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Need veterans to enlighten me on why it's P2W

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by levinano, Sep 2, 2018.

  1. United_Strafes

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    OFC not that's the Korean system, it's present in BnS as well keep the drop rates hilariously low and hold "events" that players may or may not be able to participate in, then the sheep say baaaaaaaa! See they do care gave me a horse, baaaaa!

    When in reality these things and methods of obtaining them at a REASONABLE rate should just be part of the game. Notice I said REASONABLE hundreds of hours in a video game is not reasonable for most western player, and probably never will be.
     
  2. levinano

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    Yeah I think this is actually the dividing point between the core Western MMO audience compared to the East. While Eastern players go to MMOs for the grind, for the time sink, and single players for the experience, I feel like Western audiences seek the same thing from an MMO compared to single players. Fairness. Like, whatever you do in a video game should on be in the video game, nothing from real life should be carrying over. While in the East, there's more of a toxic mentality where people go to games to escape the "there's nothing I can do" feeling in real life, and don't mind going as far as to spend their income to be able to "do everything."

    Sadly, despite still not having spent a shet ton on the game in the past couple years, I still grew up with this toxic mentality XD
    Spending money once in a while and hundreds of hours in a MMO is just all too normal for me :p
     
  3. Hypotermia

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    U r gravely mistaken if u still believe that SMH is cause of inflation. Sure its not helping thats true but seriously one thing cannot cause inflation unless majority of players r doing it which is not the case.

    For example. About year ago we players made around 5m from pure silver per hour from grinding. We had less ap and grind spots were a lot different from what they're now.

    For example im pulling almost anywhere in valencia 2x or even more of what i did last year. This alone has a lot bigger impact on economy than anything else. For example i can hystria / aakman and pull +15-25m per hour pure silver. Last year that was not case.

    Also because of renown score now AP / DP is king of the stats especially AP. This means all players are getting pure AP items and there is no gear variation at all. When every player essentially wants same thing market is bound to run out.

    Octoboi / koi events r not helping either. These cancerous events should be removed. Sure its fun to pull 1-4b during the event but problem is that almost everyone is doing it. Tho already most ppl have spent their fish moneys but its just switching owner not vanishing from game.

    There is so many solutions that PA could do but they've not done.

    NA/EU needs shakatu luxury boxes to pearl shop for 50m silver

    For example lower value of cron stones to 650k (little bit more par with pearl shop variation) this alone makes cron stones a lot more worth when using silver.

    Caphras stones to vendor for 2m silver each.

    All these would sink players money insanely fast. But nope
     
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  4. Xenon

    Xenon Kallitren Ninja 61 NA

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    I don't think you understand the implications of people being able to pay money to get the advantage of as many attempts at an upgrade as they want without any in-game penalty in a game mostly about gear progression and pvp. Maybe it might drain funds for most people, but there are always going to be those who have shitloads of money to just throw at whatever they want. Look at Bong for example. He wasn't very good at bdo, but he had tons of money and patience. He became a one-man army in a short time, before we had the ridiculousness of renown and ap buffs. The first day of the patch, 50+ pen items dropped into the inventories of EU players according to reports. That's just the first day. Give it a couple months, and people will earn more pens.

    SMH was the hottest topic for a while (now second hottest topic behind p2w) because it generated so much silver that it allowed players to actually afford cronning their gear for pens, as well as buy out large portions of the market from those unwilling to do it. But at least it was an ingame method, instead of someone's wallet. It meant that only the part of which you could play the game, afk or active, was contributing to your actual resource count. Now with the ability to generate as many cron stones as the wealth in your real life bank, you can effectively pull ahead of anyone regardless of their playtime and invest your non-game time into the game. Artisans were already a form of this, but it wasn't as bad. Not to mention, costumes now sell for significantly more.

    "BDO's Direction:
    This, is the biggest problem for me in terms of the recent patches. Many of the updates recently have buffed (or left them buffed) overpowered classes and nerfed trashed tiered ones past emotionally tolerable (but maybe still gameplay tolerable) amounts."

