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Karma Bombing Is becoming a serious issue

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by yungluke222, Aug 11, 2020.

  1. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    Not acting like any true white knights here, I am fully aware both sides of this spectrum have their own problematic players, but it is true that you can deal with them without too much issues. Also the reason why I haven't replied to you was because I simply didn't bother reading it (afterall if wasn't adessed to me), not because I didn't know how. But if my extra comment will clear some things up I don't mind answering now. Not really ''straw-maning'' anything here. There is plenty of PKers who know just fine how to deal with karmabombers, and yet there is also a big portion of them who just come on forums complaining about a system that works if you put just a bit of brain to use. I am not annoyed by people who PK, I am annoyed by those who PK without a single good reason to do so other then just make the person leave, and are then surprised why this happens to them.
    Alright with that aside I'll read the rest now. I will underline your parts of the comment so It's more clear to go through.

    2) Another player enters the rotation you're grinding and starts killing the mobs in it.
    - This is the issue number 1. What kind of a rotation do you have that other players even manage to get and kill your mobs? No wonder people come and try to take it. It isn't really your rotation if you can't take of all the mobs at the right time. Tigther it so mobs aren't standing (Nobody will take a thing then, because there won't be a thing to take.) Naturally most players will go in and try to take some kills, since there are mobs there just waiting to get killed for some time. They have a right to that rotation as much as you do. Being there first doesn't make it your rota, having dueld for it doesn't make it yours, having better gear doesn't make it yours, and having killed people on it that come doesn't make it yours either. In no world is that rotation, or any rotation, or any mobs for that matter, yours. Everyone bought the same game. By doing that they have all rights to this product, to do with it what they wish as long as it's not against the rules. And the reason why they are taking it is because they see it can be profitable for them and they can. Since mobs are standing around not being busy.

    3) You have a Loot Scroll and PvE buffs running and all you want to do is use up your Agris Fever then go about your day.
    - This is one thing I agree is an issue. Many people said that buffs should be something you can toggle and I agree with that. So far the only option when someone comes to your spot is to change character so you don't waste yout buffs and that is quite dumb to do and annoying. Most people actually PK others right away because they either aren't bothered to ask for a duel since it takes time and their scrolls are running, so they kill right away. Putting a toggle option on this would reduce ammount of these players who don't even ask or talk on the spot, but kill you right away.

    4) You kindly ask the person to wait or leave. IE: "Hey, I'm grinding this roto. Got 20 mins left on my LS. Mind waiting a bit? I'll be leaving right after and it's all yours. 5) They ignore you. You try asking nicely again and they obviously see you there. But they ignore you - like you don't even exist.
    - You just sugarcoated ''spot taken'', and this is what most people see as well. Which is probably why they start bothering you even if it isn't efficient for them. Saying it in a nicer and longer way doesn't change meaning of that sentence. I actually tested this myself too on a few players, and it always led to ''why should I leave? You don't own this.'' And well they are right. But they do always leave after max of 10 minutes, when they see they jut can't take your packs if you clean them properly.
    And players who ignored me, are actually the first ones to leave after trying to aggresively try to get in front of you. Wait it out and they leave fast.

    6) Feeling totally disrespected by this blatant form of bullying and toxic behavior ruining your game experience, you understandably get frustrated.
    - Well you also ruined their gaming experience when you told them to leave, even thought they decided to be here since it's a game they bought and they just felt like grinding here. Why would a stranger tell them to not do it and change plans they had for those few hours? I believe you are now the one who only sees one side of the problem. Both sides are ruining eachother's gaming experience. I have never in my life got frustrated because a player ignored me. Just keep doing your stuff.
    Furthermore, if they purposefully ignore you, they are basically just waiting for your reaction. If you kill them, then they will just realise that you are easy to deal with, and they will most likely stay on the spot. If you just ignored them however, and tightered your rota, they would most likely leave in around 5 minutes.

