1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Is Balance more important then Fun?

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by LoanWolf, Jun 4, 2018.

  1. LoanWolf

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2015
    Messages:
    732
    Likes Received:
    677
    Honest question for you guys. Thanks.
     
    PootyTang likes this.
  2. NatashaArisha

    NatashaArisha ShinobuAraragi Witch 61 NA

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    1,735
    Likes Received:
    1,669
    Anti-fun is a poor man argument that have destroy the balance of many games.

    Balance > fun.
     
    Dalenos and Skarrlette like this.
  3. IRustyI

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2018
    Messages:
    303
    Likes Received:
    340
    What balance?

    lol

    they were juggling the **** out of balancing and guess what

    it's back to the beginning again.

    Look at mystic for instance.

    Oh, not to mention, they also made it less fun.

    So,

    No balance, No fun.

    No matter how many times I wanted to reason with these devs, I don't think they deserve a logical questions.

    Should be fuc/king spanked.
     
    YajStylez likes this.
  4. Cold Napalm

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2017
    Messages:
    297
    Likes Received:
    238
    In a PvP game, balance IS fun. If you want just PvE...than whatever.
     
    Dalenos and irrelevant like this.
  5. Kusaragii

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    Messages:
    1,497
    Likes Received:
    1,741
    I wish I could see balance and fun. BDO has very little of both
     
  6. Luminosity

    Luminosity Valkyrie 62

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,962
    Likes Received:
    1,292
    The game has becomse so boring. The options to move without relying on rng resist in large scale are almost noneexistent. Paired with the onecombo everything mechanics and it is a pure frustration to play.
    In other mmos you were not even unable to dodge cc's to begin with as they are tabtargeted. There however a support can cleanse you, burstheal you through, shield you, maybe even pull you to safety etc etc. A single cc does not sentence you to death as it does in BDO. Also in those games cc's are at least consistent in that they can not be resisted, so you can not end up just losing to bad rng and in most of them you also can not cc in those huge aoe's which would make being not cc'ed in large scale impossible. It just does not feel so awkwardly punishing and frustrating. The current cc system is just utterly retarted without the holy trinity and a general onecombo fest that heavily relies on having PA in large scale.
    It is not balanced any better than before. Now while former topscorer valks in my guild score like only 10 kills there are ninjas and rangers scoring 50-90 in the same nodewar. I have never seen such a high kill discrepancy between the few first and the next highest scorer as I see now almost every nodewar. Classes just lost their unique traits. Take my purification for example. It could heal a friendly unit that is in a cc-lock while stunning the attacker, if you came unnoticed. Now you could heal your ally with it, but at the same time the attacker just keeps raining down dmg over the time you cast this skill(as it can not cc anymore). Your ally most likely ends up with less health than before or even dead.
    Pure balance would be that peoples character are identical, if that is fun for someone, you can not help this person anymore.
     
    PootyTang likes this.
  7. Sheky

    Sheky Ranger 62

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2015
    Messages:
    583
    Likes Received:
    797
    Balance
    Fun
    BDO

    Pick two.
     
    Thelemna likes this.
  8. Solsi

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,201
    Likes Received:
    762
    I wouldn't be able to have fun personally if my class was total trash and significantly weaker than all other classes. So I'm gonna go with balance being more important.

    That "fun" argument, doesn't really work when you're having fun at the expense of much weaker classes. Not everyone gets to have fun in unbalanced games.

    Anyhow, lack of fun as well as lack of balance is 2 major reasons why people quit mmos. You need both to keep a healthy population.
     
    PootyTang and Ravare like this.
  9. Ravare

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2015
    Messages:
    1,166
    Likes Received:
    1,251
    Depends on what you feel is fun pesonaly.

    I know some people who find it fun to be the powerhouse in the game. They like feeling like they are untouchable and the feeling like they will win.

    I know others who find balance fun, because they like the challenge of trying to win when evenly matched. To them, the fun relies on the fact that they can lose and that they have to be that focused or "skilled" in order to eek out a win.

    So it really depends on the end user.

    But with MMOs, you would do best to side with balance. Because fun at the expense of balance means that one area of your game is designed to be inferior or some aspect of your game is unbalanced in order to make one other aspect of your game "fun".

    BDO devs have their issue, but players also had the issue of getting used to the fun of unbalanced gameplay. To the point where they would rather have the old system than have a balanced system.

