character is arguably better than a soft cap character, guess why? because of accuracy. Now, a soft cap character takes months to make if you're a new player, yet, you still stand no chance against an evasion monkey.
If you're fighting against a soft cap player with end game gear and you lose 5 openers you deserve to lose that fight, gear shouldn't save you."
1) It doesn't "make you win by default" - but when you take someone who's been lifting weights for 25 years and compare them to a skinny e-boy who's never actually lifted weights in his entire life, guess who will be stronger.
2) A trail character, I guess, is "arguably" better than soft-cap, but to "argue" then, I say soft-cap is "better" because of the ability to put in top-tier gems and using add-ons. You can't put gems or add-ons from a skill instructor on a trail and often, good gems + add-ons are the determining factor of strength between two equally geared players. This greatly outweighs the tiny accuracy buff trail gear has over normal TET gear, in my opinion (well not really an "opinion" because the effects of good gems and good add-ons objectively outweigh the small accuracy difference). But yes - a 4 year seasoned vet or a huge spender shouldn't be threatened by a soft-cap player who's only played for a "few months" - IMO - unless in an equalized PvP mode. And no...the open world is not a "PvP mode", if you would try to argue that. The OW is the OW. RBF is a "mode". Do I need to really explain this?
3) That's your opinion. Also, what do you consider "end-game gear"? That's so loosely termed, it could mean anything between 600 GS - 700 GS. Be more specific.
So from what I saw in that thread, is you complaining about high GS players and not being able to damage them with low level gear (insert LUL face here...hahaha jk jk).
No one, from what I saw, said "Do not add an equalized PvP mode", though I didn't read the entire post to pin-point detail, so correct me and show me if I'm wrong. What I saw from others, were people telling you how dumb your complaints were. Stuff like (quote):
"This guy has 940 evasion in only his gear + passive's + buffs which will make it over 1k+ evasion. Also he has tons of dr, like ~350 and yet you guys are wondering why you guys won't do dmg on trial character lmao.
This guy probably outgears the op by almost 150gs, so whats the point of this topic?
Heavy invested gear needs another one with heavy gear to kill him."
So yeah, you're either lying about people not wanting an equalized PvP mode, or I missed something, or you are confused on how to decipher context. Or you're just salty, IDK.
You say "high GS players don't want an equalized PvP mode because they are gear carried to win, so they don't want a bronze ranking when gear is equal and they actually suck" (paraphrased). You pointed me to your evasion thread, but nowhere in there did I find even one person saying "I don't want an equalized PvP mode", when you literally said "...on the forums, there are so many people against the idea of implementing equalized PvP alongside gear based PvP.".
(What do you even mean by "equalized PvP alongside gear based PvP" anyway? Are you talking about a game-mode? Assuming you are because that makes the most sense, but you never know with some people so I have to ask).
If I'm wrong, please show the official forums by way of quotes and context - because I'm not one to fall for BS and neither should anyone else here. If you show us, and actually prove me wrong here, I'll concede. Right now, you're coming off as just another liar trying to push whatever dumb or made-up narrative you conjured in your own mind to me, FYI. I would love to be proven wrong about that. Good luck.
actually u can put addons on them
rest i hard agree.
Thanks for sharing the thread.
At the end of the day, you have many options when it comes to AAA MMOs. If you want to play a game where you can hit the gear cap in 2 days played, there is little to no endgame progression and PvP is mostly equalized, you have games like ESO and GW2. If you want a middle-ground where there's some decent progression that doesn't take ages, gear still matters some but being undergeared isn't an automatic loss, retail WoW is there for you. And if you like a more hardcore progression style where veterans with years under their belt will chew through new players like butter you have BDO, and to a lesser extent Classic WoW.
If you don't like gear making a big difference in PvP then stop playing BDO. Or, you know, just start actually playing the game and get gear yourself. Complaining that a trial character can't damage someone near 700 GS is just ... silly. Given how hard it is to get that gear, if I had it and a trial character could even come close to hurting me I'd be outraged, lmao.
The vets in this game don't care for a healthy PvP scene. They only care about the 10 or so of them in the end circle jerking each other. True King of the Hill is when you are the only one left playing PvP in a game.
That's me who don't care about their being PvP or not in BDO.
Even if the excuse isn't pay to win people will always find something else to complain about.
