1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Objective 1v1 tier list

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Netreiam, Sep 23, 2018.

  1. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,218
    So there is a lot of discussion around class tiers in regards to 1v1.

    Figured we should have a real discussion about this stuff with ground rules so we can, as objectively as possible, figure out where classes are in 1v1 capability instead of making baseless claims.

    Format:
    List your main (or another class you have similar expertise with) and give a break down of every 1v1 match (excluding mirrors of course) with a score for how many matches in a hundred you think your class wins against said class assuming all factors are equal and accounting for human ability to make mistakes or misjudge a situation. Provide a decently detailed account of how fights break down and go into as much detail as possible on mechanics that play into winning the match.

    Things you should (but aren’t limited to) include are:
    1. Mobility differences
    2. Number of Protected CCs
    3. Skill effect range
    4. Grab or lack of
    5. Average combo damage


    Rules:
    1. Gear is assumed softcap+ for both characters, AP build.
    2. No cooldowns over 2 minutes or 100% rage skills
    3. Statements from others can be debunked but sufficient evidence contrary to the original claim should be provided along with a revised score for the match up in question.
    4. Scores for all match ups will be averaged to determine relative “strength” of the class.

    When I get some time I will try to create a visual representation of the results

    So for a concrete idea of what I mean:

    Main: Valk

    v Warrior: 35/65
    The main advantage for warrior lies in their grab range over valk’s as well as I frame to dodge any valk grabs. From neutral a valk can either go straight for the kill with a grab engage or try to land/bait the warrior into a suction. Usually the first stratagy fails or backfires into the warrior landing a grab if they expect it or using head chase to dodge on reaction. The second stratagy relies on pressuring the warrior with feint engages enough to catch them off guard and is not reliable in high latency. The warrior’s grab engages can be dodged by preawakening shuffle but this is very desync prone and even with correct timing often fails.

    Aside from that both can try to outmaneuver the other with CCs while the opponent is engaged, due to similar kits this strategy is about equal odds I would say.

    Matchups.png

    Kuno : 57% avg
     
    #1 Netreiam, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  2. I m Valk
    Win/loose
    Ninja 10/90
    Kuno 40/60
    Warrior 50/50
    Mage 75/25
    Witch 95/5
    Sorc 40/60
    Striker 30/70
    mythic 30/70
    lahn 70/30
    Ranger 40/60
    Dark Knight 80/20
    Musa 90/10
    Maewa 75/25
    Tamer 40/60
    Zerker 45/55

    bur basicly out of 100 duels I would say I would loose by mistakes as I would win by luck 10% of the fights as well as loose even against a class I m a pefect counter.
    More Problems are that well the individual skill of the players matter a lot I know a lot good ninjas and sorcs agsinst then I loose more xD So well lets see the results then
     
  3. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,218
    Need more depth than just numbers. It’s a start, but please explain why the fights breakdown like that.
     
  4. Wollbert

    Wollbert Witch 61 EU

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,606
    Likes Received:
    1,303
    Main Ranger:
    Ninja. hard to win, impossible against good ninjas. 20/80
    Kuno. hard to win, but way easier than ninja. 40/60
    Sorc. unwinnable except sorc makes huge missplays. 10/90
    Valk. okayish matchup, just dodge the succy. except for valks that know how to play like Bloodpaw. 60/40
    Warrior. okayish matchup 50/50
    Maewha. hard to catch, need a good defensive play. 40/60
    Musa. Way easier than maewha, except he plays like Zheic 60/40
    Lahn. hard to catch and the lahn grab is not avoidable. 30/70
    Zerk. easy to CC. hard against DP zerks coz of the healing and still oneshot damage 60/40
    Tamer. okayish matchup. care about the pet if you do your grabcombo 50/50
    DK. just wait if they frame into your face (they do it all) to grab them. 60/40
    Mystic. very different due to many fotm roler plebs... but outplay potential is there 60/40
    Striker. Same as Mystic 60/40
    Witch. hard against Witches with brain. ez against the average facerole witch 80/20
    Wiz. easier than witch. very ez matchup 90/10
    Mirror. i barely have problems with other rangers, even with top geared siege rangers. 80/20
     
    #4 Wollbert, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  5. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,218
    So for a concrete idea of what I mean:

    Main: Valk

    v Warrior: 35/65
    The main advantage for warrior lies in their grab range over valk’s as well as I frame to dodge any valk grabs. From neutral a valk can either go straight for the kill with a grab engage or try to land/bait the warrior into a suction. Usually the first stratagy fails or backfires into the warrior landing a grab if they expect it or using head chase to dodge on reaction. The second stratagy relies on pressuring the warrior with feint engages enough to catch them off guard and is not reliable in high latency. The warrior’s grab engages can be dodged by preawakening shuffle but this is very desync prone and even with correct timing often fails.