    7) You PK them. (What else do you do here? Swap channels? What if that roto is already occupied on another channel? Do most players bend over backwards when this happens? I assume most players do not take kindly to disrespect, as evidenced by comments in this thread. IE: "I like being able to Karma-Bomb because it's the only way I can "defend" my spot". Why are you guys such hypocrites?)
    - What else is to do? Well I worte it above. If you ignore them and continue with your stuff, person will see they get no reaction from you (since you keep comparing karmabombing to bullying, I think this is the perfect example. If you know how to deal with ''this bullying'', the bully will get bored and leave.) Not like they have to leave though. If you grind properly there should be no mobs left alive, so the bully can just stand around and look at you without taking a single mob but really hard trying at it. That's always interesting to watch when it happens. I even get asked often ''why don't you flag : ( ?''
    - Also what respect? Why should I respect you because you got to this rotation before me? This isn't a line in a supermarket and nor is it real life. I had people literally spawning in front of me with their maid showing up, saying that they were here all the time and that I should ''kindly leave'' because they can kill me. Of course. They leave after 5 minutes after they are done with their speech. Should I respect you because you won a duel since you got a lot higher gear score which most players buy with irl money anyway? No. I will not respect you grinding ''your'' rotation. I also want to have fun on it, I also want to spend my free time there. If I am unable to grind then I will leave. But honestly, people have no idea how to make smaller rotations since a lot of them watch guides on YT, and think half of hystria is theirs.
    And for some classes, karmabombing IS the only way to defend your spot. Blame it on the game being unbalanced, not the player.

    8) The other person comes back immediately and continues to ignore you and continues hitting the mobs.
    - Why are there still mobs alive that they can hit? Honestly...

    9) You still kindly ask them to leave you alone. IE: "Dude, please, I'm almost done here. Can you please not be toxic?"
    - Depends what you define as toxic, and that differs from person to person. I don't see anything toxic when a player comes to ''my rotation'' and starts taking mobs that are alive. I blame myself, I should have grinded them better. I didn't and now they saw a chance. I do see it as quite annoying when a person who is unable to grind properly tells me that it's ''their spot'' yet 80% of mobs are alive.

    11) You've already lost a lot of time to someone who is BLATANTLY disrespectful of you, your time and your game experience. You PK them because you're UNDERSTANDABLY frustrated.
    - Well there you go. You PK them because you got angry. If that's not an emotional reason, then I don't know what it is. I'm happy that there are players who are able to PK just because they see it as fun, and not as something they have to do (since well, you don't have to do it to remove the person). Again, it's a virtual pixel world, nobody needs to respect you or anyone, and they themselves don't need to be respected.
    - People have different ways of having fun in a game. Their ways of fun colliding with yours doesn't make them toxic. Learn how to deal with it and it won't be such an issue anymore. Adapt that people have different ways of playing this game. You are tunnel-visioned thinking that only your way of playing is the proper one worthy of respect. You are basically telling people ''don't have fun go away, i'm the one who wants to have fun now.''
    No wonder people stay on spot longer just to bother you.

    12) They keep coming back. They remove their gear, which you can tell because they die, 100-0, in one ability. You are now Red and face penalties for being red, all because of another player using available in-game tools to harass you and ruin your game experience. You have just been Karma-Bombed by a Karma-Bomber (the act of purposefully being an annoyance to another player, with the intentions of coercing that player into PK-ing you).
    - Nope. You are red facing penalties because you yourself got frustrated, without simply doing something else to make player go away. Also...
    If they remove all their gear just feed them to mobs? They will shred through them like paper anyway. Why even waste karma here? Speaking of ''ingame tools to harass players'', I have also been harassed by a lot bigger geared players who used the ingame tools called cashshop to get to full PEN c10 and oneshot me. But nobody is changing that mechanic are they.
    - And lastly, nobody is forcing you to flag up, players aren't espers or psychic. Deal with that differently. I have been playing for almost 4 years, I had countless of encounters of this example you mentioned, and not once did I feel forced to flag or had to flag to make the player leave. And I managed to keep every single spot. The problem is you, because you are bothered by a player trying to compete by grinding, while you think only competition here should be flagging up.

    BDO currently has no tangible way to deal with this..
    - BDO has plenty of ways to deal with it... you just don't want to take the 5 minutes of your time to actually think about what to do and simply do it. It's even easier if a player just ignores you and you ignore them. You should feel lucky if you find someone who says ''ok I will leave'', but 90% of players won't say it. Because 90% of players don't see that spot as yours, especially if they can just come in and take living mobs.

    There is no allowed way to defend yourself against this blatant act of toxicity and disrespect towards you. In IRL, we have self-defense laws.
    -...well this isn't real life. Stop using game as a substitute for real life. This mechanic isn't an exploit and it isn't cheating of any sort. If you like using real life as an example then I will you one example. It's as if you take a bus and you have 2 chairs next to one another. You take one chair, and another person takes another one. And you get frustrated over this. Even though you both paid the seats, and even though that seat was empty for them to take.

