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OW PVP from the perspective of a Witch:

Discussion in 'Witch/Wizard' started by Tjaranis, Jul 5, 2019.

  1. Tjaranis

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    OW PVP from the perspective of a Witch:


    1. Every branch, bush, tweak, brucket, stone, etc. is a potential hard CC that not only blocks+wasted your teleport, but get you stuck in a corner without the ability to see or iframe out to a position where the camera isn’t studying your back at 1 cm distance.

    2. MP haven’t been increased since release which means your HP have been increased by a factor of 3 so your mp is now ½-1/3 of what the balance on skills are made for; so after 2-3 exchanges you are out of MP, and your supposed eHP buffer on mana-shield will be eaten at 3 times the balanced pace (it's suicide to use vs. competent players), mp potions are still at 6sec cd while hp potions has been halved; so more issues again.

    3. Every mob is a “catch your skill and help the enemy”.

    4. Every encounter with something fast moving is a Desync gamble of where to throw your skills as the opponent is Never where it should be and ALL your skills is a 2seconds prep for the effect to land, non-awak lightning effects doesn't land if you move the crosshair within the last 0,5-1second of the cast;
    meaning prediction is kind of pointless and you are just swinging and hoping the desync is landing them where you are guessing.

    5. Your block is useless as fast moving classes will go through block because of desync and the system calculating the position before the hit; meaning the system believes the enemy is behind you instead of standing nose to nose with you; so Rng on random CC’s.

    6. Any engage means Teleporting; or you are putting yourself up for a “nice” Rng of grabs and if the RNG (which is min 40%-100% chance of landing, even at 115%+ the grabs are still constantly landing).

    7. Anyone that can block is immune to all CC as they are perma blocked/iframed.

    8. Some of the other classes has Anti-Witch hidden stats, high mitigation to magic, which makes them take Vastly less damage than everyone else, making exchanges even worse than the above would indicated.

    9. Movement is slow-motion and you need 3 movement skills (blub,speed,blackspirit) to move at a pace which isn’t silly slow.

    10. Anyone who disengage is a lost target, if you can’t 100-0% in 2 skills you won’t kill a competent player as they disengage and as stated above; you are snail like slow; so impossible to follow up and should you wasted your teleport you are basically Dead vs. anyone competent as your targeting with tele is depending on whatever latency you got that moment (sometimes you fly 50% further and end past target, on target--->dead vs. anyone competent). So more Rng in a negative direction.

    11. Every class except your opposite genda (wiz) moves further in your 2 seconds cast than your skills can reach.

    12. Your awakening skills got the same range as the majority of other classes and letting anyone get within range to exchange is the Rng grab, the Rng goes through block movement, desync guessing if they are front of behind you and the damage exchange is lost in high AP (as your pet AP is static on a low amount).

    13. You are one-shot/one-chained vs. anything at the wrong side of 250-260ap, even at 390-400dp-> so don’t even wasted time going DP vs. anything competent and geared.

    14. 90%+ of your skills is laughably easy to block/iframe/or straight up just move out of range before they go off (slow cast vs. insane movability).

    15. CC combo’s are iffy as hell an 100% dependent on luck, as all bounds are on “good hits” and over half of them has slower cast time than majority of classes can stand up and do immunity iframes or simply move out of the hit radius. So CC chaining is silly Rng and depends on others CC to land.

    16. You need either awak slow or absorbtion(crazy slow cast with no protection) to land on none block target to stand a chance of fighting, running or just staying in the fight vs. a competent player.

    17. Even stacking 3 slows; chain, absorb, awak slow; will result in an enemy simply able to block and outwait 1 of the slows then be safe to iframe out of your awakening dmg range.

    18. Properly more…



    To mention this is to make it clear how insanely frustrating it is to fight as a witch especially in the OW pvp. The collision boxes allowing hits through block, the collision boxes on stuff like buckets, branches, small stones, bushes, etc. is an absolute plague when you only got 1 movement skill on a 7seconds CD and you got No other iframes to move around with or be safe. The camera looking up your back every time there is anything behind you or looking at tree leaves blocking your view every time there is trees behind you, makes it frustrating and not fun or well designed.

    The lack of range on none-awak skills makes combatting really silly when the max range on first none-awak skills are so low you are basically melee due to the insane movability and desync of most classes. The lack of any protection on the skills exponentially increase this issue. The lack of survivability now that healing has been so extremely nerfed first by insane bracket bonus one-shot gameplay, then by silly “hp locking” which ignores healing (which vastly nerfs witch/wiz by insane amounts compared to any other class) all just accumulated to making it exponentially worse.

    The inability to move at all with Any protection makes manoeuvring a plague and makes all the problems exponentially worse, again.