    I agree with the half I didn't include, but this I don't agree with. What actually happened was that the balance changes were made to flip the meta on its head. Essentially, everybody got nerfed, but the op classes got nerfed much harder. In some cases, it pushed a low tier class like Ninja up to the top because they couldn't take much more away from the class without completely ruining it. I'd argue with the recent changes they've made to nerf the class, they are heading in that direction. That aside, it also made classes like Sorc relevant as well and brought down classes like Witch, Warrior (in all scales), and Wizard in small scale. In other cases, it hasn't had much effect if at all on classes like Striker and Mystic, who still remain just about as relevant as before. The balance direction of this game is likely a combination of the developer looking at all the negative feedback, compiling it, and making adjustments to rid the game of those elements. Remember, everybody has complained heavily about one class or another at any time, except maybe the shortsword classes. As long as people continue to send in only negative feedback instead of balancing it out as negative feedback and positive ideas to improve it, it's gonna keep going this way. As for everything else, I honestly think they are trying to now rebalance and retool the game for the future console release, which would make a lot of sense. Make the game more attractive for casual people, simplify the combat so it can be better done on a control, improve the ui so it would look cleaner and be more minimal.

    As for how playable the game is: Of course it's playable. As long as you can log in, bdo will remain playable. Does that mean it's worth your time? In most cases, no. It's not worth anybody's time to continue investing in this or pick it up. The devs are sided against the players, and are only looking out for their shareholders. That's why they increased the visual presentation of the game to attract new players to bring in more paying players. Why they up'd the p2w ante by: Introducing a new system of balance to push for more gear. Rebalanced combat and class kits to change the meta, then introduce buyable coupons to swap classes more easily. Pushing for those weight and slot purchases, too. Why they put the final nail in the coffin for p2w and being scumbags: By disguising the introduction of cron stones and caphras as a means to help the players, they hope to hide their intentions. But it's all to push costume sales for cron stones. Caphras is there to keep the whales playing after they get pen, so they can keep upgrading. Next they'll introduce new upgrades afterward. It's a never ending cycle to milk players for money. That's all bdo will continue to be. It may be playable, but it has no honest future as a game.
     
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  5. Lemon Crush

    Lemon Crush CreamLemon Witch 62 NA

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    Well you cant call someone out for promising when they didn't promise.... you can't say they said never when they never said never.

    Your whole argument revolves around those key phrases that were never uttered by them.
     
  6. levinano

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    There was never an argument, the point was to present some facts so to say some people may be overreacting, while some just had enough.

    I was agreeing with your point and affirming it lol, not arguing against it. I affirmed that they never said never and that they didn't promise anything.
     
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  7. Lemon Crush

    Lemon Crush CreamLemon Witch 62 NA

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    My bad, long day I will admit I skimmed it.
     
  8. Atron

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    Ok this is not exactly related to the topic but it somehow fits in.

    I recently started new alt account on NA server ... from scratch.

    After 2h of playing i was already missing few perks from cash shop so i have opened it up and start adding items to cart.

    Weight limit ... without this you can not play, unless you use hercules set 24/7 while grinding.
    Pets <- this is P2W af ... you need 5 of them at T3 and that will cost you 100 USD if every smashing procs to T3.

    Then inventory ... not really needed but at least 2x16 is must have if you dont do quest from free inv expansion.

    Ok ... maids ... i know its a luxury item but once you are used to them ... god u miss it if you dont have em.

    Value pack goes without saying ... 30% tax on market place????? No thanks.

    Not even talking about a custume so you dont look like a sack of potatoes.

    You ever tried swimming without fish custume?? Its like dropping in quick sand ... i swam to that island on the lake for 49 quests ... legit i though i will never get there.

    Are you into life skilling? Oh boi you will spend on storage expansion slots.


    All this will cost you 400 USD Easy and in my opinion its a BARE minimum !!!


    Did you notice how i haven't mentioned artisans / custume melting / selling crap on market (5 per week) / kama blessing / T4 pets?

    The money you need playing this game is insane and i am really pissed with Kakao.

    All that money player needs to spend in cash shop and they STILL INTRODUCE MORE P2W????????????

    fu*k you Kakao seriously!!
     
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  9. RoaringSlash

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    You already saw this pattern a mile ago. when they introduced value back and veterens left knowing where this is going.

    if it's about how they broke their promise. ..Hello ? Value back .
    You have no excuse whatsoever to complain now. Accept it and move on. wheather you stay or leave like most of the old ones. join pserver and spend 10k Pearl to laugh about it, cuz u know someone in retail wasted his real money

    stop whining .

