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Please tone down the Knockdown / Bound resistance values on Crystals.

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Despins, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. thdsm

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    Stealth engages are completely unrelated to this discussion, and fyi resist stacking doesn't solve that problem anyway, because ninjas don't engage with kd/bound skills from stealth, but with stiffs or floats.

    On the other hand, if you have issues with stuff like "invisible" sorcs catching you out, then it's just a git gud issue.
     
  2. Gobarnachta

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    In my opinion it is no-brain play to assume if you hit perfectly the same combos you always win so I have to disagree with OP as well.

    We don't need more iframing glass-cannons doing even more CCs.. what we need is more counters to CCs than just V escape. Some classes can jump up from a kd fast this could be given to other classes too.


    With state of our servers having the desynch sorcs invisibility can last annoyingly long.. obviously it is not true stealth like ninja/kuno but then again sorc more than makes up for it with the i-frames which again desynch only pushes further for you. What I think Atomic was trying to say was either from stealth or from iframe, the engages are as annoying.

    Overall I think it is not resists that needs nerfing but i-frames, those are the only old meta thing that didn't get any nerfs as is obvious with how op Ninja/Kuno/Sorc are at the moment.
     
  3. thdsm

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    I-frames are one of the last ways to outplay overgeared whale trash, so please no. If you want nerfs to CC or i-frames, you either one of those who wants pvp to be all about comparing numbers ("I have 8 AP more so I win git gud lolxD") or an ape who doesn't understand what effects certain aspects of the gameplay have. In case of the latter, it's time to learn that i-frames and reliable CC is good, because it allows skill to shine.
     
  4. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    so... lets put more of those antiwhale skills on other classes than as well?
     
  5. thdsm

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    You are close to turning this into a class balance discussion, and from an angle that is pretty much irrelevant in the context of this thread. Don't.
     
  6. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    tone down the Knockdown / Bound resistance values on Crystals.

    120% sure are one of those stunlocker players who think that smashing 1 button untill you enemy die is definition of a skill
     
  7. Gobarnachta

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    WhySoSeeryus actually said the important thing there.. if such skills are there for skilled play then every class should have iframes similar to sorc/ninja/kuno... only reason you are declining to continue that line of thought is because you know if every class got those then next to nobody would be ever dying as people just iframe and stealth/run away unless they get upperhand while still having iframe ie. that 1 cc that lands.

    I-frames should be nerfed as everything else has, one option could be that all the BSR skills go through them in say 50% dmg/has slight chance of CCing you out of iframe. Iframe currently is a "godmode" that some classes can go into and always know they are 100% safe..and it most definetly is NOT skilled play. So either give similar thing to other classes (in as plenty as sorc has) or do the better option and nerf it (make it last alot less and have cd that you can iframe only once every 15 sec and other times it does SA or the BSR option).
     
    #87 Gobarnachta, Oct 23, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
    Kurano and Rayin like this.
  8. thdsm

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    Do you even attempt to understand what you're reading? His point was that wizards should have comparable iframes to classes such as sorc, which has zero to do with kd crystals.
     
  9. Gobarnachta

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  10. thdsm

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    I guess we are derailing after all. Look the only reason I'm declining to continue that line of thought is because it is utterly nonsensical, since if wizard had same iframes as for example sorc or ninja, why would anyone in their right mind ever play sorc or ninja? Yeah, such abilities are for skilled play, and they are put on certain classes whose kit is tailored to reward skilled play. If you were to put them on all classes, you'd have to normalize the rest of their kit as well, which would make lots of classes redundant. Why would you need 16 classes all of which play similarly?

    What we have now is variety of classes for different playstyles, and it is not the fault of game designers or ninja players that some random guy chooses a wrong class for them. You don't play wizard because you want to do high-speed mechanically intensive outplays. If someone wants that, it is very easy to level an alt, because contrary to the popular belief, it doesn't really cost anything except a little bit of silver.

    Yeah, let's turn the game even more into a mindless exchange of aoe damage skills, where only gear numbers matter. Oh and grabs would be even more important than now. And additionally, if you ever tried sorc, you'd know that they probably spend only about 30% of the time in iframe not counting actual attack skills, the rest is either fg, sa or unprotected.
     
  11. Rayin

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    That's something false since Dragon Nest had the lowest amount of i-frames in every MMORPG and has one of the most skilled gameplay you'll be able to find, with a lot of different toolkits, even more than BDO.
    SoftBan matches were an example, but even in actual 1 vs 1 you could win against any class playing any class, in BDO you can't unless you use that only SA/Protected CC to trade tha maximum amount of damage with your opponent, but we're talking of 270+ AP scenario.

