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New Skill, Counter-Grab. Suggestion

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Angélik, Jan 2, 2021.

  1. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    In my opinion it's just for gathering trees, since a wizzard succession does even those things better anyway
     
  2. Vortexii

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    Wizard is actually one of the best classes for life skilling because activities like butchering often depend on being able to both instant cast and recover immediately. Many classes suffer a delay.......... looking at you Dark Knight that wants to wave their sword around showing off for 10 minutes before they will get to work butchering.
     
  3. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    :)

    To conclude the speech above Maehwa would be feasible if we were fast like warrior, invisible like ninja, without stamina problems like was in the past, and if we had the grab to pull the opponent already in the exact moment in which he is engaged, instead even if you get close it becomes a 1 minute duel, until you realize that 8 wizzard they have come upon you and you are made lame, frozen and bounced on the ground for 20 minutes for fun
     
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  4. Vortexii

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    Musa is completely broken and I am not familiar enough with Maehwa to make that same claim, but it does appear to have many of the same broken aspects. When it comes to a siege the aspects won't matter, but in 1v1 it's just simply busted. Mobility is simply broken in every aspect of the game. Without the double teleport even Succ Wizard wouldn't be nearly as problematic.

    You have an anti grab which many other classes simply do not. It's virtually impossible to fight ANY class that is moving to any degree. Every single time you hit an opponent they have to remain dead still. That's what the entire broken CC fest is about. The back dash on both Musa and Mae are one of the few reliable mechanics to counter this. In addition though the mobility allows you to simply choose whether to fight or not.

    All the forum PVP lie about this constantly. If their claims where actually true about avoiding grabs Zerker would be the WORST pvp class in the game. Meanwhile video evidence shows otherwise.
     
  5. Distaken

    Distaken Warrior 7 NA

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    Issue with this is that it makes fighting more geared and hard to catch classes impossible. Essentially what this change does is make every other grab fail, add that to grab resist and classes without pierce and one grab are having a difficult time using grab at all. If we ignore resist altogether though even, if we account for the time it takes to catch an enemy its a very narrow window and you'll need to catch them quickly or else you'll be back to where you started. The main thing I think of for this is that high geared casters (classes that already have added resist as well) are essentially only able to be CCd by grab unless they're careless so you can grab them once, they escape you grab them again and combo them to say 50% but now your next grab combo is doomed to fail and they can always just heal back whatever damage you do if you didnt 1 combo them. Also for classes like musa/maehwa/sorc if you grab themthen they escape its 8+ seconds before grab is back so now you're left with 12 or so seconds to try to catch them. One that isn't bad will easily just survive for that long. This will also force players to need to play more recklessly and just worse since you know that you've basically got to catch them every 10 seconds. Rather than give broken mechanics like this they shoud just add tools for some of these classes to avoid grabs better.
     
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  6. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    you should try it to understand that it is not so, we have to move to get behind, you just have to turn the camera to block the shot, I have to be close to you to pass behind you suffering the damage and risk a grab, the mobility is not infinite and every class is full of debuff on mov speed, much better a class that comes behind you hidden or teleports behind with protected CC and even with and 360 degrees aoe, while we have to do everything manually, turn the camera 180 degrees, and we do not have big aoe, just a small inaccuracy and you do not hit the opponent, with the damage that you currently suffer it is very easy that just to attempt such an attack you end up dying, colliding against rotations of sa and fg getting nothing .
     
  7. Angélik

    Angélik Maehwa 63

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    With the Counter-grab on classes like the Mae, Musa, Dk, .. it is indeed very possible, that for 20/25 sec (Because yes, during the 8sec of the CD grab, you can already move forward and get closer to you. you don't have that 12 Sec really During the 8sec you don't have to stand still but you can already prepare yourself.

    If ever you can't catch her within 25 seconds, she has to back up and stay away which means it wasn't really a danger to you either.
    It feels like the game is on a break because neither player wants to take any chances.

    Simply, the story-grab would force the Perma block class to leave their safe zone and take a little more risk. Or he stays in Q block and nobody wins. Are you saying that CC a class (like Nova succ for example) is practically impossible without Grab. We must therefore find a way for them to take risks.

    If you take the case of a Tamer for example, in 25 seconds it can easily grab someone. A tamer with a lot of mobility even in front of a Mae, which very often finds itself short of endurance very quickly in front of such a class.

    The other solution is effectively to set the CC Grab to 2.0 so as not to have CC a second time. No longer use the Grab in 1st in order to kill but only to do some damage (depends on the gear).

