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PLEASE Add Trading or P2P Mailing!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by LoonyFoon, Sep 10, 2018.

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Would you be happier or sadder overall if this game added free trading, either by window or by mail?

  1. Happier

    15.0%
  2. Sadder

    30.0%
  3. Happier, and more of my friends would play.

    27.5%
  4. Sadder, and I would honestly quit, I'm not just saying this like people threaten to leave America.

    27.5%
  1. Nystromn

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    personally, i got my dande from grinding karanda.
     
  2. LoonyFoon

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    Thank you for helping me feel a little less alone in a game with too many antisocial trolls who prefer to have big numbers and enjoy sadism than assist new players in having a positive experience.

    I hope a wise developer catches wind of the many legitimate suggestions we've offered in this thread.

    Kakao may have grown fast, but Blizzard is still twice as wealthy. If Kakao wants to move in Blizzard's direction rather than the direction of so many forgotten companies with no faithful playerbase at all, they need to fix the major issues with this game, and trade has to be top three among them.

    (PS, to the dense: The quote just part of a joke, Prime doesn't appear so narcissistic as to say something like that. ;P)

    To Prime and all people who value freedom and charity over this anti-trade fascism: PLEASE share this thread with likeminded people and ask them to vote with us. It is important that we establish a visible majority who want trade to return. If half the potential playerbase has already quit or avoided the game over trade, it would send a very powerful message that the majority of those who remain *STILL* favor free trade. We need to send that message. Thanks for helping.
     
    Prime Vlilijorn likes this.
  3. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Witch 62 NA

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    I would be fine with trading gear under the following conditions:


    1. Only green gear up to tri enhancement can be traded. This would include green elixirs and foods.

    2. Traded items become account bound. They cannot be resold, but they can be moved to an alt.

    3. No silver can be traded.



    I think that will allow us veterans to help a newbie out. The boost would be a nice once but it would prevent any real money trading as the items won’t be end game (eg pen dande where one wouldn’t care too much if it is account bound on trade). But it would also allow us to give a new player a nice head start.


    If trading allowed anything that is top tier or sellable to be traded, I would be absolutely against it. We don’t need more mechanisms for gold selling.
     
  4. mh_

    mh_

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    Newbies need to help them self out.
    If they get carried more at start why should they learn. Why is it a bad ting that when a new player joins the game they can take that first 3 Weeks to get There asula and All green duo or tro gear. Start sine enhancting and life skilling. If you hand your friends your stuff, you denie Them some valuable lessons they need along the way
     
  5. Prime Vlilijorn

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    I'm genuinely curious as to what you consider "valuable lessons" in BDO pertaining to starting out without p2p trade. Typically, when a player is being carried or helped out, they don't miss out on story-lines, advice, or understandings of game economics and general game-play. As far as learning where good grind spots are or item/cash acquisition go, people chug along fine with searching forums and chats questions regardless.

    I'm not certain those suggestions help solve the trading issues that already exist, because it could perpetuate issues that are identical or too similar to what currently exist. I think that promotes more misunderstanding of the reasons behind the current system and might still be too restrictive.

    Also, it should be up to the player, to some degree, on how much they'd like to help/carry. New players/characters, don't typically need much gear, in the way of gaining XP and loot. Its more out of a feeling of defensive necessity and stigmas of noob-ness that many people want better grade gear.

    Many of the trade problems are related more toward lack of immersion and negative interaction. There is a call for more positive player interaction, outside of guilds/clans, but even in regards to guilds/clans.

    Account bound items already cause more commotion and problems with the game. No one, particularly, wants gold selling though(definitely not in the proportions akin to WoW). However, there are plenty of ways they can limit that. Like limiting the grade or item through MP value, and silver amount trade-able per day/week (and per account).

