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Please tone down the Knockdown / Bound resistance values on Crystals.

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Despins, Oct 22, 2018.

  1. Columba

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    Says you. Most of the rest of the players hate these cheesy mechanics. How about you “git gud” and learn to live without cheesy mechanics?
     
  2. thdsm

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    These "cheesy mechanics" just happen to be a fundamental part of many fighting games and have always been at the core of BDO. Now why are you playing this game again? It's like if you visited a restaurant and told the cook: "This would be a really nice soup but it sucks that it's all liquid like that, it should be more solid like a steak instead".
     
    Otrsor likes this.
  3. Columba

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    Lol, lots of crap are considered “fundamental.”
     
  4. thdsm

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    So why are you here again if you don't like the fundamentals of the game?
     
  5. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    sorry for offtopic, but this change could be easy and probably done in a second. there are already skills called Magical Evasion and its awakened version. add protection on those on some cd, no protection off cd. they might make it so that those can cancel some skills. as for trade off, we all know what needs to be done. PA stacking needs to go (damn, it should go either way). some sort of debuff needs to be applied to the player receiving PA effect that prevents him to get another PA from any source for xy seconds.
     
  6. Columba

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    They aren’t MY fundamentals ! Hahahaha
     
  7. Despins

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    I believe I had described a situation where I am losing control. But I am the one who CCed the target, not the other way around. I have no safety or control over what happens next. A CCed Striker is probably more dangerous because of resists.

    It's fairer to guarantee at least a semblance of stability when it comes to chaining a combo, and I'm talking about basic combo without dowsmashes.

    What is fair is the state where no targets are CCed yet, then it becomes unbalanced when both players act differently when CCed. Classes that rely on Bound suffer from abnormally high resistances against them, slow classes that only have 1 chance of cc during the cc time, classes with arbitrary high CC coefficients on their good skills, classes that are unaffected by the 30% downsmash chances.

    We work in a flawed system, and resistances are easily skipped by a few privileged classes. So I believe that it is wrong to advocate for easily acquired resistances since they are advantageous to a few select classes.
     
  8. Valient

    Valient Ninja 60 EU

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    ofc i would agree to that, but wouldnt you say pa and magic shield kinda give you that choice as well?
     
  9. Otrsor

    Otrsor Sorceress 63 EU

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    THIS

    I agree with the idea on the change in the gameplay of wiz/witches, but the PA is so core to the large scale of this game nowadays that i dont feel its a good idea to change it, engages are about baiting PAs, moving out or in them, counting the CDs timers, engaging before PAs can be cast and **** like that (for example if you can tell their first PA rotation wiztards are CCed by a zerk you call for a fast engage).. thats how pvp works in nodes at least, changing it is a scary though (not gonna say its bad or good but its scary)

    As a trade off simply a HIGH (to the point of max 2 or 3 uses on a full protected rotation) stamina cost on the off CD side dash (considering it could free you out of animation locks and had iframe, keep in mind the idea is a get out skil not an anicancel, if you would use it to get out of the start of the cast of a skill the skill would do nothing) and no stamina regen while on SAs, more than a trade off its a limitation but you get the idea, just as a counter to braindead grab smashers.

    @Despins -->Ignore Columba<-- and make yourself a favor, he is a really old troll of this forums, Kakao even gave us this link so everyone can ignore him.
     
    #109 Otrsor, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  10. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    removal or change of PA would finally show what shietshow their ap scaling is. then they would be forced to tweak it at least. not every class should be a nuker.
     
