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Mystic is brokenly overpowered

Discussion in 'Mystic' started by DarkKnightMasterRace, Jan 17, 2018.

  1. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    The suspense is killing me
     
  2. Netreiam

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    done
     
  3. raikourin

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    Fixed that for you.

    If you wanted to complain that Mystic's Spiral had more forward range than Slashing then go ahead (nothing will change about it). But to pretend as if they don't function as the exact same skill with the exact same means of avoidance speaks more on your inability to avoid the skill than any actual imbalance. I'm perfectly comfortable with S blocking out of any Spiral Torpedo that comes my way or even grabbing them out of the air the same way Warrior can be grabbed out of the air. You could git gud and do the same but instead you're here complaining to posts from 13 days ago and being wrong while doing so.

    Maybe processing is much easier for you to handle since dynamic PvP is clearly too much for you.
     
  4. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    It seems like u guys wI'll argue about this all day so I'll try to mediate.
    What @Netreiam is talking about is the range and the speed at which these skills break fg. Petal drill on maehwa does it through hit box. Slashing the dead on warrior does it by going above the person. Maehwa doesn't work that way if the mae is too close(because collision) and warrior doesn't work past a certain range, it's slow and has a pre existing animation( the jumping bit).
    Now take mystic on the other hand, it's fast, nearly no real animation, low cd, a pretty large range where it goes through the block and legit just hits your block and goes through. The only skill similar to it, is violation from sorc, and that's a skill with a short range.
    Also please go test that s block thing once more properly and lemme know if it actually works. Cus if it does, that's interesting, since most classes can't do the s block while moving thing.
     
    #384 Kayray, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  5. raikourin

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    No need for mediation. I'm only arguing that Mystic did not invent no collision as people want to believe.

    And Warrior isn't going above a person, he's going through them. You're giving the hit/hurt box system way more credit than it deserves if you think Warrior is literally jumping over someone rather than a travelling hit box moving forward with the "appearance" of a jump. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to hit the Warrior if his actual elevation changed which isn't the case.

    Strip away all animations from any class with a travelling no collision skill and have them move a set distance based on the skill's forward range then place a person holding block inside of that range. Now you have the no collision mechanics in a nutshell. Is Mystic's Spiral forward range somewhat larger than most? Sure. Is that what people are complaining about? No because they refuse to understand basic principles and just complain just to complain.
     
    #385 raikourin, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
    Pkmdz likes this.
  6. raikourin

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    Characters that only have S blocking as a option live and die by positioning. Being able to angle your S block in a way to prevent attacks from clipping you from behind is key to staying out of someone's cc chain. Active blocking classes tend to get over reliant on just holding block and end up getting caught by faster classes/travelling cc's then complaining about the class or skill when it was their fault for being stationary in a real time battle.

    Spiral is just another skill with a set range that can be S blocked and even countered with a grab if you know what you are doing. Something that complainers can't comprehend because they're too busy mistaking "impossible" for their skill level as "impossible" for everyone.
     
  7. Srich

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    A mistic can be killed with an easy grab engage and ,once she use torpedo and sea burial, its free grab useless she iframe your grab which is not that easly. IF u fail u just dash out until u recover the grab CD or if u get slowed u still outspeed us if u know how to spam your dashes as valk. For the warrior its the same **** all over grab engage and one combo her your only problem is to understand when grab engage safely once u master that any mistic can easly die. If u keep trying to fight mistic as any other class in game u will fail because to be honest mistic is the only real new class that is on S tier just like valk/war/berseker/ on 1 v 1 but the difference is 99% of the people just cry and dont wanna learn how to play vs mistic.
    P.S. both torpedo and sea burial can be grabbed out thats how i kill 99% of the mistic who just faceroll the 1% left require more effort but eventualy a bugged SA chain or a bugged mistic dash will cc them and let them die.. this happens often to me too to be cced while in sa or while iframing thats the game u know.
     