    Different mentalities in players, but also I believe those who tend to favor their own personal fun at the expense of balance on a grand scale......those types of players are the ones you want to take their "guidance" with a grain of salt. Because they are biased mainly because they are concerned with their personal fun and not how it can effect others. And MMOs are dependent on "others" in the form of your fellow players.

    BDO has a lot of work to do. But some of the kicking and screaming over the balance changes are in fact people wanting the old un-balanced system back (#KILLFEEDBOYZ). Granted there are those also who generally feel the changes have negatively affected their class. Those latter individuals imho have a valid complaint.
     
  10. Rayin

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2016
    Messages:
    3,387
    Likes Received:
    4,533
    There will be no fun untill renown score won't go away from PvP, then they can start to work on balance.
    Balance and Renown do not fit together in the same game, especially one where gear was already the thing.
     
  11. Nyhver

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,641
    Likes Received:
    925
    Hard to say. It'd work with each other and in relation to other things like skill in a relationship that isn't as clear cut as one being better than the other.

    Too much fun is no meaning or goal, it's a constant state of ecstasy drooling from your mouth with your eyes rolling back in your head to electroshock therapy, (thanks Surrogates Bruce Willis) or some other concoction if we or nature were ever to make it, and having just the simplicity of pure ecstasy with nothing else is shallow, and if you focus too much on it you lose out on other things. This is also the bad side of the tyrant, when rats play with each other and the big rat always wins, the smaller rat who loses doesn't want to invite the other rat to play.

    Balance is really important but it being mostly balanced is more realistic, the more factors in the equation the more hazy and impossible balance is to obtain, skill level and output must be measured and how well are you going to do that as a game designer? People don't even understand this terrifically well in real life and people think things are synonymous when they aren't, efficient and skillful for instance are not the same thing while related. As a game designer doing anything with PvP whatsoever you need to know this.

    Rock paper scissors is a simple game and I like using it as an example because everyone knows it and it does have depth to its mind games and predictions, while being terribly simplistic so that basically anyone can play, there's no huge knowledge barrier or much mechanical aptitude necessary. It's so simple with clear cut decisions and balance, then you start adding stuff to it and it becomes more difficult to balance, you start adding in things like mechanical skill, not everyone is going to be the same, not everyone has the same mechanical skill even if they had the same learning rates or were at their best and put in the time to 'master it' at their peak age performance, not everyone is the same in all aspects let alone one, so how do you balance for that? How do you account for it? How do you attribute that 'weight'? Give a complex character APM spam, the character will generally do worse with people less mechanically inclined or that don't fire off quick , but will do better to those who do.

    Still, some people do want to try to broach this topic with games being as a staple objective goal only about being competitive and balanced which is the wrong way to go about it. That's admitting that people are only as good as their innate born talents and their ability to either find them or stick with it despite any passion whatsoever, it's not the passion that drives the person to master a game, a field, an activity, it is his realization that he can only exalt himself upon one of the pointless delineations of thrones, such a person is not a person worthy of much respect. Such a person is only following a road paved out for him like a puppet on a string. That's also not getting into the important aspect of 'skill' and complexity. Balance and being competitive is good and important for many games certainly, but they're not the only two important things, and they're certainly not objectively easy when complexity or skill is introduced as anyone should know. Again we return to the problem of complexity, fun, balance and other things. If it's just balance you and anyone want, go play rock paper scissors, it's perfectly balanced, the decisions you make matter. But there's a reason people and humanity created more to games than just rock paper scissors, and it wasn't simply because people wanted to obfuscate skill and crutch on gear.

    "balance" just by itself is useless like so many other rallying cries, balance can easily sacrifice everything and then we end up in a rock paper scissors state, too simple, not enough. There needs to be balance or enough balance and then other things. On the opposite end, and it's not a pure one because there's more factors than simply balance or fun and they aren't diametrically opposed, too much fun is being a uncivilized monkey.
     
    #11 Nyhver, Jun 4, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2018
  12. Dremlock

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2,613
    Likes Received:
    5,258
    What does it say about the BDO community that our most prolific philosopher is randy savage?
     
    Thelemna, PootyTang and LoanWolf like this.
  13. Flood

    Flood Musa 62 NA

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2015
    Messages:
    495
    Likes Received:
    594


    The above video directly explains why balance isn't greater than fun and why balance doesn't always equal fun. Also, it doesn't matter how hard forum users argue about whether the game is more balanced or not. The fact is that Pearl Abyss has screwed something up and it's not as fun anymore. It's not just my opinion, you don't need to tell me I'm right or wrong. The game numbers speak for themselves. Before all this Renown + mechanics changes ******** you could almost always have two RBFs fully maxed out with people. Now, you don't even see one RBF maxed out.
     