     
  12. thdsm

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    This is off the point though as that is a completely different game with different fundamentals and mechanics. We are not discussing a complete rework of BDO gameplay. Imagine if we just gave wizards sorc's night crow and shadow leap, why would you play sorc instead of that class?

    Sure, if a complete rework was done which would include the rework of the gearing system and hp recovering and so on, then sure, everyone is open for discussion, but this is fairy tale territory and is outside the scope of this thread by quite a bit.
     
  13. Despins

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    My point is simply that knockdown and bound resistances are too easily acquired, and the options to counter that are outdated.

    Also, I believe I should really start recording what is done when I play my 1v1 as Witch. Because it's abominable and the only reason Strikers win is because they resisted my Bound CC. I also die guarantee from a grab when the CC is resisted when they are CCed already.

    Pet Stiffness -> Freeze -> Voltaic Pulse Bound (resisted) -> Grabbed - > Dead

    Strikers have absolutely no issue hitting those combo all the time since their stuff do not seem to get resisted. Or at least, the resists are not this dangerous.

    And if myself wish to fight against their grab, it will involves GREAT sacrifice in my case. Sacrifice that I am on the way to do with my freshly acquired PEN Red Coral Earring to allow me to remove some Jin Vipers and get 10% Grab resist. 10%; not a cheap 25% knockdown resist for the price of 2 movement speed. We're talking about 9 billion investments in the accessory to then reroll a super precious gem into a weak-gimmicky grapple resist crystal.
     
  14. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    I never said THAT.
     
  15. Rayin

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    You're going from an extreme to another, so if someone asks for more i-frames on certain classes it means that everyone must get what others have? and they're right to point out that since i-frames are for "skilled gameplay" then every class should have them.

    They are not, they are a defensive tool, as much as SA and FG are. That's it. Why Sorc were struggling with Warriors back then and now is the other way around x5 worse? because LSA + grab and no AP Bracket Bonus to pierce FG/Blocks + Grave Digging that had a CC on every hit + SA was a gamebreaker for Sorc I-frames and inability to engage properly.

    Now without protections, certain classes can't engage nor disengage. Sorc can more than Ninja & Kuno, but those two can too due to Oni-shadow + Concealment fix, as back then would just make you semi-transparent and pop your HP bar on top of your head.
    I-frames have nothing to do with skilled gameplay, as much as a Wizard with Sorc's i-frames wouldn't be a way to balance the class, it'd just be another silly creature teleporting around to wreck havoc even more than they currently do.
    Wizard should get a small buff in term of lateral/close ranged-mobility to make it less clunky, at the cost of one tweak or two to its toolkits. But that's it, i don't think that anybody is saying "Give everything to everyone without changing anything", that's your own way to see the entire matter.
     
  16. thdsm

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    I'm certainly not going to any extremes on my own, since I was referring to what Gobarnachta was saying, namely that "every class should have iframes similar to sorc/ninja/kuno". Perhaps you should've read those posts before inserting yourself into our conversation.

    I disagree with this. Not every class needs to be made for skillful gameplay, at least not in the same way, and you'll find that in most successful games this is indeed the case. Class variety is supposed to accommodate for different gameplay preferences and amounts of talent from the players. Some classes are more dependent on mechanical execution, while others need good positioning and timing. There is enough info about which class does what, so making a wrong pick is not an excuse.

    Before the CC and SA rework the game was a lot more match-up dependent in general, and certain match-ups were just terrible. Sorc vs warriors wasn't even close to being the worst of them, but now imagine a sorc whose movement would be only SA back then, against a competent warrior they would last about 3 seconds. There's a lot of QQ going around about current class balance, but fact is that in 1v1/small scale (which is what this thread mainly concerns) it is much better now that it used to be, and the vast majority of the complaints are just git gud issues.

    If you read the post I was responding to, it was pretty much exactly what they were saying. And my point is precisely that you can't do that without changing anything, but additionally, that such changes to the current BDO, without reworking the fundamentals would mean that most classes end up having very similar kits.
     
  17. Columba

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    Losing control of your character simply isn’t fun. It’s annoying. We need better resists, not less.
     
  18. thdsm

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    If you know how to play, you don't lose control of your character very often. Git gud. Why should bad play not be punished? It being bad is not fun, then git gud. The solution is in your hands.
     