    Aside from that both can try to outmaneuver the other with CCs while the opponent is engaged, due to similar kits this strategy is about equal odds I would say.

    Will update.

    v Sorc: 40/60
    Sorc's ability to chain I-frames while constantly poking with quick CC and mid ranged attacks makes pressuring CC valk's short and few CCs near impossible and leaves waiting for the proper prediction on a grab while trying to stay mobile and not get shield broken OR waiting for the sorc to run out of stamina, which is difficult due to their ability to block/ S wak to regain stamina.
     
    #5 Netreiam, Sep 23, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  6. Schönfeld

    Schönfeld Warrior 61 EU

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2017
    Messages:
    336
    Likes Received:
    337
    Main : kuno


    Ninja. ez especially since block jump nerf & they dont have tendon cutter like kuno
    Kuno. who will land that first cc ?
    Sorc. medium especially if she knows how to chain iframes & attack at the right time , i have a lot of fun fighting them probably one of the best matchups i can have
    Valk. ez too static , well , if they move they die , & if they don't move they die too , so ?
    Warrior. super ez they should remove this class tbh feels like fighting memes
    Maewha. ez unless she beams out to space with her dash
    Musa. ez unless he beams out to space with his dash
    Lahn. ez meme class also this class needs a huge rework
    Zerk. medium get one shoted if i do 1 mistake especially if he use ancient wave , they got nice movement skills to avoid pretty much all cc's so it's a nice matchup , tanky , really nice dmg , nice gap closers , deadly if well played
    Tamer. ez if you stack resistance & can do your combo without worrying about that bad wolf
    DK. ez too squishy medium damage few iframes , her cc's are hard to land , dk is not in the best spot right now
    Mystic. medium if she knows how to use her pre awakening , though dmg is not that high unless 259ap+
    Striker. ez mode compared to mystic
    Witch. ez , medium if 255AP+ ( juste get one shoted by mistake )
    Wiz. ez , medium if 255AP+ ( just get one shoted by mistake )
    Ranger. medium , i mean if she knows how to use iframe at the right time then instantly grab me i'm dead

    Kuno is extremely good vs melee classes , when it comes to ranged though , it's a bit harder
    edit : then again i'm not that geared & got only 555 , & these are based vs skilled opponents that i fight against since a long time already so i know how they play & how to counter them so this can be a bit biased.
     
  7. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,218
    Can you give a brief over view of what mechanics usually sway the fights and what skills help/hurt you the most and how?

    Also an average score for how many wins out of 100 with an average for all fights in total
     
  8. 6footgeeks

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2016
    Messages:
    1,665
    Likes Received:
    1,411
    From a kuno perspective win rate in percent and win/loss where relevant. all comparisons from a open world perspective since open world is the only relevant comparison 1v1 thanks to arsha.

    Ninja: 30-40% BJ nerf favoured us more than them since we have more SA and protected CCs, their damage is outlandish though so having SA and SAing through a ninja skill are two very different things. You have to be carefull against ninjas even 2-3 Reknown levels (im gonna call it RS from now) because they can still 1 combo most classes with that

    Kuno: 50/50. but as with most things kuno vs X class, if they're3 1-2 RS above me the damage just falls flat and feels like you're fighting a mistake

    Witch: 70-80% like with both mage classes, its a game of patience, unless one catches a mage while their buffs are down one will often not one combo them, and then its a matter of whittling their heals down before going for the kill. you cannot get careless even if they are 1-2 RS below you since they will still melt you, and you might as well not try against those higher RS ones unless you want to be in for a long... long... long fight. But all in all a simple matchup favouring kuno a lot. The losses are mostly due to the surprise element of a witch double TP in and one shot you while you're in mobs or RNG failed grabs/BJ that is insta death for kuno.

    Wiz: 60-80%. refer to witch for the most part. Their insta grab is very helpful to them, for every grab class kuno must be very carefull with her skills as most damage dealers and pretty much all useful awakening moves have long ass skill animations that can get you grabbed.

    warrior: 60/30. Match is very favourable towards kuno, as id imagine is the same for warrior vs everyone. Loss of their retarded SA buff is great, alas PA decided to compensate that with SA on all the wrong skills. Still, War salt is fun. only 2nd to wiz salt.