    Not surprised. People usually only see things that benefit themselves and themselves only, and don't care about anyone else but themselves.
    - Sorry, but there is just so much ways for you to keep a spot when a karmabomber appears. And I'm tired of repeating myself.
    If your only way is to flag on them over and over, that's on you. And that is why karma system exists. It's almost as if the karma system is telling you ''hey ok you should stop now and think of something else how to deal with this.'' But people refuse to see this, and just come on forums asking for karma to be removed rather then just tweaked a bit.
    Even if those people are the first players who would leave the game out of sheer frustration in the case scenario where karma is removed. They will get walked over by players who will actually play the game for fun, their fun being killing you with their overly big AP, no matter where you are, and no matter what you do.

    That's my opinion on the matter.
     
    #141 onaco, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  2. Diepel

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    I feel like pretty fragile egos have problems with karma bombing. Never encountered it, because I have self-control.
     
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  3. Smileybones

    Smileybones Ranger 62 NA

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    That would be like considering stopping your car when the light is red optionnal because God didn't include this rule in the 10 Commandments.

    In other words, only sociopaths get to ignore the popular rules of the social group they belong to. BDO players do belong to a social group defined by the feature of openworld PVP, no need to cry about it and make excuses for socially deviant behavior.
     
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  4. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    One other thing I find pretty silly, is that people keep applying real life rules to a videogame. Usually rules that have something to do with respect, conviently all the rules that they would want to apply here so gaming experience gets better for them.

    What is wrong with you people constantly wanting to use real life rules here?
    If we go by that, then stop murdering me in a videogame, since it is against rules to do so in real life as well.
    But no. The only real life rules you want to apply in a game are the ones you yourself see fit, so you can craft your little small reality based on real life rules, inside of a freaking videogame. Forcing others to bend by your rules as well, which you picked. Get out of here, stop ruining fun for others.

    Also this ''In other words, only sociopaths get to ignore the popular rules of the social group they belong to. BDO players do belong to a social group defined by the feature of openworld PVP''.... is probably one of the most desperate attempts at defending this.
    So I play a game and I need to bend to some unwritten/made-up rules veteran players follow since the start. God forbid I follow the actual rules and system the game has. If it collides with the ''rules'' of the veterans I'm a sociopath lmao. Because I play the game the way I like to play it? A videogame which has nothing to do with real life? Amazing.

    Stop being a follower and learn how to enjoy the game your way.
    There are rules and systems in BDO, they are written rules people can't avoid unless it is an exploit.
    As long as it is within these written rules by the people who actually made BDO, not a single person will tell me how I should play the game I bought with my own money. So feel free to call us sociopaths :)
     
    #144 onaco, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  5. Zeljeznaa

    Zeljeznaa Mystic 61 EU

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    Popular social rules you say.. hmm... by the majority?
    [​IMG]
    wait, wait the key word is popular. so, when did this game become popular again? what were the circumstances of that time?
    majority + popular. hmmmm...
    social deviancy + trashtalk and refusal to communicate? hmmm
    its weird how I never lag in Heidel on arsha. It's probably a graphical perfromance speak caused by a lack of the karma system.
     
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  6. IWalkAlone

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    But Pking is play by the rules of the game, so no one should complain if get PKed.Its a game mechanic allowed by the devs.Duel for spot, PvP for spot, PK for spot, random PK.This is all by the rules of the game and playing the game is no wrong.Yet there are some exploits.Both karmabombing and alt with shity crystals are exploits.There are other exploits too.Even devs said that karmabombing is issue that needs to be fixed.
    What is clear that karma system needs rework.But sadly there will be still people who complain about the way the game is because of simple selfishness.
     
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  7. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    People aren't complaining about you PKing them. From what I saw on these forums, people who PK mostly get frustrated because they get ignored. Ones who complain here at least, are people who PK others.
    Duel for spot, and PvP for spot aren't written by rules of the game. Those 2 are rules made up by players. I follow these rules as well, but I don't look down on someone who decides not to follow them. They are purely here just so players who have similar mindsets can solve things without competing. I never minded random PK on the other hand.
    And sorry but karmabombing isn't an exploit. It is an issue seen by smaller part of the community, that's why Devs adressed it, but it is by no means an exploit. They adressed it because a smaller portion of the playerbase sees it as an issue, but since this minority is mostly consisted of players who probably pay a lot due to being competitive in PvP, they decided to mention it.
    However Devs won't fix it most likely. Simply because there is so much ways around it, and to not get karmabombed at all. Step one is usually that you don't press alt+c.
    It is just that most of players completely ignore that flagging up isn't the only way to compete. Next time try competing with grinding faster then them. Poof problem solved.