    No no, thank you, for this topic.
    I too hope this issue gets more attention.
    I have noticed the subject of trade is getting more discussion in BDO forums and discord channels. While any newer game company would love to compete with WoW, it isn't going to be feasible until there is quantity of content(obvious), and more importantly... more freedoms, similar or better to what MMO players are used to or crave. While there is much to admire already, mainly graphics, menus, and a handful of mechanics, the arguments concerning MMOs hearken back to the early MUD days. Many of those arguments pertained to quality of graphics vs quality of content. While high-res graphics and complex mechanics are great elements to any game, they can have little to do with actual enjoyment of a game. In the beginning, MMOs offered more social interaction than many other games; which was meant to be positive, rather than alienating.
     
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  6. elephantgrey

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    I would rather they added some kind of guild owned gear that members could take out of guild storage (or a new storage:guild armoury), and then not sell/put in personal storage etc. This gear could be brought either by veteran members out of pocket, or with guild funds by master/leftenants/quartermaster.

    This would achieve what I think most people In favour of P2P trading want, without any possibility of RMT.

    Measures against abuse like 'if a member leaves while possessing guild gear, the guild gear returns to guild Armoury.

    President has already been set by accessories being sold in guild shop.

    I would also ask for this not to be locked behind a guild house (well really, I would ask for instanced guild houses available for all guilds), as this would defeat the purpose.


    Edit: the or just let full P2P trading, so I can run army of accounts working as CP batteries to collect resources for me.
     
  7. Prime Vlilijorn

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    Let me break this down, so that it is a little bit more understandable, for the absolute haters. I'll use hypotheticals (things that can be changed).

    A trade limit, based on Marketplace values (w/o MP trade tax).

    A player can only trade a max MP value of 150million silver, per account, per week.
    (Essentially, that max value, in silver, could be different and the week could be changed to a daily value)

    When a player opens up the trade window they could see their remaining trade balance, as well as the other player's remaining trade balance.

    MAX value limit based on MAX Marketplace value.
    +8 Dandelion Godr Sphera
    [MIN MP Value: 80,027,827 - MAX MP Value: 97,811,789 Silver]
    This would be the min and max values at which it could be sold or traded.

    This allows for someone to trade/buy it cheaper (at any small or large price), but the trade-able value restriction stays the same.
    Example A:
    PLAYER 1 - Current Weekly Trade Balance: 150,000,000 Silver
    Sending
    [Slot 1]-[Quantity 1] +8 Dandelion Godr Sphera...[Value: 97,811,789 Silver]
    [Slot 2]-[Quantity 2] Instant HP Potion (XL).....[Value: 2,250 Silver]
    Receiving
    [Silver]- 1 silver
    PLAYER 1 - Remaining Weekly Trade Balance: 52,183,710 Silver

    Player 2 - Current Weekly Trade Balance: 98,000,000 Silver
    Sending
    [Silver]- 1 silver
    Receiving
    [Slot 1]-[Quantity 1] +8 Dandelion Godr Sphera...[Value: 97,811,789 Silver]
    [Slot 2]-[Quantity 2] Instant HP Potion (XL).....[Value: 2,250 Silver]
    Player 2 - Remaining Weekly Trade Balance: 183,711 Silver

    The trade affects both player-accounts' trade-able balance. No adjustment to the current MP values is necessary. This system would restrict any player from being able to trade anything over the MP value of 150million silver (per week). It could help target player-specific needs/demands. In the above scenario, if Player 1 wishes more silver, they would choose to deny this trade and sell on MP or ask for more silver. All this does is help target a sale, it in no way facilitates a negative impact on the MP.

    Pearl Items can already be gifted, they should also be able to be traded. This would help target specific player demands.
    Example B:
    Player 2 requests, in chat, a [Lahn] Kibelius Classic Outfit Set [MAX 89,610,300 Silver] for 70,000,000silver.
    Player 1 can choose to buy and sell/trade to Player 2 (generosity's sake), bargain with Player 2 for more money, or sell on the MP for full amount.