    The knowledge that witch/wiz already got their major “revamp” is just a laughable joke or a sad depressing feel for anyone who mained wiz/witch, especially those who have put a noteworthy amount of time into grinding SP (which btw has the highest SP cost of Any class to just max out the skills needed for optimal play, at roughly 2500SP, only 250ish from max SP needed to max all skills on all classes; compare to the shai which needs 400ish sp for the none-awak or to most other classes which max out their potential at 1900-2000sp; and the fact softcap hits at 1650, where 1 sp is only rewarded after that; and you can see the ridicules depressing feel from all this “nonsense”) and noteworthy amount of money into it…


    The power creep of newer classes and generally fast classes is becoming ridicules and one-shot combat is heavily feavoring classes which where already designed as a “hit and run” setup, making them more like a guaranteed kill on the hit instead of a skilful combo/chain dependent on re-engaging continually until a 3+ CC combo could be landed (which also means their disengage is screwed as they might straight up die on the engage from the burst, so a failed CC might just mean death; but at least they have the feel that they decided to go in when they did; while being engaged on just feels worse imho as you had little autonomy in the decision).


    All in all, it becomes a very unfun experience EVEN when you are on the winning end.

    We all know this is not going to do anything as devs are not even going to hear anything from the EU/NA players, which just makes it more frustrating and annoying, but well here it is … the thoughts of the experience from a main witch since beta one (with multiple breaks due to the insanely abusive gambling pushed on the enhancement system and the absurd loss of time when failing pens 20+ times in a row…)
     
    #1 Tjaranis, Jul 5, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2019
    Slynx, RustyNail, Loriel and 12 others like this.
  2. Gobarnachta

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    Add in Shai bubble as new "fun" mechanic to block teleporting/ causing shitton desync etc
     
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  3. 2Cents

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    100% accurate.
     
  4. Artorias_Dusk

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    I think they should add more MP recovery to your skills so you don't have to drink that much potions. Never liked that when I played DK.
     
  5. Tjaranis

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    we went from 1200ish hp being around max to now like 4500 being around max while mp moved from 1300ish to 1600ish; a wobbing 3300hp extra and x3 more, with mp only getting 300ish and x1.25 ish
    (around those numbers, cant remember the exact).
    it is save to say that MP needs a serious increase.

    especially when we consider mana shield which is currently taking 3 times the damage to our mp, %, then it is absorbing from our HP.
    using it currently is to avoid the CC, as if you get CC'ed your MP is literally going from 100% to 0% in under 50% of your HP; you have to keep a potion rdy for when you stand up so you can tele and if they hit you or latency or misread makes you use it to early/late/unlucky you got 0 mp to teleport and will be jumping adding another 1,5second CC to yourself before you can even attempt to defend ;)
    -------------

    honestly, I think x3 mp would be perfectly fine =4800mp range.
    it would give a longer buffer before you are forced into using unsafe skills to recharge (instead of literally under 10 seconds before you need to open yourself up for CC before your low on mp, vs. competent players.
    having 30seconds of combat before you empty your resource pool doesn't seem unfair imho.
    also, it would make Mana shield really useful again and actually make it be a "shield" to protect you, resulting in a much higher eHP while the buff is on and making us get One-shotted through everything a bit rarer. who knows maybe DP will even be viable vs. competent players :P

    -----------

    almost forgot to address your main point, sry.
    we already got more than enough mp recovery skills, especially with absorption as bugged as it is (gives you like 250% your mp pool back, 1sec gives you over 100% back; however the slow, the drain etc. is also bugged so it is still worse than if it worked as intended;)
    the main problem is we are defenceless when using it and the range is not even 0,5 sec of the average move distance+attack for all classes.
     
  6. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    well, they could make it absorb same amount of damage for half of the mp drained cost. would be more elegant solution..
     
  7. Tjaranis

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    it would only touch mana shield then, but a good temporary solution on that one although more like 1/3 than 1/2, and does not address any of the other problems with mp not following the increase of hp/other stats.

    i also personally believe that 10seconds combat is too little to run dry, blizzard need 100% mp to even be worth casting as it empties your mp in less than 5seconds, multiple skills depend on MP as they add damage on MP (which currently seems neglectable and pointless),etc.

    the problem is that a lot of things on the wiz/witch was balanced around MP as an eHP buffer and as a Dps-Resource;
    when you cut MP in over half by heavily increasing MP/s usage with awak+ultimate skills, it breaks the balance of the class.
    I think it would be far more inline to simply increase MP overall; it would also make it more ready for the inevitable change to combat from the 1shot stuff we currently got back to pre-awaken, where there was actually a longer fight which swung who had the upper hand multiple times through a battle ^^
     
  8. makis

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    The class is simply mediocre at anything it does. It's not even good at pve, it's not even good at pvp, it's not even good at support since shai
     
  9. Narcosis

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    Class isn't mediocre, game completely lacks any sort of balance and owpvp in it's current state is a broken mess.