    Valk: 50-70%. Slightly better position SA wise. Maybe im biased because i always felt the average valk was already a better PvPer than the average warrior, and doubly so for good ones. The valks i fought post 'class balance' fared much better with their changes than warriors. Again, its a waiting game their mobility runs out quick enough, then if you have BJ up you can get them easy enough.

    Musa: 50/50, you need to one combo or he's going to run away. their AOE means you need to be more careful with the engage. If you couldnt one combo them you may as well not even try as they're just going to run away.

    maehwa: 60% easier to CC since their AOE is less so, but again, one combo or just forget it.

    Stroker: you can argue against their differences, but i feel on pretty much all my characters, that fighting against strokers is like fighting a witch/wiz with less SA. Easy to CC and can one combo with same RS, can 2 combo if first fails, 3-4 combo with 1RS difference and they're easier to catch. But they can damage even when 2+ RS below so be very very careful even agaisnt those you know are lower geared. 60% win rate

    Mistake: 50/50. its a long long long fight regardles. You're probably going to barely barely one combo or even have to 2 combo similar geared mistakes. must play very aggressively once their vaccume is up and MUST save BJ for the vaccume otherwise they'll keep healing up. Use every AP buff available in the skill tree for this one. if they're even 1 RS above you, you might as well read a mandarin dictionary cover to cover.

    Zerker: 50/50 really which ever gets the first CC since their grab nerfs. Heals are annoying but can be dealt with. higher RS zerks are an absolute pain because of those heals

    Tamer: um. are tamers really still playing? honestly i cant remember an open world encounter for some time now to give an objective opinion

    Ranger: The opposite of a wizard/witch. not in the good way either. i feel they have to be absolutely great now days to do well in 1v1s, which the average ranger encounter is not. 80% win rate.

    sorc: ugh. i hate sorcs like i hate wasps, extremely annoying to hit and if they get one in you're definitely ending up in the ER. 40-60% win rate. however i feel as a class they have the least disengage from a fight and run away options. you engage a sorc, she's in it to win because there just isnt any 2nd option, that desperation probably does factor into their Iframe playstyle i think.

    Dinky Kong: in a 1v1 she's fairly simple, as simple as BDO pvp ever gets. Just spam SA/Iframe skills with CCs peppered in till she gets hit then anything you throw at her will probably finish her off. She's not the tankyest of classes. If tank is even in their volcabulary.

    lahn: 60%. essentially she's like Kuno, but before kuno got all her attack speed buffs, but with more screenshot epicness and discount pegasusness
     
    Velexia and Kyouki like this.
  9. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    2,239
    Likes Received:
    2,218
    I went ahead and added your post under kuno, for the ranges (number ~ number) I used the middle and for DK and Tamer I put 75% as half between 50 and 100 since you seemed to imply they were easier but didn't give a concrete number.
     
  10. with reasons :D?

    Win/loose

    Ninja 10/90 -> is invisible, oneshots you with grab combo, no Chance to Counter it, if ninja is very good 10/90, I only know very good Ninjas so ofc I got ****ed all time ;), but on spotfights I rape lot of pleb Ninjas too, but at the end a pvp duel with decent Players I would really say a valk does not stand a Chance. Lets assume we do not use the Signal fire to see hidden enemies.

    Kuno 40/60 -> same as ninja but dmg not that insane, chances to not get one shot is less so a Counter is possible to oneshot back, so my Point of view kuno is far behind a ninja.

    Warrior 50/50 -> the one who catches wins first. I know a lot of valks will say warrior is stronger, but in my opinion that is old thinking that is still in our heads from the passt when we have been raped by warriors, but they also got nerfed as hard as a valk so at the end -> the pleb tank that falls down first dies first. Grab of warrior and the resistance piercing is superior then the valks, though I say pvp dmg is higher for valk at the moment, Ultimate excluded. So it will be a Balance of 50/50.

    Mage 75/25 -> my personal feeiling, since the duels I made, BUT to be fair, and because I also know some wombocombo wizards, I would correct it to 50/50 at max, but I would disagree if someone says wizzard is stronger per Default as a Valk :-D

    Witch 95/5 -> she has no grab an can only run and outheal a valk, wins on the longterm because we die of ageing. Else I do not see that a witch stands any chances against a valk.

    Sorc 40/60 -> IFrame, the 40 win is even very very optimistic, a good sorc will be like 10/90 for the sorc because you will not catch her, so from my perspective because I have a lot of crazy sorcs I m a bit used to it already and do not **** up big time, so I see it as 40/60, if you are a rookie valk it will be 1/99 one kill was because the sorc was afk.