    This would also create a risk for anyone looking for gold-farmers.
    Example C:
    Player 1 pays $100 to 3rd party online vendor(Player 2), to gain 500million Silver in game. Since the trade limitation is shared account wide, this transaction would take roughly 4 weeks(minimum considering only player 1 transaction). That is a lot of time and trust. This also keeps Player 2 from selling gold to anyone else, if a speedy transaction is necessary. In the case, that Player 2 has multiple accounts, PA/Kakao already made money from the original purchase of accounts (no real loss). PA/Kakao changes their TOS to include more information on non-accountability for 3rd party transactions.

    Example D:
    PA/Kakao could implement a new (maintained) reporting system for gold farming advertised in chat.

    These are just some examples based on minimizing and stopping the problems created by such a restricted trade system. It would promote more frequent and positive player interactions.
     
    #107 Prime Vlilijorn, Oct 9, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2018
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  8. elephantgrey

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    -1, worst of both worlds.
    The problem with silver limits would be that if they are high enough to give a full set of mid tier gear, they would be high enough to trade boss gear. And that would lead to RMT.

    In starting to realise that in only really okay with P2P trading as long as either no real perminant value changes hands, that or i can run multiple accounts at once, then proccess and move all the materials the workers from all accounts onto my main.
    The second one is probably just me being greedy though.
     
  9. Xenosuke

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    I am just going to leave this here since you mention it. I have five accounts, four of which are full of two years worth of event items/silver. The other is my main account. I usually log on to them for events, but not much else. With the amount of silver, sharp/hard shards, Blackstones, a few extra boss armor pieces, and Advice of valks/valks cry across all four of my alt accounts. It's making me second guess being against P2p trading. I have two easily accessible PC's that run BDO and five accounts. Easy money. It is something to think about, but I still stand by my initial statements of we don't need P2P trading.
     
  10. Prime Vlilijorn

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    I did address the multiple accounts issue in those specific examples, but let me clarify. It would not matter how many accounts farmers would have, the other player's account is still affected by the weekly maximum in trade. Which would keep the trade and gold farming paced and to the point of not really being wanted - out of fear, trust, and wait time.
    If Player 1 wants to purchase enough money to buy [PEN] Dandelion Godr Sphera at Max MP: 7,478,459,072 Silver, and the Max Weekly Trade Balance was 150,000,000 Silver, the wait time would be roughly 50 weeks for transfer of total silver. This would be because the Max Weekly Trade Balance is limited by account on both ends. So if Account 1 made purchase and then traded (to receive)150m Silver with Account 2, Account 3 can't trade(to send) with either 1 or 2, because their Max Weekly Trade Balance has reached its limit.
    With that said, the Max Weekly Trade Balance could even be lowered, lets say down to 100m or 75m, since its just an example. That is just in regards to gold farming though. Lets say trade Max was set to 75m value... you wouldn't be able to trade most un-enhanced Boss gear. The majority of Max value on boss gear exceeds the trade limit. Regardless, if anyone had that to sell or just give away, you would see it on the MP anyway.
    For individual profits on a single player's multiple accounts... sure you could farm and send everything to one account, so long as you didnt exceed the weekly limit. Why not? You paid for the accounts and that could just be considered another way of immersion-less, time absorbed, playing. Doing it that way only gains you a profit of the Max Weekly Trade Balance when selling on the MP. The limitations would still prohibit making more money than the Max Weekly Trade Balance. These examples would neither impact nor affect anything(economy, chat, item value, game-play) negatively.
     
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  11. LoonyFoon

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    No, we don't "need" P2P trading, or Black Desert at all. We don't "need" to play video games. We WANT P2P trading because *the freedom to interact charitably within a community of other players* is a huge part of what makes a massively-multiplayer game better (to many people) than a normal multiplayer game with no leveling at all.

