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Ninja op? How would you fix?

Discussion in 'Ninja' started by Shuriyo, Jun 7, 2018.

  1. Shuriyo

    Shuriyo Michizoe Ninja 62 EU

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    As title says, seems ninja is the new most hated class. I've been called busted, op, broken etc. So, how would you adjust ninja so that it would be more in line with other classes? Alternatively, convince me ninja is balanced :)
     
  2. This^

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    Far to early to make any sweeping changes. Most classes have been able to rely on a plethora of protected skills while we have never had that luxury. Once they catch up it will be easier to evaluate.
     
  3. Xenosuke

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    Personally, I feel like we are not as broken as people are acting. In my opinion it's more that people are having to re-learn their classes since they lost most of their protections and have not found the best way to utilize their kits with the changes. Everyone is more on the level ninja was before losing the SA/FG, so we have a slight advantage since our play-style was not affected as much as others. Even ninja lost some of the very few protections we originally had though. I have had some issues trying to reforge my habits, forgetting that some moves are not protected like before. So I get that frustration.
     
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  4. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    Only thing I would change on ninja, is the amount of time they can be in stealth. Apart from that i think leave ninja alone really.
     
  5. Tvvin

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    Lets be real. Most bad players complaining who cannot fight Ninja today couldn't fight him before all these changes. A lot of incorrect information has been thrown around.


    Anyways to your comment -

    Ninja is fine. Hes mechanically sound , partially protected (like everyone else) and can only use QOL changes. Meanwhile other characters could use some refining. and actually playing their characters to gitgud


    Oh .Also buff Flare radius and animation speed to be more reliable. So bad players can stop using Concealment as a excuse as to why they lose to good Ninjas
    upload_2018-6-6_23-52-33.png
     
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  6. Yazuko

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    I think ninjas are just in a better spot than before, they are finally what they meant to be, a squishy but extremly dangerous class with insane damage. High skill is required like playin sorc. I was also playin ninja but i had to quit cuz im laggin as hell. :( but yea ninja isnt op, hes just what He is now, a deadly assassin.
     
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  7. TonyJaa

    TonyJaa Kenobi Ninja 61 EU

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    There is nothing to adjust my fellow Ninja! Why? Because nothing has changed. We've been struggling for a very long time. And yet, none of the people complaining created a thread asking for our class to get a buff. And why would they? As long as it doesn't affect them, everything is fine and dandy.

    Pearl Abyss made some radical changes and every class, pretty much became like us. People refuse to adapt and relearn their class. It's simple as that. So let them hate us! I'm pretty sure, due to constant whining, that Pearl Abyss will eventually nerf the class.
     
    #7 TonyJaa, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
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  8. Wylph

    Wylph Ninja 62 EU

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    So we've gone from everyone calling us a trash class to op after a few nerfs. I guess the keyboard face-roller classes have to ltp now.
     
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  9. MoZex

    MoZex Musa 62 EU

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    As a former ninja id rather see ninjas ontop than mystic which is a more easy-go-to class.

    I def agree that ninjas are at the top ladder in terms of all classes, while it still is a niche role, it isnt like how mystic was back in the days that had a presence in everything. Ninjas arnt nec in the fray, and while its a solid grinder there are still many classes ahead, and its strictly melee-just about.

    What makes ninjas strong is everyone being finetuned, less cc and sa thrown around. Ninjas playstyle did not get tweaked as much compared to other classes, while x class had drastic changes in gamplay setting limitations and still could use tweaking, as with learning. Iframes/transstance block/blockjump/one of the strongest dmg on absolutes/stealth engage/reengage/grab/enough protection on engage - all makes it perfect in the current landscape. Like just a grab engage or a bsb engage are superpowerful tools alone and the targets are quickly down in hp% with little setup.

    The people complaining may have a bit of unrealistic view of how to fight ninjas, and i also think much is left to be explored in terms of dp or eva, they may in some cases be useful stats vs a ninja if u dont play perfectly by avoiding ninjas cc. And it is also meant to be more teamorientated now, someone also always have to be on top, id rather see a ninja there than a jack of all trades class (granted everyone has a figthing chance).
     
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  10. LethalAF

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    Buff every class back to where it was so I can still **** on them and go about my life without the PM's calling me broken.

    BDO is 98% talentless weebs who cry about Waifu's and anime.

    No one cares how they feel.
     