  11. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    you are aware of cooldowns and other things like - in this crazy dmg environment, sometimes using magical shield actually gets you killed as you dont even have mp for teleport. (would be way better if it didnt soak up dmg, but only give resistance buff)
     
  12. Rayin

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    It does, that's skilled gameplay, BDO had some skilled gameplay before. Now it's trash.
    And i-frames do not allow anything once again, you're just blowing wind on your windmill. I play War/Ninja/Striker/Wiz and it's ridicolous how Ninja became stronger than War exactly because he lost very little compared to this one. Warrior is currently not even the shadow of its former self, but the poop of its shadow.
    Striker is one of the top character, but beside the absurd damage, it's overall "balanced".
    Wizard is crap in 1 vs 1, but still much better than before.
    Yet i don't feel that Ninja has a more skilled gameplay, in past yeah as in the Kingdom of multi-hit CC on every skill and Perma SA sliding across the battlefield with those miserable i-frames it was really an epic achievement if we want to calculate also deysnc, right now instead - with the current meta - i believe that playing successfully with Warrior in mass is what you can call skilled. Unless you have 273 AP like Mukux and you want to play the 100% game, pressi esc>escape in RBF to wait there to have your 100% ready or sitting in base.

    That's why Ninja now is considered braindead by who doesn't play it and has no knowledge, it's because they don't know that his actual i-frames ain't long and in past weren't so good whereas you had to avoid multiple CC delivered by multiple hits of multiple skills, now that most of those long CC's chained in one skill are gone even a Ninja with his short i-frames can dodge the attacks of other players efficiently. Especially because most of classes have lost CC on their main damaging skills and those are now used only in combo, not out of nowhere like before.

    Grave Digging by wars can be used only as protection or as finisher with a CC'ed target. The times where we were grounding everyone around us while being protected are gone and this doesn't have nothing to do with LSA, mind you.

    Agreed, that's why we need to have a rounded balance.

    I-frames doesn't mean dashing around, but i get better your point. Problem is that Wizard shouldn't be like that for other reasons that isn't class diversity, as it'd be even normal to see a Wizard TP'ing around.
    A Warrior would be weird instead.

    We don't have LSA anymore, that's why we could grab engage effectively, now is suicidal especially against Sorc.
    Against similar gearscores and at high AP brackets you can trade damage knowing some skills of the opponent, that's a partial way to win against a class that has better times than you, but it's not the perfect solution since who has the most i-frames in this way has easier time to pick the right moment to trade and deal damage.
    Also you can't really compared War grab engage with Lahn. Lahn has a bigger straight hitbox, so is easier to pick a target like Sorc. War has a better unprotected "burst" mobility to compensate for the almost-T-Rex-alike-grab-like-Valks-hug-known-as-grab, so grab engaging a Sorc means that you want to die and fail your grab unless it's a 1 vs X scenario and that Sorc is unexperienced.
    We don't have SA on grab motion like Mystic, Striker or Ninja, some classes can be CC'ed when they perform a grab.

    Yeah, but in the current meta Sorc has microscopic openings and grabs have lost some of their appeal compared to before during the SA era, so i'd say that she shouldn't compensate so much, same goes for Ninja.

    Hey if you want to repeat that mantra to yourself because else your whole preview would collapse like a Castle made out of poker cards, be my guest, i just shown you a game that is x10 times more skilled than BDO ever was and will ever be and i-frames there have a global cooldown.
    There are classes that have 1 more, but they either compensate with stronger SA and SAb skills or with skills that move them further from an opponent, which is a huge QoL since the hitboxes there are surgical, which means that you can walk away from an attack even by a millimiter.

    I mean, yeah, i-frames are for skillful gameplay. They do not negate any sort of damage in a meta where even the weakest attack of someone with a shìtton of AP can wreck you and therefore they should be toned down or else some classes should receive a slice of this cake, they reward skilled players for having picked up a skilled class that can express at the full potential the mad skillZ of skilled players, doesn't matter if different meta dictate different changes and produce different outcomes.
     
    #112 Rayin, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  13. Valient

    Valient Ninja 60 EU

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    cds equally apply to other classes as well however i cant really give an opinion on a magic shield change, in the middle of a large fight, when you run out of mana, does the dmg reduction still apply? if not then its basically just a skill which uses all your mana for resistances.
     