    You played archeage and tera for godsake. and I know 90% of those who r complaining r staying. No matter what . They just lovelove attention.
     
  10. United_Strafes

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    Ya but the white knights got you!

    You don't HAVE to have pet you can pick up the loot.
    You don't HAVE to have weight, you can go to town every 5 min.
    You don't HAVE to have inventory you can go to town every 5 min, assuming you have space in your storage.
    You don't HAVE to have a VP, you can just spend 30% more time grinding to make up the tax.
    Can't really imagine someone that is deep into life skills and crafting that has vanilla storage space. I don't see how it would be possible and profitable.
    You don't HAVE to have maids, you don't actually have to have maids that's pure convenience and you get one from the game.
    Fishing costume not a necessity.
    Costume not a necessity but I'm willing to bet everyone that doesn't have one running around in that butt ugly endgame gear wishes they had one.

    So ya lotsa stuff that is pretty necessary, before you even get into the shitstorm that is enchanting.

    Agree with you almost 100%.
     
  11. Escapism

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    Even if you want to get to very bottom and claim that massive advantages or boosts from a cashshop werent p2w as long as you can obtain the same thingsthrough playing, but just needing longer, then you would still have to atleast compare how a full f2p player would compete against a paying player.
    • f2p player playing "casually/average" vs. regular paying player player also playing average.
      • Paying player has a clear advantage, but might not be too significant due to rng and very slow, almost insignificant progression of both either way.
    • f2p player on welfare without job/family, nolifing the game 16-20+ hours a day vs. casual playing p2w whale?
      • f2p welfare abuser has the clear advantage (and this ridiculuos comparison used to be the main arguement against why its not p2w...)
    • f2p player nolifing the game 16-20+ hours a day vs. heavy p2w whale who has a job but also nolifes the game 6-10h a day?
      • Just no, no matter what amount of time and how many years of his life the f2p player wastes, he has absolutely no chance against the nolifing p2w whale, noone does.

    One more note: the game has been out for 3+ years already, go see how many players already reached full PEN gear after this amount of time (which already by far exceeded the average players lifespan or attention span for an mmo), then compare how many of those players are/were heavy p2w whales and/or exploiters/botters/hackers.

    You can do the math on how long it would take a pure f2p player who doesnt spend a cent, to reach full PEN on average. It might be a very far fetched statistic, but the result would be an amount of time that might just as well be defined as "impossible". Defendants will still claim this to be false, but they still cant bring up anything to disprove it. Because the best possible gear some full f2p players could come up with after 2-3 years no-lifing is softcap or slightly above (tet armor + weapons, tri accessories), which is still miles away and laughable in comparison to full PEN.
     
  12. levinano

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    To risk even more furrowed brows >.>...
    First lemme state my position: Yes it's P2W and it's unacceptable,
    but... >.>

    You can buy weight from the Loyalty Shop, albeit limited. You can have your horse/camel near you and infinitely stack trash loots

    Pets, yeah you need pets. Though I've only ever bought 3 pets, a cat and a griffon, and a bird. Two of which are still Tier 1 (because I didn't want to have to buy more of the same thing). I have 3 other tier 3s though, the bird, a penguin, and a kuku bird, all from log in rewards. They serve me fine if you toggle them to burn through stamina faster, even while grinding at low level places like Fogans I can still pick everything up. If you grind things with more DP then even more so, you don't even need to make them "active."

    Again, offered at the Loyalty Shop. I actually do think you need the inventory since even though you can stack trash loot, you can't stack other loot and other random things you might have on you like gear swaps, elixirs, food, potions, scrolls, etc.

    I honestly just got 2 maids from playing the game, one from way back when they launched and one from a quest I think, and I've been using only them lol.

    Value Pack doesn't neglect the 30% tax, it gives you 30% more from the original 70%. Meaning it's not 70%+30% but rather 70%+70%x30%, which means even with a Value Pack, you're only getting 91% of your profits. I still have a shet ton of them left over from gifts and random events (7 day version), and if you do decide to, you can get a bunch of stuff to sell together before buying a 1 day version in the Loyalty Shop then selling once every 14 days. Though, if you did that, you won't have left overs Loyalty points to buy weight and inventory space lol. I just bite the bullet and sell for that 70%, like I've always had before they release the Value Packs. The only reason anyone cares is because when they look over their shoulder to their left, everyone and their mothers are using a Value Pack and it makes you feel like you're missing out on too much.