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  11. Otrsor

    Otrsor Sorceress 63 EU

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    Ninjas strengths right now are being hard to catch if played properly and having "easy as f.." engages, i rather keep the personality of the ninja being a slippery class so i guess the easy engages should get the nerf instead. Being hard to catch doesnt harm, but being able to engage into anyone without effort in a safe way... thats just op, specially now cos only ninjas have that.

    In fact grab engage is way too easy for ninjas, good ninjas can play without it but bad ninjas are merely attempting to grab engage into any cookie cutter combo they have learned, this isnt just quite easy but also damn efective, removing it would instantly mark a big difference betwen bad and good ninjas and for this i would just remove blockjump stiff and the possibility of chaining it instantly with a grab (yet the grab part is a bit harder to implement i guess)

    The stiff isnt such a big deal but makes some FG and unprotected dashes useless against it which pretty much destroys any chance of counter the blockjump on some classes, im pretty sure most good ninjas could live without it (cos pretty much before the changes that stiff landed once every 89123675892 times cos everyone was on SA and either the ninja timed it to a FG or accepted it wasnt going to land) but new trash ninjas would have to learn a new and more risky engage.

    Anyways, i already posted my thoughts about why i feel grabs arent well balanced for the current meta and how i would adress the issue, this would really make, not only ninjas but every grab class, require more skill and fights in return be more interesting, my idea didnt get much attention but i still feel its an elegant solution to this issue and thus ill keep promoting it a bit.
     
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  12. Lenerlink

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    It's more or less that lots of classes pre-awaken kit is not as good as Ninja. Tamer pre-awaken kit was good due to how the old cc system worked and heilang follow ups but with the nerfs to heilang over the years and changes to CC it's just as bad as our awakening kit. Sorc could be as good if thier iframes allow quick actions right after it on some moves. But with the ability to go invs for 20? Secs, multiple iframes and attakcs that allow movement along with a move that puts you directly behind a person with a stiff, a grab that is iframes even when you miss, and quick moves with cc with protection. Will overwhelm most classes due to our lack of options against it and waisting abilities to protect ourselves that are also ment to kill in a combo where as you don't have that problem much.
     
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  13. LethalAF

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    Nerfing ninja is a terrible idea. Just buff everyone else please.
     
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  14. Otrsor

    Otrsor Sorceress 63 EU

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    Nerfs > Buffs
     
  15. Goobur

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    If your constantly getting caught in block jump your terrible, literally, terrible OR your against Mayzap/Daynim type skills, which is literally 1% of ninjas. Block jump is hard to hit consistently, especially against good players....because really whats so hard about moving? Literally all you need to do dash/teleport/run away/walk away and you've countered block jump.

    Most re-rollers will always be bad ninjas, it's not a class you can just Jump on like mystic/dk and be good. They are watching these old school ninjas who have been with the class for years who murder everything and they fail to realize They have SKILL and 250+ AP. I say good luck to the new ninjas, but in 1-2 months time, after all the dust settles and most of the classes are tuned, their going to be gone.
     
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  16. Kusaragii

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    I think part of the problem is not all classes have such a good pre-awakening kit in comparison to a class like Ninja. Some classes before these patches only excelled because of the protections on their awakening skills. Now that these protections have been removed on most part on their awakening skills, they have to rely on pre-awakening skills that aren't so good to begin with.

    Yes, Ninjas 'survived' with less protections in a time where lingering SA and infinite SA was a thing by certain classes.. but now Ninjas are able to upkeep stealth almost indefinitely and able to engage whenever they feel like to and escape practically unscathed.

    I understand its strange to see people call Ninja of all things OP in this day and age. Actually, I thought this day would never come but you have to admit, a lot of people are re-rolling to the class for a reason.
     
    #16 Kusaragii, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  17. J0kerscyc0

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    I think this is important. Many classes used perma SA rotations and it became a crutch for them. PA kicked that crutch out from them and they did it to fast for them to learn to walk without it. I think in time people will learn to play around it. That being said I think, just from changes and current standing (which can change next week), nin will remain one of the strongest 1v1 mainly because how strong their Pre awakening kit is.

    May be a nobody but I know MMOs.
     