  14. 920

    920 Ninetwenty Tamer 62 EU

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    TL DR

    Everyone argues the resistance are fine because they are content in their mediocrity, so they require to be carried by yet another RNG aspect.

    How about you nerds start actually getting good at the game so you dont put yourselves in positions where you will get cced in the first place? But then again , 90% of the people are probably complaining because they get PA walk in , get cced and then die because lemmings.

    In my opinion adding a RNG aspect to the gameplay which is as impactfull as resistances caters only to noobs and heavily reduces the already super low impact that decision making and correct gameplay provide.
     
    #114 920, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  15. MADE

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    Why is it resistance chance rather than duration reduction in the first place? If it would be just simply a reduced duration stat, then it wouldn't be RNG.
     
  16. Escapism

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    Having a really good laugh there mate, thanks a lot.

    You must not have played any other mmo in existence at all. "Variety of classes for different playstyles"... If you compare bdo to an arcade fighting game then yes maybe. They all have some different combos and different/strong cc's, different bursts & nukes, different movement abilities and... yeah thats it.

    Do you know what different playstyles with different classes and builds with actual variety looks like? Take a look at f.e. PoE, Diablo 2/3, Guild Wars 1, or take a look at any older mmorpgs (western ones), where you have classes which literally cant do any viable dmg at all but are just healers/supporters/buffers/tanks, or which can only do damage through dots, or classes which dont do any dmg themselves but instead summon massive pet armies to do everything for them, or even classes/builds that mainly deal dmg by reflecting opponents dmg back... The possibilities and the imagination here are ENDLESS.

    What do we have in bdo? ~12-13 assassin-type classes, quick mobility, massive burst dmg, oneshotting & one-comboing everything, quick-in-quick-out, die within seconds if caught offguard. and ~3-4 "bruiser/fighter" type classes, exactly the same as above but slightly less mobility and slightly better survival (depending on their build). How do any of these 16 classes play differently? They all sprint/dash/jump/teleport from pack to pack, oneshotting those packs with 1-3 skills, repeat. In pvp they all dash/jump/dodge/block around waiting for an opponents mistake, then nuke him in 1 massive cc-combo, with little random outcomes based on misses/resists.

    The only different playstyles in bdo are "grinding", "active lifeskilling", and "afk". If you think bdo has class variety and the classes had different playstyles, you should never play any other mmo or rpg ever, you would be totally overwhelmed and get your mind blown out. Hint: there are actually classes or builds in some other games which dont even have any movement skills or even any ccs (rarely).



    And to answer your question, why we need 16 "same, but different" classes? Its blatanly obvious to sell 16x the amounts of costumes, weapon exchange coupons and inventory & weight upgrades. Just look at gender-swapped versions of the same classes, and remember that some of those existed long before awakenings, when they were actually 98% identical, "variety" my a$$.
     
  17. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    what exactly do u think happens to a character that cant use any skills in mass pvp and is getting attacked? do resistances even matter then?
     
    #117 WhySoSeeryus, Oct 24, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2018
  18. thdsm

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    You really should work a bit on catching on to the gist of the arguments people are making. While not true for everyone, at least the way my posts are formulated is not accidental and every word is there for a reason. For example there is a significant difference between allowing skilled play and requiring it, think on that. A lot of space would be saved if I didn't have to rewrite the same point in different ways over and over.

    Also the reason ninja is strong right now is not because he has iframes, but more because he has a now rare combination of high damage, protected cc, good mobility, grabs and a useful class gimmick. Prior to the combat rework this was not unusual, plus multihit cc made it harder for him to avoid it, which is much less of an issue now.

    I haven't mentioned iframes at all in that paragraph. That said, the most effective iframes are those which are combined with mobility. Anyway, the point was that if someone feels that wizard gameplay is deficient for them, it would be easier for everyone if they changed class instead of demanding to rework the class itself.

    I disagree, if you play sorc you will see that they actually have plenty of openings, also grabs are not losing any appeal as long as classes that can permarotate SA exist.

