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Discussion in 'PvP' started by Fearless V, Oct 13, 2020.
ROFL.Way to put oil on the fire for a kind of friendly support !
Bro. Satire. @___@' It flew way over your head x'D but it's cool, I was thinking there'd be a chance my attempt at sarcasm (with an underlying point, mind you, but I'm not that good at sarcasm) would miss, but was clinging on to the hope you'd remember our interactions on this forum and know I'm actually on your side widepeeposad
(I'm a level 63 Sorc main, zero rerolls, since I started this game 4 years ago)
Oh, this kind of thread again...
The only form of "broken grabs" are protected grab (attempts) as you cant counter attack against it even after avoiding it. In my opinion grabs are high risk high reward since the cc mechanics change in 2018, but 4 out of all of the grab classes have protcted grabs (or better say 3.5 since warrior is only on succession) which make the grab a free attempt even if failed - the classes are of course:
zerker - 3 out of 4 grabs are protected
striker - 1 out of 2 grabs is protected
warrior - grab is protected (only the prime/succession version)
guardian - grab is protected (but doesnt linger so desyncs may cause problems with it).
*special mention for ninja awakening grab - while it is not protected when atttempting or failing, it does give i-frame when successfuly grabing the target.
I play grab and non grab classes in BDO.
When I play my hashashin or archer I dont miss my grab 1 bit. Even when fighting a grab class on a non-grab class if you arnt crap at the game you wont get grabbed. Yea, I still get bodied due to a grab from time to time. Almost every time I get grabbed I see it coming and I put myself in a position unable to dodge or defend myself from it.
Also grabs are the only skill in the game you can wiff punish consistently. When you bait a grab and someone is stuck in that animation they are open to get annihilated if capitalised on.
What I'd like to see is a grab counter where every class can use a parry skill that counters ONLY grab attacks. If the counter is successful the parry knocks down the grabber and doesnt count in the CC timer. The parry should be unsafe (maybe a forward guard) and animation locked for how ever long the skill animation is. Meaning there is a risk and reward element to using a grab parry.
Reasons for locked animation & making it unsafe? So you cant just cheese the skill and spam it to abuse the ability. It needs to be a calculated choice. Its cooldown should be short. 3 to 5 seconds, im just spit balling the parameters of this skill. It will add further depths to combat allowing players to make more of a choice
Grabs are here forever. Dont complain and cry about how broken they are. What I am saying here has more of a chance happening ingame rather than reworking them.
No, it's the best/top3 class 24 hours a day at pretty much everything where class performance matters, except for gathering at goat mountain or something.
that is not the point of my comment, protected dash into grab should not be a thing PERIOD. SA block into grab should not be thing either. its not balanced against classes that dont either grab or ranged damage.
But yea if a wizard or witch complains about literally anything in this game theyre just terrible.
Grab inherently isn't bad. Just the way its implemented.
1. Cds are too low. If i dodge a grab i shld be able to pressure the grab class for longer than 6 secs.
2. They work better than every other cc all the time. Imo grabs should have a 2.0 cc counter, instead of the current 1.0. Please explain how knockback and grab can ever be considered the same value.
3. Sa grabs / grabs that instantly cancel out of burst movement is a problem because of high ping on na.
4. More classes need reliable iframes. Tbf a good iframe is all thats needed to counter grabs. Problem is, classes with iframes have too many and those w.o have too few. If you read the comments on here, it'll kinda show shat classes fall where.
Those grabs are imbalanced because they're protected. However, having protection on the grapple animation is a must for a grab to function. See whenever any ninja tries to main hand grab anyone, then gets hit by any random flying cc while in the izuna drop, gets cc'd, then immediately dies to the oncoming zerg.
Hard to balance that out. There's so much ranged and aoe cc in this game that having unprotected movement is suicide. That's why people make it out to be such a big deal when a class has any protection on their movement and they don't. But you can dodge backwards before the grab lands, then counter their grab attempt with a cc. Think of how unstoppable ranger would be if she could literally cc anyone chasing after her at any time in their movement. I do think permanently protected movement is an issue, however. There should be a limit to how much you can dash in and out without caring about cc, regardless of stamina. I also think if you have lots of protected movement, your grab range should be minimal or the grab should be slow.
1. I think cd should be balanced around what all the grab has to offer and how it interacts with the rest of the class's kit. Is it a bound? Probably should be on the lower side of cds. Is it a knockdown or protected outside of the grapple? High cd. Long range? High cd. Stuff like that.