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  18. Otrsor

    Otrsor Sorceress 63 EU

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    Again, this is not my personal problem, its a general issue, im a sorc ffs, i dont get caught by that but tell me how is a wiz supposed to get away? or a striker-mystic-ranger-lahn-zerker-valk.. most classes cant just "move" protected right now and dont say its hard, it is NOT, landing blockjump->grab is f..ing easy even against good players, its probably the easiest engage ninjas and kunos have and (but for kunos it is harder to cheese with it cos are forced to use more SA skills on their rotations so they tank more dmg).

    I have no problems with hard mechanics being usefull, but blockjump->grab engage isnt hard at all unless you are braindead.
    I propose you this, do 1v1s against random ninjas and tell me how many duels end with a blockjump->grab or simply straight up grab engage, the ratio could be around 80-90% easily.
     
  19. Dindu Nuffin

    Dindu Nuffin Voidbyndir Ninja 62 NA

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    Ninja is fine. People just aren't used to playing without 100% uptime on super armor. Give 'em time and they'll adapt just like ninja had to.
     
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  20. Nyhver

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    I'd give other classes options based on the old pvp system because this new one is trash and removed too much stuff for everyone

    Parry/counter/anti-grab mechanic/pierce mechanic, or all of them, but these overall give some much needed push and pull for mechanics other than just sa grab fg iframe, I really like grabs as part of the concept but two things should have been done to balance that which is either grabs being universal or some other mechanics that non-grab classes have that grab classes don't have that is nice- PA trying to balance around grab being powerful has not worked at all and thinking adding float shenanigans and capping grabs a lot would change it is naive. You can balance it by capping grabs alright, by removing their damage & combos to negligible, but that also ruins a good mechanic of a grab, if someone is sitting in block and can't be moved, (warrior/mystic) you should be able to punish them rather than trying to damage them through shield when they still have a big advantage of attacking you when they want.

    Grabs & grab combos and grab engage should be thing, and people should get rewarded for them, too, it's just that there's a general lack of options overall in the system and especially on a class by class basis, the notion that ninja were unprotected and now everyone knows how it feels to be a ninja is a naive one as well, sorcs claim it, hell probably every class has at least some one who said it except maybe warriors and mystic, the problem is old/new warrior and mystic being too safe and being training wheels pvp, that's the problem and not every class has 360SA with a old gravedigger slow that is so delayed the animation ends and you still somehow get clipped into the ground with a heavy slow. This notion that ninja or sorc or 'x' class here was unprotected is false. Lingering your SAs was good and bad for this, limited because you sort of had to linger some SAs to do a full protected chain, kind of good because you could still change up the timing and if we went too much into 100% protected territory it'd be like now, where gear matters a ton and we have wet noodles with low ap hitting each other with 0 CC. Ninja had protections before the changes and it's not a "we had no protections" issue, lingering murderous intent was good as hell pre-changes, ninja wasn't as safe as warrior/mystic pre-change but what classes besides those were? Ninja was safe enough, every class had issues with abilities not working like block jump, no class had anything like their basic movement ability work 99% of the time, it just didn't work that much. Warrior block + lingering SA was one of the most stable things and as far as I could tell it still had issues working sometimes.

    Part of this would be helped by CC RNG not being a thing, and adding 1-3 CC breaks with small windows of immunity, (5 seconds is way too long, but having no window also emulates this current clown show of get up animation being liable to be chain CCd over and over with little ability to deny it other than RNG) so that 1 grab wouldn't be the end of it all and it'd help emphasize proper strategy, decision making, spacing & cooldown use.

    Now that everyone realizes this is probably never going to happen, (Thanks PA and letting us know you want to water down the game and pvp because it's too hard) I wouldn't touch ninja at all. PA already ruined things enough.

    Instead of doing things like buffing every class protection to be ghost step that's a 100% iframe that is very reliable we're stuck with 1/3 of what we use to have and ghost step is still not very reliable

    Sucks, but anyways that's what I'd do, I'd give classes more options, maybe speed up some animations/damage like ninja getting absolutes which helped their overall damage, make protections more reliable, maybe give universal grabs, I'd also personally nerf good ninja like Daynim/Mayzap/Cooler/Sura_Katana/Vensoul/Instinct/Arocchi, just whenever I find them or someone accuses someone of being any of those players I'll slap a 50% damage reduction nerf on them and 30% movement speed, on account, or at least whenever they play ninja.

    How else am I suppose to beat good players?

    xd
     
    #20 Nyhver, Jun 7, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
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