    Karma system needs a bit of tweaking, but not a full rework. But people who keep saying that all of karma system should be completely gone should just learn how to deal with players approaching them, or they should just go play some other game, if they get frustrated so much by a player in a game which is a multiplayer game.
     
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  8. Smileybones

    Smileybones Ranger 62 NA

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    Apparently Subtle isn't your second name. If you ever stepped foot into a grind spot actually used by a lot of players (which falls under the definition of popular) and did so a significant amount of time, you would be aware about the kind of popularity I'm talking about and which rules are commonly used by said spots users (which also falls under the definition of popular).

    Additionally, the servers you point out feature additional incentives which adds to the equation about why people use them, thus stating that PVE only servers are crowded by their own PVE only nature isn't taking all parameters into account this not a very serious point of view.
     
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  9. BlueSatin

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    4) Player A sends party invite to Player B, then the two of them can take a bigger rotation because they are helping each other. (That's the concept of an MMO likes every other game and that strangely here it occurs very few times)
     
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  10. Zeljeznaa

    Zeljeznaa Mystic 61 EU

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    and again, you're not getting the point. Im saying that you're calling people socially deviant because you have no way of competing other than hoping that the other party leaves. So basically just "you're worng Im right." I dont see how karmabombing can happen in either Hystria or Stars end due to the massive damage that mobs can do. Even the pot pieces can be easily managed. I find your attempts to defend your inability to react pointless. Im not here to argue with you. But,
    competitive means to compete. not to kindly walk up to some one, put on your niceguy hat and ask please "dont compete"
    It's as if you're giving a big signal that says: "I cant kill them, I dont know my cancels, my mana managment is bad, I dont know mob placement, I dont know respawn timers, I dont know how to cc a player and grind around him with minimal karma loss, I dont have friends who can help me, I cant counter-rotate, I cant switch channel, I cant ask for duel, I cant feed them to mobs once they strip gear because I dont know my lowest DPS cc skill, I cant take off my gear as well and force them to equal pvp, etc and etc." literally asking for handholding for babies.

    you could just leave your DP gear on and **** them all day with cc. you dont NEED to lose karma. at all.

    ever.

    EDIT: also, nobody spends months there just for a what 14 ap capotia ring there? Not just newbies there. Vet's too. doubt anyone who spent 4 years in the game is on the edge of their seat for that sweeet, sweet 8 accuracy. Think. 4 crowded servers.
    The biggest social benefit, at least for me, was to see players running around again. towns populated. roads populated. I got the feeling it's not a SingleplayerMMO because everybody does their best to avoid eachother.
     
    #150 Zeljeznaa, Aug 13, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2020
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  11. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    Usually 5-10 minutes is enough for them to leave, after they realise you aren't here to kill them, and after they realise there is nothing they can do to actually make you flag and loose your karma for them to take your rota. Show them they can do nothing to make you leave, and they are the ones who will be leaving instead. Not getting any reactions as you try to bully a player is quite boring anyway.
    ...Unless they are espers or something and can control and manipulate your mind through an MMO in which case I would be quite impressed.
     
    #151 onaco, Aug 13, 2020
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  12. woots

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    popular rules =/= rules you have to follow to make a whole work.
    You dont need to follow, or agree with pk rules to have BDO as a game correctly work, even just work ( hello seasonal & Olivia ), nor even needed to deal with grind spot "conflicts".

    that not saying, pker arent a social group other belong to, pker just are a "group" that belong to the "BDO social group"

    Its cute, but it doesnt work,
    that not speaking about that very cheap attempt to imply thoses not following that necessary have a mental trouble, that's just so bad, even if its a classic among BDO user, not surprised its coming from someone like you.
     
    #152 woots, Aug 13, 2020
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  13. Smileybones

    Smileybones Ranger 62 NA

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    BDO works so well on PVE servers than people cry about them in dedicated topics exactly because of the lack of regulating rules but ok, please produce more excuses for your deviant behavior.

    Additionally, why do you even think some rules are popular if not because they actually work. Your lack of ability to understand such basic concepts just illustrates my earlier point about massive lack of basic social skills.
     
  14. woots

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    wrong, cheap attempt ( how surprise ) the only complain about seasonal is the too low amount of channel for all players it attracted. And not because there is whatever lack of regulation

    You can also forget your usual bait / insult to try to have me agree with you to not be part of that 'bad group". Just a cheap tactic well demonstrating your poor attempt to force your opinion.
    will never work.
     