    Well if you have Dim Tree armor you'd be harder to spot! Lol jokes aside, yeah costumes is a must buy, no workaround that. If you want to look better for a little less, you can use the Equipment Tailoring Coupon which is $15 as opposed to $29 or $34, and actually get some combat bonus like +1 Crit or +2 Movement Speed as opposed to extra XP or anti-death penalties.

    Yeah swimming slow is cancer, wait till you have to do quests underwater that make you go all the way to the bottom of the ocean, no way you could get down there while holding your breath. There is the work around of having elixirs popped and the gems in your boots but yeah, swimming still sucks. But are you really going to want to spend $22 to swim faster? I suggest you don't lol.

    Again, for life skilling, inventory and city storage. City storages by region, can be bought through Loyalties. I suggest getting the Calpheon ones first since one of them applies to 3 storages.

    Let me add one for you, the tent. It's OP and it's P2W and almost like a necessity and holy shet it's expensive, no way to defend that shet though. I guess white knights could say that 16 inventory slots isn't a lot? That you can't put anything player bound into it? That the repair anywhere is extremely pricy? You can't really defend the potion buying and villa buffs though.


    Disclaimer, again, I write this not to defend BDO's P2W. Just to show how I've been playing the game and how there are ways to still play the game without paying. Yes everything relies on you playing the game for a long time, but it's an MMO, if you're looking for a quick experience, this wasn't for you from the start. Yes if you look towards anyone else in the game you'll progress at half the speed of everyone else, but hey, at least you get to enjoy the game without having to rip holes into your wallet, at least you have that pride.

    Despite misinformed and lacking research, my comments were never meant to defend the P2W and suggest that PA should keep them in the game or worst yet, keep imposing more of them on us. It's just that no matter where you look, everyone makes it seem like the game isn't playable (not in the literal, but even in the competitive/relevance sense), and I'm saying I don't think that's the case, that you can actually play the game normally without losing out on too much as long as you have the patience.


    Now I get that this "patience" is something argued upon greatly. How much "patience" demanded from players is acceptable? That's where I also think where the line for P2W is drawn.

    For me, who've played RuneScape for 10+ years without botting or buying gold, I haven't even gotten close to what might be considered the "full PEN" of RS, all skills 99 and maybe even a quest cape. All of which can be achieved in a much shorter time (maybe within a year) if you bought gold (through websites or simply through the game's bond system) and botted. I didn't aim to be the best in RS, i just played because it's fun, and now I play BDO because it's a funner version of RS to me personally.

    So, now, I personally do think that people asking for full PEN, which is ultimately the highest achievement, through "normal" and "casual" playing of 30 months, is asking for a little too much. MMOs for me were always meant to be a never ending experience, despite spending 10 years into it you should still find other things to do. If you can get to the absolute end of a sandbox MMORPG within 2 years of launch, then the game is too easy in my opinion.

    How others break their wallets and play their game really shouldn't affect how you enjoy yours. That's the way I've always played any P2W game. Sure you'll be sad and grumpy when you do run into someone who paid and has full PEN, but that's only then, and you'd probably get over it within a few minutes, as opposed to now, everyone's just killing themselves by raging at the game and developers and just quitting the game (that they might actually enjoy if not for the P2W), simply because there's a possibility they might meet someone who has paid loads and progressed further than them. How many of these people announcing that they quit would actually be hurt by whales who ended up full PENing had they kept playing? Very few I assume. But I can assure you all of them, if they were still having fun up till this P2W shenanigans, would still be having fun had they kept playing.

    Why personally tell yourself that "I'm not going to have fun if I play this game because there might be some butthole weak noob out there who's played less than me but is ahead of me" when you could just enjoy the game like you've always had, and feel sad every once in a while when you run into a whale, and then move on and get back to what you were doing? Like the examples I gave before, it's not even like you'll be having these "once in a whiles" that often anyways.


    TLDR: I think everyone should just chill play the game like you've always had, it hasn't changed that much. Then, every once in a while, feel sad and cry when you run into a whale (because they now have the power to control the in-game world) for 10 minutes, then carry on and have fun playing your game again instead of hurting your sanity/ability to have fun, crying about the game's P2W and/or quitting.