    And, YOU, from the sound of it, have less incentive than anyone. You obviously aren't a charitable person because you have TONS of crap and no apparent desire to give it to players who have nothing, and you can already do endgame PvP because you've got great equipment already. Obviously, this thread isn't FOR you. It's for the majority of normal people who DON'T have 4 accounts full of great stuff that they have absolutely no desire to share with other people.

    I'm not for ANY extreme effort to fix MP prices, by the way. I just don't support that kind of fearmongering. THIS IS A VIDEO GAME, PEOPLE. It doesn't really matter if Kzarka sells for 40million or 200million IF THE COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE IS HAVING MORE FUN, as far as I'm concerned. I just want to have fun with my friends, not dominate them with my bigger numbers.

    If you're more worried about price-fixing than the minute-to-minute fun of being in the game, we have fundamentally different ideas about what will make the game better. (Not directed at Prime, who is just trying to accommodate people who are senselessly afraid of changes in the economy of the game).

    RMT is already causing problems everywhere, and the game is already P2W. I've played 350 hours so far. Someone who makes $20 an hour would have made $7000 in that 350 hours, and with that $7000, they could buy THREE characters with near-endgame gear. All three of those characters would be SEVERAL LEVELS and SEVERAL HUNDRED SKILL POINTS ahead of my character, which I "earned" by tolerating the stupid grind of this game. So, obviously, MONEY will get you *much* further faster *IN PRACTICE* than A) GRINDING the game, and DEFINITELY further than B) actually being good at the game in terms of you knowledge and skill with its controls (please note that whether that was the goal or desired reality of the game or not, or built intentionally into it or not, is not relevant to the PRACTICAL REALITY I'm discussing).

    Therefore, THE REALITY of this game is that money can beat grinding, and both beat skill.

    THIS IS NOT DESIRABLE to the vast majority of people OUTSIDE BDO who have not already internalized that this is just how reality is meant to work in BDO.

    Normal players who compare BDO's current state *not to the state of BDO a year ago* but *to the state of OTHER GAMES* are not impressed by marginal moves in the direction of the ACTUALLY ideal state that other games already offer.

    These half-hearted "we'll give you some trade but still not really free it for you" offers are NOT impressing ANYONE who doesn't already have BDO-induced Stockholm Syndrome.

    Allowing trade would ultimately make it MUCH easier for a larger percentage of players to reach endgame faster, and therefore make the game MORE competitive, and more skill-based in the context of PvP, which would make the game far more attractive to normal PvP gamers who haven't imbibed the BDO Koolaid. Outside of a *FEW* whales who apparently live on these forums and will cry sad whale tears if they don't get to keep their stat advantage for years, MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPIER.

    Estimates of BDO's active population are less than 750,000 according to most people who have studied this. They've registered 10million accounts. What should this tell you? Two things: first, the game's arbitrarily fascist restrictions are incentivizing the registration of multiple accounts per actual player; second, MOST people's friends aren't willing to keep playing this game - because only those players who have extraordinary free time and enthusiasm for giving its combat a chance are willing to tolerate the unreasonable grind to get there, so most people's registered friends quit. Also, many registered users who once loved the game have ALREADY quit over the fascism and antifun PvP imbalances that favor trolling over balanced competitions.

    To those readers who are fencesitting, who are not whales that enjoy trolling n00bs, please imagine how much MORE fun BDO would be for MOST people if you actually had *a reasonable chance* to kill *ANYONE* who ganked you in the wild - even if you were level 50. That would be far more COMPETITIVE and fun for ordinary PvP players than the current state of affairs, which enables trolls to one-hit low-level players with absolutely NO risk of a revenge assassination.

    I heard a story about a full-PEN guy *laughing at the weakness of a small group of TRI-TET players* who COULD BARELY DAMAGE THE FULL-PEN PLAYER. That's not fun for anyone but full-PEN TROLLS (not to be confused with a real player who likes a challenge, mind you) as a gameplay mechanic. It's FUNNY as an anecdote, but it's not LONGTERM FUN to make the game work that way. It's making the game "better" ONLY for a TINY MINORITY of the playerbase. Full-PEN PLAYERS (who have skills, and should not to be confused with Full-PEN TROLLS) either use that PEN to hunt trolls, or choose to wear worse gear in order to have a balanced, fun, challenging fight with normal players.