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  15. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    You mean ''people who usually PK others to randomly get the spot like they do on normal servers'' complain about season servers being overpopulated?
    How surprising really. Why are you even on a pve server then? Oh wait, you wanted to get some extra stuff from the events.
    I spent majority of this season on a season server, and people who complain about PvE server being without a flag just get trampled all over the place. Both in chat and in the game.
    They put an arsha season server though....
    And it was so empty I managed to grind on every spot completely uninterupted :)
    Get over it. Players who enjoy actually hanging out in parties don't complain about anything being overpopulated.
    What PvE players complain about the most is the complete lack of group content, and the fact that being in a party literally punishes you.

    There was too little season servers, that's all. Too many players enjoyed where you can just play the game without someone jumping on you and oneshotting you. It is not surprising.
     
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  16. Smileybones

    Smileybones Ranger 62 NA

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    Must have nothing to do with the fact they added the PVP channel long after everyone got lost interest in seasonal channels because they already got rewards.
     
  17. IWalkAlone

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    Yet they complain about an issue/exploit in the game.Because people decide continuously to suicide with purpose to lower the karma of the other player.Thats an issue like you say.
    Yes They are.Maybe not to call them rules but they are a way to play the game.It was stated by the devs themselves.PvP is a intended way to conquest limited spots.If someone dont like this way of playing is its their fault, not the PvPer or PKr, not the game fault, only their.
    Exploit, issue no matter what we call it, its a problem.Glad we agree on that.And if it was a problem for small portion of the player base, devs woudn mention it.
    This is kinda personal.To me its not a problem too.But that because I dont afraid to go negative.
    Some people forget that not all classes can outgrind others.But yeaa on my alt ranger I can outgrind anyone so far.When I do I get PKed, and I can karmabomb til they are gone.Exploit..or issue whatever call it.It shoudnt exist.Both endless karmabombing and endless PKing should not exist in BDO.
    Totaly agree, adapt the game or leave.
     
  18. Aiwen

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    Again this my spot stuff. I dont know what you are killing but spawn rates are very fast now adays. Just noticed at shrooms that could almost stand still and one shot mobs front of me and the ones at my back have already spawned. So you need the whole forest o_O
     
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  19. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    Look I don't know how to explain this to you. Players can commit suicide to other mobs, but not to you. You aren't flagged by default in the game, you press a button. This isn't an issue in the game mechanic. You press the button, you take penalties. Don't press the button, let the karmabomber die by mobs. It's not that difficult.

    You can use PvP to contest for spots, but it isn't necessary at all. As I said, it's so people with similar mindset can deal with eachother. Where do you categorize me then hm? I like both dueling for spot, pvping for a spot, and outgrinding them. All of those are ways to compete with a player, and to either win and lose.

    Well it is an issue with the players, not with the system. You decide to run into a wall rather then climb over it. This doesn't need fixing. However it is a small portion of the playerbase. Because even if quite a few people karmabomb, most of players who ''PvP for spot'' can deal with karmabombers just fine without it being an issue for them. Just like I can and just like most people can. That's why even people who follow these player made rules of dueling for resources, tell you to just deal with it in a way that will make them leave. And no, that way isn't alt+c.

    If you can't outgrind someone then tighter your rotation. Every class can grind, it is just some can grind smaller and some bigger rotations, but all have mobs in them. Again, nobody will take your rotation if mobs spam in front of you, just time it well and they will move to other part of some other rotation.

    Unlike endless PK, which you cannot stop since a player can always go red and continue doing it... You can stop karmabombing from happening. Juts don't flag. If you do flag, be aware of the consequences. When you go white, start thinking about a way to outgrind them.

    Karma needs some slight fixing, not a removal as a lot of people here keep mentioning.
     
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  20. onaco

    onaco Musa 62 EU

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    Yeah, except even if they did add the arsha seasonal server before, it would still be 90% empty. Because people who PvP don't like loosing in most cases, and they would only enter arsha server when they have full PEN tuvala gear. Until then they would play on normal pve servers. Most of players at least.
    They have equal gear now, and season arsha is empty. Most players are used to outgearing others to make their victories afterall. Why be equal on a season arsha, when you can oneshot a person with a creditcard on a regular server?
    If you played season server only for rewards, then no wonder you are complaining about it being overcrowded. I know more then enough players who play season servers because they have a full list of other reasons why they enjoy it.
     
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