    Striker 30/70 -> no Chance to Counter or engage he will grab you drag you through the Arena and whoop our ass with our shield.

    mythic 30/70 --> even worse that strinker but I guess at the end the Odds are 30/70 for both, she will stick up our lancia in our ass.

    lahn 70/30 -> yet not found a decent pvp opponent as a lahn yet, but maybe this is also because the class is pretty new, the only thing is that a lahn can esape a valk 100 out of 100 tries. So if you want to hunt a lahn as a valk on Long term you have never ever a Chance. If a lahn would Play on range and kite the valk mb the chances are higher, but why should I follow if I can stay and heal myself up so basicly, valk wombo Combo > lahn.

    Ranger 40/60 -> I ve met a lot of ranger that do not know their class, they are oneshot and gg, but I also know some that rape my ass, basicly they if they Play on range and poke your shild, softcap is not yet enough to be an evil thread to that, though in Close combat the "grabkick" Combo is enough for one combo and applies faster then my valk cripple grab. So I would say they are stronger

    Dark Knight 80/20 -> has no grab, no Chance to CC a decent valk, no Chance to evade any more since they lost their OP I Frame, sorry for your loss :-(, There are some strong DKs around but we are speaking of same gear vs same gear so.

    Musa 90/10 ->has no grab, no Chance to cc a decent valk, only if I make a mistake I fall, DMG wayyy to less to one Combo with softcap, past softcap I m instant dead, but with 253 ap sorry musa no Chance.

    Maewa 75/25 -> also no grab, but I have the Feeling that maewa scales a bit more with softcap so she can kill a valk, if she gets her cced, but still Shield > Speer.

    Tamer 40/60 -> dmg to high and to fast to catch properly

    Zerker 45/55 -> usually I would say even 25/75, zerker got by Default approx 1k life more and grab Combo -> massive pvp burst and got like 13%? more pvp dmg in one of the past "Balance" patches, this dmg you feel as valk, you get crushed. Self heal is to strong, mobility and range atacks A worthy oponent.
     
    Souda likes this.
  11. Velexia

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2016
    Messages:
    197
    Likes Received:
    184
    Main Lahn (Softcap+ vs Softcap+):
    Ninja - Difficult to grab or CC, if Desynch, may take 2-3 successful CC/Grabs to kill. Die to Ninja in one CC.
    Kunoichi - Difficult to grab or CC, if Desynch, may take 2-3 successful CC/Grabs to kill. Absolutely must bait main Kuno attacks before attempting to fight or you WILL be CC'd and die. 40/60
    Sorceress - Difficult to grab or CC, if Desynch, may take 2-3 successful CC/Grabs to kill. Die to Sorc in one CC.
    Valkyrie - Unknown. Assumed similar to Warrior.
    Warrior - Easy to Grab, difficult to CC, but Very Tanky with comparable mobility, will not die in one Grab+Combo. Die to Warrior in one grab.
    Maewha - Can be chased, can be baited, if Desynch, may take 2-3 successful CC/Grabs to kill. Die to Maehwa in one CC.
    Musa - Similar to Maehwa, if they play agressively, much harder to deal with. They can kill you without CC in 3-4 moves.
    Lahn - Whoever is most skilled/blessed by Desynch gods wins.
    Berserker - Easy to Grab, somewhat hard to CC. Will require 2-3 Grabs to kill. If AP, will kill you in one grab Combo but is then also easier to kill. Decent matchup.
    Dark Knight - Hard to chase, semi-difficult to grab, semi-difficult to CC. One mistake and they 3 shot you on your feet.
    Mystic - Semi-difficult to grab, almost impossible to CC. Takes typically 2 full (long) combos to kill. If you are CC'd expect to be downsmashed multiple times.
    Striker - Can be grabbed often, hard to CC. Takes typically 2 full (long) combos to kill. If hit with an attack slow they won't kill you in one Grab.
    Witch - Must play defensively. Easy to grab. Almost impossible to CC. If you can't kill them in one combo, you won't get a kill. Witch has potential to one shot (1 skill) you after a single CC.
    Wizard - Must play defensively. Easy to grab, difficult to CC. If you can't kill them in one combo, you won't get a kill. If you stay in melee too long you will get grabbed and one shot (1 skill).

    I still need some practice against all classes, but this is my experience so far, can't give accurate W/L ratio. Ninja, Sorc, and Kuno are for sure the hardest for Lahn to fight.
     

Share This Page