    Jessy Jess and Pkmdz like this.
  8. Srich

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    Mistic HEALING died with the nerf on spiral.. trying to heal ourself on 1 v 1 while fighting is very very very risky and no worth the effort/risk... the only skill that can heal us procs on HITS and its a free grab for any grab class with some brain and ofc if u sit on you block u will eventualy always die vs any braindead mistik
     
  9. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Please check. Maybe gif so us plebs can see.
     
  10. Netreiam

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    Yeah, and once a valk uses Sanctis (jump) or hasti (gap closer) its also a free grab, your point?
    I was talking about high skill or at least not-braindead gameplay. I already told you all the drawbacks of valk grab. So if a mystic 1. isn't able to land their grab and 2. isn't able to dodge a valk grab. Then they got outplayed hard, real hard.

    You think I framing grabs on mystic is hard? Try I framing grabs with 0.2s and 0.4s long I frames that require you to be in neutral stance and tell me how hard that is.

    Also, trying to grab engage and then running while on CD can also be done by mystic. and since as I said, mystic has the superior grab they still have an edge.

    As for warrior, as I said, I don't believe they have the burst to kill mystic. If you have proof of otherwise then show it.

    Funny, because I hear most mystics say that it didn't really hurt they're healing capability. Maybe try not using unprotected skill while in range?

    Again, already told you why it isn't tactical to do anything but sit in block/throw out our two FG's every 8s (that will do no damage) and keep looking for an opening for grab while staying close and evading. Since its a grab fight mystic has the upper hand. Period.



    What I'm saying is that the match is not favorable for either Valk or War. And that is at high AP where a kill is pretty much guaranteed after a (RNG good) grab for valk. At lower AP where neither player has 1 combo potential. Mystic's advantage gets even higher because their healing outpaces valks and their combos + grab are easier to land.
     
    #390 Netreiam, Apr 2, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2018
  11. Srich

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    warrior with 260 AP has the burst to grab and 2 skill a mistic that doesnt run dp build.. mistic cant really run from a valk if u have issue in chasing a mistic then i can link you some video that explain how you can dash so maybe you can learn something and i really think that your problem is on lack of mobility... so a git gud issue bro
     
  12. Netreiam

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    Still not sure about that war burst but allowing for doubt that would make the match 50/50 at best at ridiculous AP and still give mystic the advantage at lower AP. “Easily” as you were saying earlier implies that war would have the advantage.

    Also, did I say anything about valk lacking mobility/mystic outrunning valk? No, I said you could easily avoid a grab by running. If you don’t know how to avoid a grab from the class with the shortest range by, I don’t know, maybe not moving in 1 direction and using I frame when they get in range then you need even more help than a valk that can’t dash cancel (I can keep up with maehwas when my FPS is good, thanks for your concern though)

    Also extended dashing leaves valk vulnerable because the Resistance buff wears off quickly and none of our movement skills have consistent protection. So if you do get a valk to chase you in 1 direction, by the time they are about to catch up you can turn around and spiral for an easy KD or at the very least an easy juke.





    I really like how you don’t address some of my other points, such as an inferior grab, inferior trading, inferior sustain, and inferior I frames, but try to suggest an strategy based one advantage (superior distance mobility) that is both impractical and easily countered when all I was saying was that the fight favors mystic.

    I am well aware that valk burst on a good grab at 260 AP will melt a similarly geared mystic. However claiming the fight is easy or even 50/50 when mystic can 1 combo from grab as well at that AP and has all the advantages I spoke of isn’t accurate at all.
     
  13. raikourin

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    At some point maybe. Away from computer for a period of time.
     
  14. thdsm

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    You do know that when mystic grab fails, you get an unprotected backward jump, which will get you cc'd most of the time against anyone competent. This alone makes it terrible for engaging, certainly worse than valk grab.

    Some people did indeed say that when the change was announced in kr patch but didn't yet arrive to the western version, because their brain capacity wasn't enough to predict the impact the change would have. Truth is, the change is really big because you have to choose between disengaging and healing a little and pressuring the opponent. In an actual fight your healing is reduced to potting and one skill that heals a small amount on connected hits, takes forever for all hits to finish so at best you will lose more hp than you will gain, but realistically you will just get grabbed. This is worse sustain than half the classes in the game.
     