  14. irrelevant

    irrelevant Pixelstorm Tamer 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2016
    Messages:
    2,186
    Likes Received:
    5,414
    well you can never truly have a balanced mmorpg, you need chess or something but chess is boring and that's why i play mmorpgs instead chess
    .. anyway at the very least you can *try* to get within a threshhold

    for example if chess is 50/50 a mmo can be considered if its 40/60 in different clashes and encounters but sadly in bdo's case it's EXTREMELY imbalanced i'd go as far as saying you can get 20/80 scenarios or even 10/90 ones in this game

    https://clips.twitch.tv/RoundCharmingKangarooRalpherZ

    i saw this clip earlier lmao at these developers seriously i don't understand how does this crap consistently make it past testing phase? Don't they have a SINGLE PERSON WHO CAN SEE THIS AND BE LIKE "GUYS THIS WON"T WORK BECAUSE <X REASON>" wow lets leave downsmash on RANGED ATTACKS while there are classes in the game that have ZERO downsmashes (tamer btw)

    the game wasn't balanced before but it had room for the player to do stuff so it could work out, now however is an entirely different story... now balance is 4000 times worse cause they only touched a few aspects of every skill (without actually trying to make sense) and somehow that's supposed to make it balanced?

    in case anyone from pa/kakao is reading in hope of feedback:


    YOU CAN'T TAKE A SKILL AND REMOVE ITS SUPERARMOR WITHOUT ALSO ADDRESSING EVERY OTHER ASPECT OF THE SKILL SUCH AS HITBOX, ATTACK SPEED, MOVEMENT SPEED/RANGE OF THE SKILL/DAMAGE NUMBERS/NUMBER OF HITS

    i'll give you an example with my class cus it's the easiest way to give an example so use your imagination - back in the past you had this trash skill called Garuda which does really low damage and has relatively "slow" animation for melee combat but the skill had float and it also had frontal guard so it actually found a use in the game cause it was still faster cast than other fg attacks and despite being a low damage skill it had a frontal guard and did (some) damage

    now this skill doesn't have frontal guard any more but the attack speed wasn't change, or the range , or anything else, so the skill is a low damage unprotected trash float which isn't even good any more cause you only have 2 ccs so using one of your ccs on a low damage ability isn't worth it as much cus before you could use it for float to get air attacks on your followup and you could also grab afterwards but now you can't cus the combo system is butchered so long combos which required proper skill usage and consideration are no longer rewarded


    Their new system is a complete failure and a laughing stock to anyone who's actually seen the old one or has ever played a mmorpg in his life. If you want to reduce the number of SA/FG's in the game then also address the attack speed, range, hitboxes and all these other factors of every skill and adjust them and make them work with the new system

    oH AND MAKE SURE YOU TEST IT THIS TIME BEFORE RELEASING IT

    so maybe in six months we'll have something that isn't pre-alpha stage and works ..cus as it is right now the pvp is a joke compared to before, i can't say that enough cus that's what it is

    ... or you could just revert to the working stable system that we had before and only nerf the overpowered skills and fix the broken/bugged ones.. how about that.. would literally take a week of listening feedback to get a working game again instead of reworking everything and failing horribly


    anyway perfect balance is impossible but bdo isn't even trying, and the new system is complete trash cus you're super limited and can't do anything. One of the main reasons why divinity original sin 1,2 are so good (other than their developers are actually listening to people that's why they get overwhelming support and love and all of it is deserved) is because you have so many options. You can play the game and do 140 different things in every encounter and sure maybe mage is more imbalanced than fighter but you can do so many things in that game that even if its imbalanced you'll find something that works and win like that. In divinity you can teleport any enemies or even objects as small as gold coins so you dont have to run to pick them up, can teleport crates on top of people. Can break gates if you can't unlock them, can carry any items with you, can use any weapons and ofcourse it's a single player game so it's an entirely different thing but the point im making: you don't see ppl raging about imbalance as much when they have more options and when they have something they can do about it

    to me trying everything i can do is my first resort and raging is my last one but in this game the things you can do have been only reduced since striker came out and since then the game has been downhill (except absolute/rabam skills which are good, but ranger ones need nerfs since they also had animation rework and it got too overtuned)
    oh and in case you dont understand why absolute/rabam were good while the rest was not - CUS THEY GIVE YOU MORE OPTIONS AND MORE THINGS ____YOU CAN DO_____ which is what my post was about
     
  15. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Witch 62 NA

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2017
    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    515
    You need some semblance of balance to have longterm fun. We all like performing well. If one class outperforms and another underperforms, one of us gains more fun than the other.