Don't want a pay to win experience and want pvp where all of the gear is purely farmed from dungeons? Play WoW. Oh WoW pvp is unbalanced because of corruptions and RNG on drops? Damn time to find a game where you equalize stats in pvp and can play any class you want for pvp early. Oh yeah GW2 exists. But GW2 has class balance issues in pvp. And it goes on and on and on with every game.
Honestly if you spend your entire life just wishing for a perfectly balanced game you're gonna be extremely unhappy for a long long time. There will always be balance issues no matter what game you play and pay to win/RMT issues anywhere you go. Acceptance is important because if you don't set your expectations so high you won't be disappointed in the end. I would heavily recommend fighting games if what you truly desire is a skill based match up between two people that is fairly balanced. Don't think MMO's is the genre for you chief.
Didn't know that, thanks! Still, with gems, I think TET boss gear and TRI yellow accessories are better than trail gear.
Completely agree! Why stick a square peg into a circle, right?
Being said, I'm all for an equalized PvP mode in BDO, and I'm willing to bet that most - if not all - PvP-ers wouldn't mind one as well.
PvP is fun for many players, and I don't think having fun should be locked behind a gear wall, as well as, like, everyone else I've interacted with about it. An equalized PvP mode / modes would be awesome, IMO.
Oh, you have an opinion and anecdote? Nice!! I have an opinion and anecdote too! Woo hoo for opinions and anecdotes!!!
The pvp is just bad at this the only reason in the past more people did it because damage values were not so out of wack or rather maybe they were but you had so much more protections before the pvp rework.
I can give multiple ways to fix the pvp
Fixing the fps =DPS and how much of skills you actually see being a major one.
But slowing down the movement, reducing the total ccs in a kit when in pvp.( which includes limmitting grabs and knockdown amounts, reducing the cc locking.
All of this will make for a better combat experience bdo has really nice fluid and fast combat but in pvp that speed means nothing when so many things in the game prevent you from using the movement. Unless you play your iframes / super armors perfectly but thats the issue class balance is completely whack in this regaurd. The pvp has become who can knock who down first wins which is just straight up boring. Being able to hold people in a combo for like 3-4 seconds is just dumb the game needs to stop hindering its movement system with its cc system.
For me, I actually like the combat system: fast, fluid, intuitive, requires knowledge of your class' protections, vulnerabilities and other class' protections and vulnerabilities and how to exploit them (matchup knowledge). Fighting game feel. First cc wins doesn't sound good, but for me, that quote kinda misses out on everything else that happens before the cc = the "dance", if you will...first person who messes up usually loses in that regard, and I like that.
PvP in BDO can use some work, for sure. The fps = dps is definitely one thing. First cc wins is passable given what it takes to get that first cc to begin with, imo. RNG mechanics like resistances are kinda whack and so are Ninjas (hate fighting good, geared ninjas in ghillies...shits so broken lol), but I like the combat system, for the most part. Guess it's up to players to experience it and determine whether they like it for themselves.
Class balance is an issue, but everyone knows that FoTM's make the company money. Class balance is an ongoing effort, with classes frequently changing spots on tier lists. Just wish that amount of time in the limelight was equal on all the classes. But yeah, I'm sure your suggestions could help in improving PvP here.
Couldn't agree more. Most people that complain about PvP being dumbed down to 'first cc wins' are usually bad players that don't understand matchups and the dance involved in actually avoiding enemy ccs while landing your own. Option selecting, just like you do in fighting games, plays a huge role in the success of landing that cc. Evo moment 37 is a perfect example of how much skill is involved in countering your opponent and one comboing them.
There's always gonna be balance issues. Complaining about class balance in an MMO is just silly. As Snorlaxicus said perfectly, if you find yourself constantly complaining about balance in an MMO, you're going to be complaining forever and looking for a game that never, ever comes. Better off leaving the genre.
I will never be able to understand how abusing your power gains is "fun", whenever I win because of my gear (even build in ESO/GW2) I feel absolutely nothing, no challenge, no rewards, just boredom.
To each his own I guess.
I guess it depends on the point of view, from a competitive PvPer point of view, losing or winning because of gear feels extremely unfair, meanwhile, from the point of view of somebody that spent months/years grinding/paying to win in order to have an advantage over other players (probably because he needs it) it might feel unfair having that advantage removed.
Again, to each his own.