  15. Srich

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    Dude really i didnt want to keep talking with you because so far what you are saying seems so wrong to me.. we may play the game in 2 different levels.. i always duel players with over 260 AP just like me so im 100% sure that a warrior with 260 ap can grab and 2 shot me 3600 HP... About the valk dashing out u got me wrong because you were complaining about getting slowed down by mistics skills ( which dont work if u block them ), but i said to you no matter if you get slowed or not you can still run away from a mistic if you start dashing like there is no tomorrow.

    What do u mean avoid a grab by running ? are u serius dude? there are ways to bait grabs and iframe them but there are also times when a mistic is simple stuck on the animation waiting for a grab and this is exactly what you dont understand and valk mobility is way better then a mistic mobility so its much esier for a valk to grab a mistic even esier if the mistic just faceroll sea burial and spiral torpedo in your face.. of corse im not saying that any valk can do this indeed most valks i know are just gear/class carried who are so used to faceroll any class (expections for war/valk ) that they lack on skill and ability to outplay another player and like you they refuse to study the enemy class because TO BE HONEST they never needed to be good to win fights... so instead improving their gameplay they just complain and cry of forum.

    Your other points? ok lemme talk about your other points
    inferior grab ? lol where? how and why? maybe u are another big genius that go around without precisions on zarka or not bringing another kutum with 2x ignore res grab for those who run with grab resistance build in 1v1
    inferior trading???? dude a valk softcap ( 253 ap or 243 with rce ) can cuz 50 % of my life with only bliz stab or W + F.. and ofc im 550+ gs mistic
    INFERIOR SUSTAIN ?????? maybe u forgot to mention your SELF PA , your BREATH OF ELION or your block bug that allow you to recover +45 % hp using hp pots while in block stance.
    Inferior iframes ? yes i think a class that have self heal , best block , bugged potions while blocking, second best burst in game ( after bersekers ofc ) needs iframes to survive... oh wait isnt F an iframe while disapearing ? i guess one iframe isnt too much for you.

    there is only a thing you said that is true... the fight is in favor of mistic IF the valk is not skilled at all
     
    Jessy Jess likes this.
  16. Netreiam

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    Sure, I'll give the point to you about warrior then. Still wouldn't call the match "easy" for the war vs the mystic but I don't have the experience with war to make that judgement.

    Back to valk

    I was complaining about the slow because it reduces how agile a valk can be during trading and severely cuts our burst down. Yes, I know it can be blocked. All of mystic skills (disregarding sea burial and spiral) can be blocked but I already explained how the skill shapes can bypass block without being directly behind it.

    The running bit was in reply to this statement
    I was saying that mystic could do the same strategy of just waiting for grab cooldown to engage if they wanted to. Obviously I'm not talking about sheathing your weapons and just running unguarded, or trying to outspeed them dashing in 1 direction. Just move the smallest bit out of range when they are getting close enough to grab you. I was not talking about baiting grabs because that requires staying engaged, which is not what you were talking about.

    Baiting grabs on a valk is very risky because of our "I frames" but I will come back to that later. In terms of getting stuck in animations, how is that specific to mystic? Every class deals with end lag. Its part of the coding of the game. A mystic is just as capable of taking advantage of that as a valk. As for how easy it is for a valk to land a grab... Do you play valk and have some dueling videos about how easily you land grabs against a similarly skilled mystic? Because this is the first video I found when I typed mystic vs valk in youtube.

    Things to note:
    The valk had a 15 GS advantage (passing the AP buff threshold) on top of that being AP vs DP (where DP is easier to pad GS with)

    the valk succeeded grabbing 13 times, 4 of which were the first grab of the match, 3 of which failed the second resist check (lucky bastard)1 of those being a first grab in the match.

    the mystic succeed grabbing 19 times, 5 of which were the first grab of the match

    Unless you have an argument for why this mystic is godly in terms of skill(they had several moments where they used "easily grabbed skills" like wolf fang and up close sea burial (then again those did pay off more than it hurt)) and why the valk is complete and utter trash then it's inconceivable that a class that has such an "easy" match up would lose so often to someone they outgear who is also DP build (which we know AP>DP).