  19. Rayin

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    I read very well the argument and while Gobar called an extreme, you're basing your whole argument on that, going on the other logic fallacy that "i-frames" are for skilled gameplay which i already proved that they are not.
    Skilled gameplay is skilled gameplay, skilled players win others don't in an environment where the classes are balanced. If they are not, then even unexperienced players and unskilled players can win against skilled or experienced ones, gaining some superficial knowledge of the basic counter measures.
    Which once again, in DN could happen with Obscuria/Dark Summoner/Soul Eater/Inquisitor, but SB matches would even those differences.
    And even then, classes were more balanced than in BDO.

    So a year of Sorc and Ninja complaints asking for more SA when Warrior/Valks were dominating before Mystic arrival just picked the wrong class and were looking at every issue from a wrong perspective? because i can find you dozen of threads with Sorc asking for SA removal on those classes or more SA for them.
    Roles in this game do not exist, there are toolkits that based on the meta shift are more clear and some that ain't.
    Warriors & Valks were meatshields to defend you from attacks before no-collision/shittons of aoe were a thing, then they became Gods and now they aren't even meatshields anymore, just passengers tied up outside of a wagon on a never-ending wreck-train.

    Yeah, nice argument, i can say that "everyone is shìt but me" too and tell that i'm at work/from phone if someone challenges me, no problem.
    "Git gud" issues exist when the wrong knowledge is shown, which this is the case.
    Try a match-up Sorc Vs Warrior with the similar gear, a Sorc will win against a competent Warrior 8 times out of 10, because she's too hard to CC for Warrior that lost a lot of its CC potential with the removal of multiple CC from Grave/Bound on Slashing, while a Sorc still has easier time to dish off her CC on that class because blocks last even less than in past due the extra AP provided by Renown/AP Bonus and he lost LSA and most of SA.
    You can't CC what you can't catch.
    The only way to catch a Sorc as War is with a grab during her backflip since now it's SA (requires effects to be activated to be see where a Sorc TP's), during GRJ execution if you're fast enough to either grab her while she's charging the attack or at the end of it if you have a protected CC, which you obviously don't exception made for Shield Charge or Chopping kick, that would lead you to die or being CC'ed.

    Come again, tell me what kind of git gud issues people have if for a Sorc with the current meta there are many ways to avoid CC while others have 1 or 2. It's the same a Mystic, everyone that is in a good spot thinks that others are complaining unfairly, which Sorc did even during pre-awakening times with DF, saying that the skill wasn't OP but others weren't good players.

    Again, you're talking about i-frames as skilled gameplay, which they ain't, refer to my first paragraph. If someone does a wrong example, it doesn't mean automatically that your argument is good to begin with.
     
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  20. thdsm

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    First of all, I didn't make any argument, I just responded to a specific thing, and you jumped on it for some reason. Second, try to express yourself more correctly, as ""i-frames" are for skilled gameplay" is not a logical fallacy, it is a statement, and one that I didn't even make in that manner, because what I said was that iframes allow skillful gameplay specifically in BDO in its current state. You understand now how showing videos from some other random irrelevant games is not proving anything?

    In a game with different classes there will always be slight advantages in certain match-ups. The idea is that these gaps would not be too large and that classes would not only have strengths or weaknesses, but a fair share of both.

    You misunderstood my point. I didn't say it is alright for some classes to be garbage (even though sorc and ninja never were), but more that it is completely fine if classes scale differently with player's skill. Some can be effective with less effort, while others require more finesse to get something out of. However for balancing purposes the former should preferably not become very strong with high skill, otherwise the class will become too popular. Then there's the choice of play style, either mechanically intensive or slower and position-based. So this has nothing to do with people asking for more SA or whatever, but more a situation where a guy wants to do duels where he dashes around and uses lots of combos and ani-cancels, and for that he picks wizard, because...?

    You literally just described how to win that fight in your second paragraph. Warriors have one of the fastest grab engages, and since sorcs spend far less time in iframe than most people think, you can find the right moment to grab them. I play Lahn right now and if I fight a sorc and can't cc them with some protected cc skills, I just wait until they commit to anything that isn't an iframe and grab them out of that. Warriors can do it even better. Watch some streamers who have their mechanics down like McHands, they don't seem to be struggling so much.

    Sorcs also don't have grabs, so they need something to compensate for that.

    Iframes are not gameplay, they are a feature of the game that in the current version of BDO does a lot to reward skillful gameplay. Just removing them would move the game even more in the direction of a brainless gear score measuring, while blindly giving them out to every class without reworking the fundamentals will create a balancing mess worse than this game has ever seen before. Neither has much to do with the subject of this thread.
     
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