I clearly remember people saying that an equalized PvP mode would be pointless and that a new player just installing the game shouldn't be able to compete against veterans, well, guess what a ranked 1v1/3v3 (here, I specified it for you) mode that gives you good rewards will allow?
I mean, we're not arguing semantics here, are we? Even on the PvP thread opened by Kakao, opinions about an equalized PvP mode were mixed, in contrast, if you think the whole BDO/forum community would be fine with having those game modes, that's fine, but I think it's highly unrealistic.
Again, highly opinionable, for some people being able to compete against end game geared people in a soft cap gear (meanwhile still having a small disadvantage) wouldn't be considered dumb for obvious reasons, in fact, that's how it works in all the most player mmorpgs (WoW, ESO, GW2, FFXIV).
The context of that thread is to show how unfair, from a soft cap character point of view (which takes months of repetitive content to obtain) fighting against a full evasion build is, because, even if you control the fight there is no way you can win (gear > skills, completely).
It is also meant to show how something like this can possibly turn away thousands of new players, limiting the game growth.
Let's go by order:
1) If you only lifted weights for 25 years you're going to be physically stronger than a skinny boy, but, that doesn't mean you're going to win a potential fight by default, from someone that praticed ju-jitsu alot, I can confirm you that technique can overcome strenght.
2) Trail characters can use add-ons, however, if the soft cap character has perfect proper gems, then, hes gonna have more accuracy than the trial character, thus, making it better according to my logic.
But what I said was without perfect gems into account, since they were as expensive as a TET piece of gear.
3) End-game gear means end-game gear, how is that confusing?
I'm neither lying nor salty (why would I be salty over an mmorpg is beyond me) I'm just expressing my opinion based on the feed-back I've received.
Note that I didn't name or accuse anyone in particular, so, if you agree or want an equalized competitive mode, we want the same thing.
rejoice ! a new map is coming , Garmoth's lair, where the ENVIRONMENT can also kill you 1 shot, and there is no where to hide, its a "OPEN FIELD", Dev are to lazy to Draw new map, they just copy/paste a already existing zone in the game. and call it done.
DMG in this game is absolutely disgusting and way too high. 10% DR makes very small difference. Reason why undergeared players are not able to kill opponent is because they lack accuracy. Many players focus purely stacking AP because AP affects most PvE and is good stat in PvP so overall its best stat but for someone who focuses heavily PvP or only PvP accuracy is actually more important than AP. Obviously 200 AP with massive accuracy is no good.
Evasion builds sacrifice a lot DR and some accuracy to gain Evasion. To counter this player basically needs 250-270 AP (everything depends on class) and a lot accuracy and they will melt evasion like butter
yesterday biohack did the new 1vs1 arena on stream, he was basically unkillable to most ppl - yet a trial succ and awak mae did EASILY kill him
just like he said ^
Because it sounds like all you care about is equalized PvP. For someone that enjoys going red, and being that ganker/griefer, you aren't looking for equalized PvP. You're looking to simply wreak havoc on other players and interrupt their gameplay, which usually means you're outgearing people. Like you said, to each their own.
It honestly sounds like you shouldn't be playing MMOs tbh. If you don't value the time and energy spent in progressing a character, and all you care about is equalized PvP, why aren't you playing a MOBA or fighting game? Or FPS? If even minor build differences in ESO/GW2 trigger you and cause you to not enjoy your time, that's a serious conflict of interest with the genre. Makes no sense to me why you'd be playing an MMO in the first place.
Hmm. Well I read through your evasion thread, and didn't find anyone saying that. Maybe you can copy paste it if you find it. By saying "a new player shouldn't compete with veterans", I'm assuming that applies to open world, BA 1v1's and/or RBF. An equalized mode is entirely different than those scenarios. I've seen players often feel down or demotivated when new players are given access to gear that vets had to grind butts off for (IE: catch-up mechanics) - the reason being that they feel the work they put in is devalued because of how much easier it is to attain by new players compared to what they had to do to get the same gear. Personally, I'm fine with catch up mechanics. But I get why they feel that way - the devaluation of their time and effort. How much worse would it be if a 4 year PvP-vet with 309 AP / 346 DP was actually threatened by a 2 month player in TET / PEN Tuvala in the OW? Gear matters in BDO, bro. Good or bad is completely your own opinion. Which is why Nellz suggested you find another game, because it seems you are really against gear/progression-centric games.