    Same could be said about the effectiveness of mystic and how a bad mystic's inability to win vs good players doesn't reflect the classes actual balance.

    Who said I refuse to study enemy classes? From what I can tell, you aren't God or the FBI, so I don't think you know what my activities are.

    Finally, while complaining on the forums of any game is prevalent, arguing with people is also a great way to learn because both parties will dispel incorrect perceptions held by the other if they can back them up with evidence. There are many things I have learned from discussions on the forums, indeed, that's part of why many people use it.

    I already explained this but here is another video.

    Start watching from 1:00

    As I said before:
    -10s cd (longest in the game barring Rooting (zerker awakening grab))
    -Lower range
    -requires being in neutral stance in awakening to use via hotbar (Not easily accessible)
    -Fails even after succeeding (grab at 1:49) and this was with 2x precision and a kutum vs 25 grab resist (glove gems + base)


    50% in what situation? Did they have the santis buff (20 AP)? A pvp attack buff (10 AP)? Where you not cced and facing them (special attack mods)? Were your defensive buffs up (evasion/DR)?

    by trading I mean with defended skills (already explained my reasoning in a previous post) in order to reduce damage taken. This also includes the fact that mystics skills have better hitboxes as I said before.

    Won't even bother with the PA since mystic has something similar (yes its stationary but being grabbed [which is the best time to have PA for both parties] can cancel the animation leaving you with the effect while moving, and you could always kite the PA valk uses. Not to mention mystics is 5x shorter CD)

    Lets do the math on the heals though; I will have to use spiral tornado as the heal skill for now because I don't know how hard the new heal will be to pull off in a 1v1 scenario yet. This is assuming that the valk has 4000 HP since our heal is % based and lower % means lower heal.

    Total healing every 30s
    Mystic
    2500 from pots
    2500 from spiral
    5000 total

    Valk
    3625 from pots (45% buff)
    1300 from heal
    4925 total

    This does not include the fact that mystic has on hit heals, that the valk heal is stationary and therefore open to grabs/counter damage much more than the moving spiral, and assumes that the valk will be in neutral shield stance (not dashing, attacking) when ever she pots every. single. time.

    Even with all those facts to sway things in valk's favor, they still only barely break even. Things will be different with the heal nerf. Valk will probably come out on top if you add practicality, but if you add practicality you will have to realize that staying turtled to try and take advantage of superior pots leaves you open and therefore is unreasonable, that healing on a valk can't be done whenever because of the animation, along with the fact that mystic will be gaining HP from her other heal on hit skill. But we will have to wait and see how much the nerf changes things.



    If not for the fact that we have the resistance buff on block our lack of I frames (and actually protection in general if you look at valk's kit without block) valk would basically be completely useless. I would actually trade to resistance buff for more skill SA and I frames because, honestly, I will be the first to say it's pretty dumb.

    As for what Valk does have for I frames. They are pitiful. We actually have 2 (3?) 1. As u said, sanctis. and 2/3. The left/right + right click in preawakening and awakening (I count them kind of separately because they have different animations).

    Sanctis as a defensive I frame is stupid. Would you use wolf's frenzy before anything else if you felt a grab coming in the next instant? No? Well sanctis has a longer start up (I've had people dash to me and grab me before the jump started), less I frame time, and more endlag that doesn't require any special timing to grab.

    Preawakening shuffle is almost decent because 1. It can be canceled into itself and 2. the I frame lasts for about half the animation (~0.4ish seconds). I actually use this to give me a sliver of a chance of escaping when I get gang banged in RBF (rarely works, but better than guaranteed death) However it has huge drawbacks, firstly being it's stamina cost, second being the fact that you have to be in preawaken, where you're shield breaks 3x as fast, you're mobility and attack capability is very limited, and none of your (attack) skills have protection (meaning that if you don't shield up often you WILL be cced), and finally it doesn't move you out of range and so it is very common to still be grabbed through the I frame (and that's assuming you don't mess up the strict timing and get grabbed outright)

    Awakening shuffle as an Iframe is also trash. It has a longer animation with less of it (the initial dash, which is around 0.2s long) being I frame. It can't be canceled into itself (not quickly at least). and it moves even less (for the I frame portion) than preawaken. It's only advantage is that it can be use while in awaken but trying to bait with it, especially with these servers, is near suicide and should be avoided at all costs.