    Tell yourself that all the classes in the game, really all, have lots of CC and not just the Grab. However, far too many people only see this as a solution. If he can't grab, he can't win. All of bdo's PvP revolves around grab. At the same time he is so strong, very little risk for the gain he brings if he succeeds ... Why use something else?


    How about if some stiff of the mae could get through a FG? You will surely find his OP and not logical. Why can the Grabs? (SA or FG!). How many times do we not try to do a 180 ° for CC in the back and we get caught in the middle of the Dash 180 ° because they have no risk, no fear of failing because the Grab is SA and passes above all!

    How many times during my duels do I not fall against a player who remains in S block / Q block and who only waits for the moment to grab. He never tries other things, no Q block / S block and some AOE SA history of doing some damage but remaining very Safe because they turn out that little Mae / Musa can literally do nothing.
    If we stay far, nothing happens. If we advance a little, we take AOE SA / FG (Slow, movement / attack) and if we approach too close, Grab.
     
  8. Rügenwalder Pommersche

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    i dont think introducing new mechanics helps at all, all they really need to do is higher the cd of grabs
    if a grab class cant grab on every single engage its not as punishing if u only have a few ways to avoid them, if they have to find other ways to cc people (outside of grab) they might finally understand how non grab classes feel in certain matchups xd. If the grab cd´s is around 20-30 seconds u solve the grab spamming while still keeping the strengths. Really dont know why some grab classes with literally 8 seconds downtime.. I have been grabbed - combo - grabbed by strikers and warriors way to often(obv with ds combo) thats just super toxic being able (if the ds works) to exceed the cc limit without counterplay.

    or give every class reliable "low" cd iframes (matching grab cd´s), way harder to execute, esp with desync
     
    #188 Rügenwalder Pommersche, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  9. Vortexii

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    Look at the bigger picture, most of that doesn't apply. For one you are trying to do the classic lets compare our class to the most broken class in game. I noticed you used the word block, that concept doesn't apply in BDO. The 1v1 meta is about long range AOE grabs, mobility, and invisibility.

    While Mae doesn't have the broken grabs it does have the ability to avoid them. Many other classes simply can't do anything about dash/grab. That's why despite all the liars Zerker, Warrior etc are effective. Because NOT all classes have any counter or way to deal with this.

    There are also classes that are the complete mercy of Musa/Mae because they simply can't keep up with their mobility.
     
  10. Rügenwalder Pommersche

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    would like to meet those classes, cos from my experience its only archers and rangers IF they dont have the ap to kill u before u are close.
     
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  11. Vortexii

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    You have to apply practical situations and sometimes the worst and most abusive situations. Some of these classes probably fit in as well, DK, Shai, Sorc, Awakening Witch, Nova, Guardian, Awakening Wizard, etc.

    If a red Mae simply wanted to run away and change servers for example they would simply not be able to do anything about this. While there are other cheese mechanics to do this as well ESC, V. It gives another way to escape rather freely.

    In addition in a smaller scale fight it can be enough to get support. Classes like the Sorc, Shai, Witch will have a hard time doing anything.

    People like to pretend the dash is so limited, but that's just factually not true. You might not have infinite stamina to kill everyone, deal with classes like Hash, Zerker, but it's certainly OP in many situations.
     
  12. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    yes in those where you run away because you have approached you have been taken half of your life with the first distance skill, this is the purpose of escaping, beautiful class, really OP, there are so many around that statistically it must be a class that works well . The grab done well is the one that cannot be avoided, make a meehwa trial and I will make you a trial ranger and try to kill him, you will see that if you stay away from it you can not do anything, if you are too close he kills you with arrows and if you attack it closely he protects himself with an SA and uses the grab and kills you, because it is very easy to counter a class that can only CC you closely and can do it for a few seconds and must decide whether to risk and finish the stamina near the opponent or run away for take a little distance, which is often recovered by anyone in a few seconds, to recover by standing still for about ten seconds, if at that moment another opponent approaches you have no way of getting out of that block stamina recovery situation, finished the block remains a dash and then you can't even attempt an attack because any decent skill requires the stamina you no longer have, while other classes never stop or have better disengagement or are very protected with their block, I to chase a wizzard succession after his first two TPs I have already run out of stamina, he can do everything from ranged attacks, freeze, and destroy the block while I am unable to move, meanwhile he recovered TP and i'm with low stamina to chasing him again
     
    #192 Kurtferro79, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
  13. Rügenwalder Pommersche