    Stop letting yourself stop yourself from having fun from playing a game. At this point, it's not even the whales stopping you from having fun, it's the thought of their existence that's stopping you.
     
    #32 levinano, Sep 3, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2018
  13. Escapism

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    loyalty + pearlshop weight-upgrades stack. Loyalty ones add only +200 and you would have to log in for 140 days to be able to unlock that fully for just 1 character.
    You can toggle t4 pets to agile as well, not just lower tier pets. And for players who actually oneshot every mobpack and move from pack to pack within 1-2 seconds, not even 5x t4 pets are enough to keep up with looting, some loot will still be left behind. So you must be grinding really slow and have a lot of room of improvement there.
    Add a lot more than just ~-21% market tax, they add +16 inventory and storage spaces for all your characters & storages, which is the main reason for me to keep using them. Because with a large worker empire and basically almost every towns storage filled with different materials and other crap, most of my town storages would be overfilled without those extra +16 slots and thus most of my workers would stop working. The 16 inv space and +100 extra weight for all your characters is very nice benefit as well for both grinding and lifeskilling.
    Those additional combat bonuses like movement speed, crit, ect. you can get on regular pearl costumes as well. Look up "black spirit's claw".
    Which wouldnt leave you any loyalties to upgrade that weight limit. Same as getting value packs with loyalties. I would suggest everyone to spend his loyalties only on things that can ONLY be obtained with loyalties, a.k.a. the +200 weight for your main characters.
     
  14. Korvgubben

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    @levinano tl: dr cuz im at work atm. Will read your post later but I just want to state my basic reasoning and complaint about the games business model.

    1. All the stuff in the cash shop that you buy with real money could have been implemented into the game as content instead. So instead of the devs adding content to their game they just make a useful item (and ofc make sure that the basic game design creates a demand for said item) and put it in the cash shop. Less work for the devs and they even get paid for it.

    2. Real life is p2w, plain and simple. What I want from gaming is a platform that is different from real life, a platform where the winners of real life cant just buy their victory ingame too but rather have to put in the effort.
     
  15. Dworkin Barimen

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    Ehm,CP ,storage space .....?No one will mention that one?Didn't buy a single storage space expansion,because of it but what ever .The p2w crowd is too blind, and just plain lazy to use their brains to try and compete with whales,they would rather give up on the spot .But,i love how they miss the fact that when you out perform a whale ,is really satisfying,on a level they will never know because they would rather spend their time on the forums whining over every single thing they can imagine....
     
  16. ambyentlight

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    Before newbes had to spend months getting gears and now you can get softcapped real easy in under a month spending like maybe 1k bux.
     
  17. Dworkin Barimen

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    Wanted to add ,this:I love how no one is mentioning the free expansions we are getting.They could have easy placed a price tag on every single area starting with Mediah,and ending with the should be released some time soon Drieghan.I mean look at ESO,RIFT,WOW and many more mmo's that are slapping AAA prices on what is essentially a renamed form of patch.But no is the freaking cron stones.......
     
  18. EvL

    EvL

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    Agreed.
     
  19. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    from the money people have spent in this game they owe them patchez till they reach their pensions
     
  20. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 63

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    To answer your title - "win" is subjectively defined.

    If your idea of win is the prettiest house you can build, that can be pay2win, most of the furniture options are in the cash shop

    If your idea of win is ROFLSTOMPing everyone in sight, you don't need the cash shop to do it, it will just take you an immensely long time.

    Why people call this game p2w after the last patch is because of the wave of people melting old costume collections down on patch day. They created an idea in their mind that soon everyone will have better gear than them by paying with real life money and that they won't be competitive anymore. Yet this is nothing but an exaggeration in their own minds - one that fails to take into account that money management irl is a thing and that the wealthiest of whales in this game in fact will not be flushing most of their money down the toilet.

    Why won't the wealthiest do this? Because if their management skills are so poor, chances are they have pretty crappy net worth irl. As for people who are buying things on mommy or daddy's credit card? Lmao any reasonable parent will take away the card if they see thousands spent on a game and find out it was for RNG ****, bar a few very wealthy but very negligent parents.
     

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