    Because of this, baiting with grabs is only really possible in preawakening (where valk is most vulnerable and least effective) and even then is likely to backfire.

    This feels suspiciously like and ad hominem.

    Tell you what. I'll make an uncut pvp vid vs a similarly geared mystic for you if you do the same (as a mystic vs similarly geared valks) for me. I won't say that I'm a god with the class. I know I can improve. But show me how exactly you struggle against valks since I just can't seem to imagine that scenario with what I know about both classes. Deal?


    Interesting, I've never seen a mystic get CCed after a failed grab. The skill itself says that the jump is I-frame. Possible Desync? I would have to see it myself.

    Even then I would say that doesn't make it bad for engaging because if the grab engage misses the opponent will likely either grab back (which the jump would dodge) or still be I framing away (which you could probably finish the jump animation and go into an SA before they have a chance to punish. I've explained my reasons for valk grab as a whole being bad.


    We will have to see how much of a nerf this is then. Just looking at skills, I that you have on hit heals in SA every 3s with tidal burst and also roaring tiger for 300 HP w/ no hits on a decently quick animation. The effectiveness of either could be argued, but since most classes require hits to heal and/or have longer cooldowns (or just no heal at all [ranger]) I wouldn't agree that it is that bad without further research.
     
    #396 Netreiam, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  17. Srich

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    You replied alot bro i understand you seek for knowledge and i advice you to pratice with a very skilled valk because from your replies i can understand you lack on experience both as valk and vs mistics... where do u play ? if u play on EU i can advice you some good valks.
    Doki videos are made to make him looking good and any skilled player knows that the dudes he choose are litteraly trash... that valk u posted on the video couldnt kill doki after a grab engage and where mostly sitting on block just taking the back attacks so you should really stop to watch this garbage videos and try to learn in battle arena how to fight.
     
  18. Srich

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    Spiral doesnt heal anymore so you can outheal a mistic in any time with your double selfcure and bugged potions... the Mistic PA is stupid to use on duels because u just sit near them wait for them to stop it then grab and kill... right after the mistic pa explode the mistic is vulnerable and cant move and u would notice this if u ever done some duels with a friend. using PA as mistic is just stupid and no sense in any scenario.
    You dont have resistence buff but
    lingering super armor which is very different from resistance buff and you should learn how to abuse that to stay in perma super armor.
    P.S. I saw your video about grab and yeah u need to be very close to land a grab and valk and the same goes for mistics/warriors/ninja/kuno.. the class who have a kinda ranged grab are wiz/ranger/tamer
     
    #398 Srich, Apr 4, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2018
  19. Netreiam

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    Pretty condescending there, you haven't seen anything of my gameplay. I'm on NA in any case.

    The video was an example of grab engages of valk not being easy as mystic. I don't really care about either of the people in it. I was originally trying to find a video with this guy https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_98YMjFKmNInAZdV9q4jPA but unfortunately he doesn't have one vs mystic yet.

    I gave my thoughts on the recent mystic nerf and healing.

    And no it's not SA, is a resistance buff, I know how my class works. Aside from being in the skill description, being in block does not give extra DR (besides the +20 buff that is part of the skill and is overlapped by HE) that is characteristic of all super armors. Any damage taken will be the same. And keeping up the SA is part of why I would rather trade it for inherently protected skills and I-frames. Having to reapply it constantly limits how aggressive or mobile a valk can be while being protected and also makes her somewhat predictable.
     
  20. Ciroc

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    Who doesnt think that Mystic is utterly broken as fck. Should be banned from guilds and blocked.

    Seriously wtf is this class, kick goes though FA?????? , High Movespeed??? great DPS ????? Much AOE?????
    Great sustain?????

    nerf this **** please, taking away the 500hp regain from one skill isnt ****in enough KAKAO.
     

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