I strongly believe PvP is one of the major draws to BDO - the combat system is unmatched here in any currently relevant MMO. PvP, generally, is fun for many players and BDO's combat system can attract many people by itself. In BDO, though, PvP is gated by time and effort, and many players don't want to dedicate months or years just to compete within BDO's combat system. I don't believe "fun" should be locked behind a gear wall, which is why I'm all for equalized PvP modes alongside normal geared modes. OFC, equalized would have lesser rewards - the incentive to make gains needs to be here in BDO with it's infinite progression idea. I think they gate PvP to a degree on purpose to incentivize and motivate players to meaningfully progress - which, I also get and am not against either. So equalized mode and geared mode, simultaneously, with geared giving the good rewards and equalized giving lesser rewards would work IMO. Best of all worlds.
The reason it's dumb for obvious reasons for soft-cap to compete with 650 GS is the sheer amount of time and effort needed to get to 650 GS compared to the time and effort needed to get soft-cap. Soft-cap gear is literally a drop in the bucket when comparing the silver-prices between 650 GS and 550 GS, so to have a drop beat a river in the open world is pretty dumb, in respect to how BDO functions. Again, this isn't GW2. BDO is BDO and shouldn't be molded to suit people just to "make it easier", which is what your request sounds like. Something along the liones of "it takes too long to progress and I want to be able to fight people 100 GS over me. PA, make the game easier for me by making soft-cap relevant in OW PvP so I can have fun". Sorry bro...it doesn't really work that way. Work hard, make smart decisions, and you'll be 600+ GS in no time and can fight other big bois. That's how BDO has always been.
Let's just end this by me saying this: I've been there. I've been undergeared for almost my entire BDO life, and only recently, like the past year, have I made serious strides in gearing up. It was because of being beat down by geared monkeys, being one-shot out of nowhere, being bullied out of spots and all that - I found motivation to gear up. I'm now at a competitive AP bracket and all my hard work to get here gives me a tremendous amount of satisfaction. That feeling of satisfaction wouldn't be here if it wasn't for being bullied like a chump in the first place. So to anyone QQ'ing about being beat by players 100 GS above you, don't get too dismayed - let it be motivation for you to gear up. That's my advice.
And "end-game" gear can mean anything, bro - there's no set in stone definiton. You could be talking about 600 GS or 700 GS - I'd hope you know how vastly different those two GS are. If not, then I think I know the problem now...maybe you just don't like or know much about gear-centric games. BDO is gear-centric. And they shouldn't change that just to appease a few people who can't motivate themselves past 253 AP Nouver.
EVO moment 37 is legendary, bro. Gives me the chills just thinking about it. It's similar to BDO's PvP....Daigo's "dance" of pin-point precision and timing in that parry-string...blocking all of Chun-Li's hits on her Super, then timing the jump parry into hit confirm > super was the stuff of legends!!
Kinda like how PvP in BDO is, reads and precision to avoid and land CC, attacking your opponent's vulnerabilities, then closing with an execute combo. The amount of skill and match-up knowledge needed in Ken's parry-string reminds me of BDO combat as well. Gonna go watch EVO moment 37 now haha thanks for bringing it up.
OFC, BDO's combat has it's flaws. Balance is one, but balance in MMO's is an ongoing and ever-changing effort, totally agree. If balance is a complaint, people will be complaining forever. Right now, balance is pretty good. IMO. But then again, I play Sorc, so what do I know...all I gotta do is i-frame then I win, right? xD
Yep!! What's most impressive about it is Chun-Li's super is a 2 frame attack, meaning unless you preemptively move forward to parry it before it is started, it is almost impossible to parry the first hit. Meaning without Daigo expecting the super to come and moving forward into the potential damage, he likely takes the first hit and dies. If you go back and watch closely, you can see he is expecting Justin to use the super and is constantly dancing back and forth to time the parry for when he uses the super. And then to parry all 15 attacks and finish with his own super ... just so good. Still to this day the best Esports moment of all time IMO.
There's a lot of similarity between fighting games and high-level BDO PvP where you're reading your opponent, option selecting and throwing counters. Many complain about the 'one cc - dead' concept, but don't truly understand what goes on between two good players before the first cc is landed. The length of a BDO duel is about the same length as a round in a fighting game, and there's good reason for that.