    In this way, the game's competitive balance has already been RUINED by many decisions that have nothing to do with trade. Until they fix those, they have NO legitimate justification for banning trade that resonates with normal players who neither LIVE nor WANT TO LIVE on an MMO.

    If you design mechanics that INCENTIVIZE people to live on a game and just sell its silver to players for real currency, *those mechanics are the problem* - not the fact that players are going to be predictably human and try to make money through those mechanics.

    As I said earlier, people ALREADY sell silver and characters (very affordably, compared to the cost of the grind), so the game is ALREADY P2W, and gold farmers are ALREADY banking.

    If you wanna stop that, please use your words to help the community fix the PvP imbalance instead of adopting a fascist policy that drives away all kinds of normal players who enjoy things like balanced PvP, giving stuff to friends, and oh yeah *NOT LIVING ON A VIDEO GAME IN ORDER TO COMPETE*.

    The people who want to ban everything BUT the P2W in order to stop P2W cannot be trusted to help us, and should not be taken too seriously. The majority of people who are actually playing BDO want more freedom than the forum population implies - ask around and discover for yourself if you don't believe me. Hardcore troll vets like to spend time here more than normal players, on average. If you're on our side, please bring *normal* people to this poll and help show the devs the true population of players who value freedom.

    Good luck, guys.
     
    #111 LoonyFoon, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
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  12. Ladzimesh

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    ^^^This is nearly a perfect idea. I'm noticing that I am really getting into your ideas lately. We've practically been on same page. Only I think you articulate and break these ideas down better ;) So far this is the best solution I've read for P2P trade. I'm sure it needs a little more work, but I am completely down with your idea of a 150million silver weekly trade balance for each account. I think what your getting at is that the Trade Balance reflects the actual amount traded and not the value of the objects. That way the traders can negotiate price of items that fall within the trade balance. I think I read all that correctly. Seems fair. This also seems to keep people from trading really high priced items and seems to practically eliminate RMT and gold farming. WHY IS THIS NOT BEING DONE?!?!
     
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  13. Prime Vlilijorn

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    That is pretty much what I am getting at. I'm totally open to more suggestions on that idea. I think more and more of us are coming to the same conclusions though. With any luck a more open trade system will get consideration and may eventually help this game live up to its potential.
     
  14. LoonyFoon

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    Because too many players irrationally fear that any amount of free trade will inevitably break the economy, despite having no idea how a video-game economy actually works, and those players are defending the devs from the rest of us.

    Or, because no matter how many people make great suggestions, the developers won't care, because they're already moving on to making their next *two* MMORPGs, and this game only exists to squeeze profit out of the whales in the game.

    I'm not sure anymore.
     
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  15. Ladzimesh

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    This just seem too logical to ignore. I mean is BDO not meant to be the future of MMORPGs? I think the irrational fears are a huge problem in these forums. I mean, I get it, people fear the impacts of change. But this game does have more potential. I don't see how opening trade, with some restrictions, will ruin a game.
     
  16. LoonyFoon

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    What's not to get? The prices of items.. they might... uh... change... and... uh... so... that would ruin the game. Right? ;P
     
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  17. Prime Vlilijorn

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    It wouldn't if people worked together to help find solutions. My examples are based off of other games and other players suggestions and concerns. I'm trying to help build a solution, rather than attack/defend people/ideas. We need more of that. I guess that is just a hard conclusion to come to.
     
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  18. Prime Vlilijorn

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    I'm not sure the MP values would have to change. Just another valuing system. "Trade Balances" would offer things to certain individuals that are being traded with, maybe cheaper, but not necessarily. And it wouldn't affect normal MP prices or availability... people can still like making money while also helping others or being social. But even if a change in value was necessary, it wouldn't have to be much. But I just don't see it being necessary.
     