    The major problem with witches/wizards is they have too many offensive skills - especially pre-awakening - and completely lack any sort of mobility, that could sustain them in battle. Once you get KD'd, it's over. It doesn't matter they excel in mass battles; they're pushed to secondary or tertiary roles during the conflicts and have to be protected. If someone needs to be protected in pvp, they're useless.
     
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  10. Brawlbuddie

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    Maybe nerf Witchards Damage a bit and give her some more defense skills
    (Infact Witchards need less Ap to do more Damage then other classes maybe that could fix it)
     
  11. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    what people fail to realize is that they actually deal lower dps than other classes. if anything they need more damage or other classes need nerfs. (cryfest would be insane tho)
     
  12. Hekki

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    dps = damage per second.
     
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  14. Narcosis

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    That's true. BDO is all about burst damage with modifiers and KD/stagger or insta-shots due to black spirit rage. It doesn't really matter witches deal massive damage, when you can easily invi-frame out of their attacks, block or use support skills that completely nullify any damage. Once they're out of rotation, they're as good as dead. BDO's combat has been a broken mess since beginning, with exception early days were actually modest in terms of BS players have to cope with nowadays. Combat is TOO FAST, TOO FLASHY and characters move way too fast on screen; it does not give any moment to think or adapt and relies too much on powerful skills that have the capability to insta-kill targets on spot and can be powered to deal even more damage. The modifiers in this game are through the roof on some skills. Add completely broken gear system and you have a recipe for combat that makes players quit.
     
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  15. Icywave

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    PvP in this game was broken the moment they tied stats to it and didn't equalize it.
     
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  16. Noixi

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    I thought for a moment the OP plagiarized one of my VERY VERY OLD posts.
    But then I didn't see my FANBOI Club show up to try and COUNTER WHINEY it down, so I realized it was definitely some one elses post.

    Well the to OP, quote for truth.

    But there is one single thing that would instantly fix it.

    Ranged DPS.

    Yes, that mythical MMORPG aspect that has been missing from blo (downgraded spelling) since AWK came out.

    If we could have everything as-is, but be able to hit things 150+ feet away, almost everything would be closer to No-Disparity.
    Notice I don't use the word "BALANCE", cause frankly, that worse than a 4 letter word.

    We need ranged dps in the HUNDREDs of feet.
    Like the OP said, when any of your 2 second cast spells can get off, the enemy is already WAY beyond max range.

    But, it looks like we'll have to wait for a better game to come out, cause there appears to be no reasoning with blo (downgraded spelling).
     
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  17. Claydough

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    Witch needs just one instant cc aoe

    Because any block class can just walk up to you, block, stop blocking walk up to you and grab you

    They need somthing so that somone even concidering about rushing them and grabbing them should just be instanly picked out and cc’d without any wind up frame
     
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  18. Narcosis

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    Like I said, this game rewards characters with too much movement speed. It's probably the only mmo I've ever seen where classes literally teleport all over the screen - it's how fast they are and/or can be with certain skills. How are people even supposed to aim at them, when it's barely possible to target them? It takes two seconds for a warrior or sorceress to literally "teleport" few hundred meters out of every fight and return if they want to.
     
  19. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    doesnt even have to be aoe. but it should anicancel their skills.


    prolly some really fast skill like aura burn from lineage 2
     
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  20. Tjaranis

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    here is a few things i think would massively help (properly OP if all was done).

    give our dodge SA; this would allow us to reposition "reasonably safely" but still take dmg while doing so.
    or
    give Earth's response SA+allow it to cast from awakening (it's a/d+lmb, sideway jump with a small cone Float cc).
    -
    make protection of crevice give grab immunity: (our Q->block), as we got no grabs, no movability, no protection while using movabilities, etc. it would be fair that we can't be grabbed while doing nothing but blocking (also anyone geared will burn through our block in less than 2 seconds and we eliminated 2 awakening skills when our block is gone; or open up for melee ranged no sa/block skills which always results in death vs. anyone competent).

    make teleport CD 5sec, instead of 7sec (it is roughly 1-2 seconds to slow for most engagements and considering Every fast-moving class can move Futher than double teleport in the same timespand, and can do this repeatedly; it seems to be about time we got a tiny movability boost.

    increase All aoe's by 20-50% aeo range; as everything move so insanely fast, desync is a major enemy; ANY fast moving class zigzagging becomes basically immune to us as any skill you throw will be a miss as desync is far off:
    this would also help the times when you see a person get CC'ed nuke them and Pup they are now 5-7 meters in another direction and completely unharmed.

    make our pet do CC on their OWN; just like the tamer pet will rng CC you right when you got that prefect combo off, it would be incredibly helpfull to have our pet auto CC when we get CC'ed.
    in this manner it would give as a safe in exchange for losing Desync advantage, being static and having extremely low movability; it would also help counter grabs (as our pet could safe us).
    RMB has this function but it is bugged to crap and doesn't work 90% of the time; either because targeting is utter crap, cant target iframed target, can't follow the desync, hits on such a random delay it hits sa/block/iframe, or it does nothing because rng resists, or does nothing because of 5second CC immunity (which btw is an insanely long time vs. something moving 3 screens distance in 2 seconds o.O).