    Bringing up other irrelevant games to prove something is retarded and you know it. Whenever someone says something along the lines of "look at game x, it's 10 times more skilled because it has (or doesn't have) this feature" I'm fully confident that they don't have any idea about how to objectively evaluate how skill dependent a game is and I doubt you've given that much thought either (hint, it has nothing to do with technicalities such as hitbox sizes and whatnot). Now, you even go ahead and explain why that game doesn't need spammable iframes, because the hitboxes are surgical. Well guess ****ing what, in BDO we have attack hitboxes the size of the screen on half the classes, including some melees, so dodging attacks by walking out of them by a millimeter is a luxury we don't have. We need abilities that move us half way across the screen while invincible to avoid those, otherwise the combat becomes brainless damage trading.

    As for your second paragraph, I don't disagree that they should look into giving more iframes to some classes that lack options.

    Disagree, what makes an effective grab engage is a quick gap closer and an instant grab, LSA just made it forgiving and therefore more braindead, not more effective. Warrior grab engage is still very good if you use it reactively instead of just blindly yoloing it.

    And if you want to argue technicalities, then know that Lahn grab has these shortcomings: it is entirely unprotected, it is delayed meaning there is a noticeable time gap between pressing E and the grab connecting, the gap closing options are mediocre as the forward dash is not canceled by the grab so you have to wait the entire duration out and the best one is to actually use the side dash to then turn and grab. In essence, Lahn grab is not that much different from a quick short distance dash+instant grab on other classes, with the difference that it is harder to react to, because you don't see the character moving. Now, the grab engages that are still both effective and forgiving are ninjakuno, as the entire thing is protected, even on a miss.
     
  19. thdsm

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    No you're not, you are angry and frothing at the mouth because you think you just found someone who's wrong on the Internet. Unfortunately for you, they are not so wrong, because if you gave it even a little bit of a thought, you'd have realised that the class variety can only exist within the confines set by the requirements of what players need to be able to do in the game. What do we need to do? Everyone needs to be able to solo grind with similar efficiency, and at least have a shot at defending their spot in 1v1 if needed. This pretty much rules out any pure healer or tank classes out. Guess what you're left with. That's right, nukers in different flavors. Personally I think it's fine, because I really dislike the game forcing teamplay by making you need certain other teammates, instead of encouraging it (PA could do better at encouraging teamplay though). At least they got the flavors right though, hence me claiming that the variety good enough as much as the core design of the game allows it.
     
  20. Escapism

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    Not really mad, i can really only laugh anymore if someone comes up with class variety in bdo, I have argued about this more than enough already to still let it bother.

    But yes, If grinding is basically the only main content, and all of the "endgame" content, then every class needs to be able to grind efficiently. But the ways how different classes could grind differently could still highly vary. I am still hoping for f.e. a mainly dot-based class someday, or for a complete rework of the tamer and her heilang-mounted abilities to actually make heilang important/useful or even her main source of damage. Such things would be completely possible and tweakable to still remain balanced in comparison to all other classes when it comes to grinding speed & efficiency, without even changing anything about the games core design.

    But as I said, a huge part of the game and the content is actually lifeskilling and afk activities, it would be as easy as making pearl purchases, weight & inventory upgrades ect account-wide instead of character bound, to allow us to easily create multiple alts of different classes just for the purpose of those lifeskills, classes or "builds" which could have some bonuses specific for that and dont need to grind at all, as many players already did with lvl 49.99 alts for lifeskills.

    Or they could just give us actual and viable group content and group grinding spots, where having dedicated healers and tanks not only becomes viable, but maybe even necessary. And as easy as that, pure tank/healer classes would have a purpose and be viable for grinding, even if on their own they couldnt grind as efficiently as all others.

    Its not that more class variety than that wouldnt be possible or wouldnt fit in bdo due to its core design, its that the devs simply dont want it, they already have a way too hard time trying to balance 16 "same, but different" classes.
     

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