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    yes we can kite those - because we have to. If we ever try to sa trade we are dead, if we ever go for any type of melee cc we are at a great risk of getting ccd (first) or instantly dead. All those classes have more damage, more protection, more aoe/range and grabs (besides witch), on top of debuffs. But yes us having mobility as the trade off is soooo good for us :)

    dk and sorc are very fightable even tho they still outrade us - either with superior dmg (dk) or because they can iframe our hard hitting spells (sorc). Still as i said they are not bad matchups imo, dk is very punishable and sorc are just annoying. Didnt mention shai even tho u did since thats pointless to mention in a pvp balance argument.
    But that literally doesnt matter. If a Musa or Maehwa runs away he is not doing anything to u so u can literally almost ignore him. Its the same with a Nova sitting in block - i can ignore that too because there is no way i will ever be able to break the block or cc them. So you are saying the mobility to run away is so broken but what if a red nova just sits in block in front of me? Literally the same situation as the mae running away swapping server.
     
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  14. Vortexii

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    There are plenty of Musa/Mae videos that demonstrate a very different outcome then what you are saying. Clips of actual fights and outcomes. While some people often collage them to make the class look OP the fact remains they are generally real footage. People that have gear and know how to play these classes do rather well. They are NOT stifled by the things you claim make the class so weak or things you can't counter.

    The meta also completely shifted in favor of Musa/Mae. They used to do chip damage or multiple pokes. Now with the absurd AP's you can instantly destroy nearly anyone by simply having enough GS.

    You also don't look at factors like Arsha where the ability to engage/escape is more important than normal servers.
     
  15. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    It is full of videos for all classes
     
  16. Rügenwalder Pommersche

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    and there are just as many videos of people doing great in 1vs1 with awak wiz or witch - does that make them a good 1vs1 class because 10% of the time it works out? Watching a montage with montage plays to form opinions is the worst thing u can do. They are meant to show the highlights, they are meant to show that funny moment where u onetapped a gearlet with one skill. You will not see players upload videos where they have to kite a class for 5 minutes till they finally land a stub and kill a player afterwards.
    literally the opposite. The meta shifted towards block classes (warrior always strong, guardian/nova new classes, succ valk being kinda fotm too). We are literally unable kill those classes if they dont **** up. Pair that with the by u mentioned high dmg in the game we cant even get in melee range before a succ wizards grills our ass. But sure if u are 50 gs above someone musa is actually pretty good at destroying low dp targets. But this isnt the case if u are equal gear, quite the opposite actually. One thing that actually "helped" us was the introduction of accuracy accessories. Thats the only point u could have made.
     
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  17. Vortexii

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    Pretty much yes, but when it's actual OWPVP it may be difficult to estimate gear score differences or player ability. Also remember a lot are edited clips so the opposing side might have won some fights that magically don't appear :-)
     
  18. Kurtferro79

    Kurtferro79 Maehwa 63 EU

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    Show me a video of a Maehwa EU that in mass PVP does multiple kills at a time, not against undergear I talk about similar gear against people who know how to play not noobs, I have videos of classes like wizzard, witch guardians who make massacres while standing still with a few skill, this is to be considered OP not if someone good manages to make a kill and run away against I don't know who.

    One example: https://streamable.com/0n9m1j

    second: https://streamable.com/n5e8sk

    .. https://streamable.com/i151xj

    Let me see a video with something similar with maehwa

    This is siege guild we know almost their GS, not random ppl

    all Maehwa:
    https://clips.twitch.tv/FlaccidFriendlyHippoCoolStoryBob :)
     
    #198 Kurtferro79, Jan 13, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2021
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  19. Vortexii

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    I agree with the editing and misleading outcomes. However, they do demonstrate a lot of things that contradict what many are saying here. You give the impression the class is helpless and can't counter others, but that's not what's on tape.

    The Meta is certainly NOT block classes. At least not for their blocking ability. Warrior is a perfect example of that. They are completely OP because of their fast grab combined with mobility. Their block also means nothing to the majority of BDO players. The majority simply abuse FOTM and mechanics so they just abuse the games weak design.

    Also comparing to Succ Wizard isn't a good example of anything. Virtually any class will just tell you it's busted. Even classes with a FAIR match up against them will complain they are busted ;)
     
  20. Vortexii

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    You should never do that. The difference between group combat and 1v1 is so distinctly different that they should not be compared at all. Only in very specific situations is it even possible to consider.

    It doesn't lead to any productive discussion or accurate results. Warrior is a good example of that. It's not destroying the Siege Meta while it is ruining 1v1's.

    Witch isn't destroying 1v1 while pre PA nerfs it was certainly a factor in large scale.
     

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