    Balancing the game does not have to reduce how fun it is. And we don't need perfect balance. Classes should be unique. Some should be better at specific things. But we should have classes that are all viable at everything, even if some are worse than others at specific things. And no class should be best or even above average at everything.

    We all play the game for fun. But I don't think balance and fun are mutually exclusive. In fact, I think balance is needed for fun in a PvP game. For PvE, the OP is likely right. Fun is more important than balance. But for PvP, I think balance is critical.
     
    Mesuka and irrelevant like this.
  16. Zephyrsong

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2016
    Messages:
    468
    Likes Received:
    232

    Mystic huh, you mean its not fun anymore when you're not perma SA/FG while CCing 5 people and killing in one combo while everyone else cant outdamage the heal on hits/skill use.....

    on topic-fun is subjective and I've rarely seen an MMO balance all the classes correctly(Guild wars 1 did it almost perfectly up until energy patch) but dunno I guess it depends on whether or not you like being "Gifted" fun through lack of balance ie. class reroll/fotm abuse or prefer doing what you like regardless of anyone or anything else while further improving yourself.
     
    #16 Zephyrsong, Jun 5, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2018
  17. Iroha

    Iroha Oregairu Musa 61 EU

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    260
    The reason games like DOTA and League of Legends are so popular is because most heroes/champions are absolutely overpowered in their own little way. When everyone is overpowered, things are harder to balance, for sure, but it makes the game much more dynamic and thrilling to play. But because everyone is overpowered, things are still balanced and fair in a sense. Personally I feel Valve and Riot do a decent-ish job with their balance and you can tell that their developers actually play their own game.

    The problem with BDO is their developers (PA) have no absolute ****ing clue (as evident with how disgustingly overpowered Mystic was on release). When you combine PA's incompetence with the overpowered nature of every class, then you get a situation which PA described as "unsustainable".

    In reality, what they mean is they do not want to put the effort in to balance their game and would prefer to dumb it down because it makes their jobs easier down the line.

    The result of their decision is a game that is less skill-based (RNG resistances) and more gear-based (renown + AP scalings). The game is less thrilling and not as fun from the point of view of people near the skill ceiling.

    Even with all this said and done, balance isn't achieved auto-magically. Personally I feel PA are still too incompetent to even balance this dumbed down version of their game.
     
    Mesuka and Flood like this.
  18. Nyhver

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2016
    Messages:
    1,641
    Likes Received:
    925
    Main reason dota2/LoL are popular is because they're great F2P games, (P2W isn't as strong/nearly non existent) with friends and whatnot, and of course they do have characters or whatnot people enjoy playing or knowing more of, interacting with.

    Also because people don't know what skill is. The idea that League/dota 2 is some stellar competitive game is an illusion. People including some on these forums like to talk up competitive games like LoL/dota2 but these games have big balance issues and skill issues. With the format of being locked in another game with randoms and fighting randoms the elo mmr system is play as many game as possible to give a better representation of where you actually belong on the ladder due to a plethora of random factors, so skill matters less. Then there's FOTM-cycling which Riot did, or still does. Then there's the fact that it's a heavy team emphasis game, individual skill matters less, even the high tier players and professionals like queuing with one another to increase their influence in the game and make it less bothersome.

    League's population loves to speak about how great and competitive the game is but too many of them hate champions which are skillful like Zed, Lee Sin, and too many champions are simplistic, like Garen, where most of the games skill in general comes from other sources not mechanical skill, but the general skill level and ceiling should be increased, not decreased, the community and game designers are to blame for it, just like this one.
     
  19. TRPX

    Joined:
    May 24, 2017
    Messages:
    112
    Likes Received:
    133

    nah.. but u wanna know whats fun? being a berserker with this:
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Iroha

    Iroha Oregairu Musa 61 EU

    Joined:
    May 5, 2016
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    260
    Your points are true enough (especially about League being dumbed down), but I never even considered solo-queue as the competitive/fun part of the game. I've always played with a 5-man premade.
     

Share This Page