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  19. Violor

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    I certainly didn't read everyone's comments and don't intend to (no enough time), but I absolutely voted YES and that more friends would play.

    PA/Kakao - One or both of them is extremely scared by trading. And there are some legitimate reasons and some non-legit reasons.

    Legit - Gold Farmers
    Problem - This exists as mentioned before in massive guild payouts

    Legit - Crash the marketplace
    Problem - They actually made this problem themselves by instituting the tax system on our items. Remove the tax and make certain things untradable and then you're just as likely to trade as you are to use the MP. Also put in a min/max trade value for items just like the MP.

    Non-Legit - Protecting the integrity of the game
    Problem - They're not! They're simply monopolizing who gets to P2W their player base (hint: it is themselves)

    Non-Legit - Making unfair advantages
    Problem - This already exists! You have extra money to spend and want millions immediately! Ok sell Pearl items for Silver!!! This also refers back to ensuring their monopoly.

    It really all boils down to monopolizing the player base. When players CANNOT trade freely then the producer immediately has the advantage. This is a lot like a casino, the house always wins!

    Now they just did a survey about a new marketplace. In it they asked a bunch of questions and some focused on the DUMB tax the system charges now. If they institute a new MP with NO TAX (which why is there a tax it literally is just taking money out of the in game economy not like they use it to build a shiny new road from Calpheon to Altinova with gold bricks) then now we're kind of getting to a "open/free trade" like system. There certianly needs to be a better and more aggressive way to make the MP work for everyone. The timing to get an item, pre-orders, botters, etc are all issues that need resolving. But of course resolving some issue would cut down on purchases of maid (in PA/Kakao's eyes). We all know these pains.... item up... set timer...... swap toons..... miss item because you missed the "purchase via pre-order" text and now you stare blankly at the screen for 5 minutes in disbelief..... go back to main..... grind spot now lost.

    So to all you voting NO! Down with free trade!!!! I hate noobs!!! And they shouldn't get anything because I got nothing!!!! GET OVER YOURSELVES. 1 in 1000 noobs will be given a free bit of boss gear, and that will be between super close people (couples, family members, etc). In no way will player-2-player trading have any bad effect on your gaming experience. "Oh no! Timmy was given a set of +10-15 Heve gear! Fudge that guy! Can't believe BigBillyBadAzz would give Timmy a free set of gear! I mean common I got to lvl 60 and no one helped me!!!!" At worst some noobs get extra gear at best more noobs keep playing because we all help them get past the cancer of upgrading gear. OH NO! The player base is increasing!!!!! (which right now it is going down and I for one believe trading would help to right this issue)

    People need to understand no matter what system is in place someone will always try and twist and manipulate the system for their personal advantage. We've seen it in everything and the number of bots and the like are proof that they're here in BDO and never leaving.
     
    #119 Violor, Oct 10, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2018
  20. Starseeker

    Starseeker Mystic 58 NA

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    Honestly, it is frustrating to play with my husband, and not be able to trade things to him or vice versa. Example: the horse event that just ended, he has no interest in T9 horses, but he got a ton of mats from grinding. He couldn't trade them to me (who has been attempting to get a T9) because of the locked P2P trade. I understand the arguments against trading and the ones for it.

    My Idea:
    Most MMOs I've played sometimes will allow two characters to be linked some how to get benefits...ESO has the ring of mara, two characters exchange vows get a ring that gives them a bonus to XP while they wear it. Why not sell a cash shop item that allows you to do the same? Limit it to 1 per week, or 5 per account or something. Let me link my account to another players so we can trade with eachother.

    Make it so you can only trade items (not silver), and once the item is traded it's locked just like the pots and food you trade now. You can't resell even to a merchant, you can only use them for their intended purpose (life skilling, gear etc).
     

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