    Make freeze not count towards CC limit: currently, and always, freeze adds an insane Resistance to the target, it is hard to land, provides little protection or none, and it counts as a full 1 towards the limit (it is basically useless and only the die hard "try everything, i WILL find a way to utilize this" people EVER use it... in fact i haven't seen a witch/wizard use freeze successfully in over... well i don't even remember anyone else than me stupid enough to keep trying to utilize it, and honestly ANY other CC is better and hits easier, is more safe and is in the right weapon for protection.
    The DP buff should be appropriated for it to be a "free" CC or better "CC applied in all CC stages, meaning both on down and up target and aired targets alike".

    Fix MP; buff mp to the x2.5+ which hp have been, as currently it is ridiculess how fast mp is burned out and it makes mana shield a reliability as well.

    let us block in none-awak... is there ANY other class in the game that can block in awaken state but not in unawaken?? i don't think there is, which has it's good reason, Every other class just got more of what it had, ONLY the witch/wiz got utterly ****ed and changed it's playstyle so dramatically from non-awak to awaken weapon (it is two utterly and completely different playstyles and focuses; which is why they misfit so much and complete redesign of awaken stated needs to be done... but will never happen; we are Still using the wizard animation set for non-awaken after like 5years of complaining and the asian community being insane about wanting a female "wizard" (which is why the witch exist, the community at released flipped the **** out to such a degree that they made a female wizard copy pasted everything except the model ..... you all know how much it takes to make them just follow the law!... to do such a change/introduction.... yer they flipped out and still no ****ing female animation set, not even a female IDLE! animation for non-awak---- --- --

    back on track;
    All non-awak, non-chain, skills need 50% more range; as mentioned before the speed of classes is insane and it is laugheble that something like lightning doesn't even fire before the target has reached you from max distance, actually most melee classes has CC skills that are faster and reaches further than lightning, firebal, chainlightning, heal, freeze, earthquake.... actually EVERY non-awak skill except followup skills, meteor and blizzard....
    so make all non-awak skills has just the range of 1 seconds movement of the rocket classes.

    make concentrated magic missile x5-8 it's current dmg; it is low range, LONG cast time, slow projectile, hard to land, No protection (no sa/block/iframe), Roots you 0.2+ seconds at endcast and cost as many skillpoints as any of the good skills to max out.
    it is currently utter crap and again ONLY idiots like me who NEED skills to be usefull Ever tries to use it (my god i tried but it is utterly useless in it's current form).

    multiple magic arrows: currently you would only ever see it as a weapon switcher in pvp, unless you use sage thunder which is just straight up better at the same job.
    i feel increasing it's cast time with 0,5 seconds and increasing it's damage by x2 would be reasonable (and still not even touch the output of other classes instant-no sa-no block, skills..

    staff attack, magic missile and aad sphera training need complete revamp... my god are they useless;..
    i suggest a charge up effect; think sorc charge balls;
    staff attack should be completely changed, make it pull the life out off all enemies in a wide cone which recharge hp+mp and looks cool.(little actual effect on most combat but looks cool, but a purpose and could be ok in "ow ****, no mp, super slowed and darn i just want to suicide now" situation where you would EVER use staff attack...)
    Seriously hands up if you EVER used staff attack in a serious fight in the believe it was the better option o.O

    ------------
    so year just the things which popped up while pvping as large problem areas.
    again i think the awakened skills need complete redesign:
    everything ranged and targetable (same as none awak), except maybe 1 longer CC skill (like laying down an earthquake lasting for 3seconds);
    use a lot more channel skills; it is cool as **** to channel Blizzard; it just IS!!!. so could we PLEASE get a lot more of these; channels allow you to make them silly powerful because while channelling you are so extremely vulnerable; so it allows for some really cool looking and feeling skills.

    would like them to Use the 200% rage meteor graphic for something else, give us a new skill to use it; it is so sad the coolest looking skill in the game and it is on my class and i've done it 3 Times TREE! since RELEASE of the game like 3-4 years ago o.O like wtf...
    and back when i did it, it hit like a wet noodle and 2 out of 3 i got random CC'ed as it offered no protection... think it does now but how the hell would i find out... as if there is ever a situation where wasting 3x100rage on one person 1x200%, that requires 2 seconds upstart, and then 8 seconds of people just staying close but not attacking you, would ever happen with the insane speedy/one shot mechanics in now ;P

    well some of my thoughts on it right now.
     
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