2. Not true. Grab is actually inefficient in Ninja combo and should be used only when necessary. You literally lose damage because you blow a float/air attack slot.
3. I guess?
4. Agreed, but according to the Heedun interview with the "top" ex-sorc from KR, they don't have this issue. So it seems to be because of bad netcode and ping differences.
Back when the feedback library was surveying for pvp/balance changes for classes, one of the suggestions I posted was giving non-grab classes the ability to counter grabs with a new cc type that works based off timing. If you time the skill to their grab, they take the cc the grab would apply instead of you and receive extra damage from your skill. If mis-timed, you take extra damage and eat the cc. Maybe make the counter attack option that?
1) Agreed to most of it, but I think as a base a grabs cooldown cannot be in the single digit numbers. Grab as a mechanic needs to be something that people should strive to land not something that people should look to avoid. Iunno if that makes sense to you. Simple version would be missing grabs is honestly not punishing enough for what it is right now.
2) More of a general statement which stands true even in in the case of ninja. Yes, you get more damage if you cc with a float, but in this case specifically I'm talking about opening ccs. For a skill that literally plucks people out of what they consider their protected state the skill doesn't really have much of a downside at all. Before the cc changes happened, using your grab to put someone on the ground meant 2 things:
a) You don't have standing ccs anymore, so you can't extend a cc
b) You don't have a grab anymore to extend down.
With the current cc system, you have literally no downside to just opening a combo with a grab. Hence my suggestion to change grabs into a 2 cc.
3) We kinda agree on this but it leaks into 4
4) Ping differences actually make grabs hella frustrating to fight. I'm usually rocking close to 100 ping, so when zerks run towards me to grab, I often get grabbed from 1 chase distance away because of the way desync works. It's pretty frustrating, but not much you can do there, but my point still stands. Musa maehwa's kit has 2 iframes. One tied to chase (so you literally have no control over it in most fights) and the second tied to charged stub, which is barely an iframe and frustrating as all hell to use. It's mostly due to stuff like this that you'll see a lotta musa's and maehwas taking the passive play-style while mostly poking and prodding with stubs and the occasional get in fish for cc and run out.
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Even on eu (and with way less than 100 ping) i get consistently grabbed in iframe chase and as u said even IF that wouldnt happen it would be an unreliable iframe.
Hmm 20-30 ping EU and my grabs fails almost every time to the point I rare use it. Even a bers ask me few days ago dont kuno have grabs.. well I use it few times, but every time fails...And block jump animation is so predictable that are used mostly for disengage... so much for OPness.
It takes a bit to calm down when u get bug grabbed on iframe chase then ccd because the person just kept going eith the combo and it ccs u lmao
I honestly think ninja kuno have a pretty good baseline for grabs. Still has the problems i mentioned, but definitely better. But unfortunately most grab classes don't follow that.
You have warriors who block headchase solarflare, c swap grab. Mystic triple dash into succ grab. Zerker running at you into a grab (the most desyncy **** ever btw). Striker (refer to mystic but with more posing). Rangers dont even bow form against me. They literally dance around, lingering sa and then go for a grab. Guardians q block into a/d rmb into a grab. Lahns are pretty much the same as strikers, but when they miss grabs they fly away.
Some of you might say ohhh thats why you need grab, but the thing is, people can't play thus way w.o grab crutch being a thing. W.o grabs being reliable forms of opening a 1shot people will have to do something else or risk getting chipped down because people can do that to them now.
Even better if u get iframe grabbed and "bug" out and they complain about u bugging out even if u shouldnt have been grabbed un the first place
kuno grab does feel really "weak" compared to other grabs
The idea is to wait for when the enemy become visible after the desynced grab and follow up with a knockdown/float, doesn't work on hashashin i-frame though.
I get cc'ed out of Ghost Step and Ninja Step all the time, and I'm sub 50 ms ping now unless I get a bad spike. Then I hit 60-70.
Funny story. My playstyle in the pre-rebalance meta was completely based around my grabs. In the current meta, I hate any matchup that forces me into grabbing and would rather use any other option. Mostly because it's stupid unsafe. I've been in fights where I land my grab, but get cc'd by their attack and knocked right out of the grapple. It's infuriating. Also, any lahn that kites and waits for grab is the worst kind of player and should be beaten with a moldy and hard block of cheese.
That's because it's the one of the few completely unprotected grabs in the game right now and has a really long grapple animation that makes you an easy target to cc. At least Tamer/Ranger/Lahn all have fast grapple animations to make up for their lack of protection. Lahn gets a ranged grab on top of that to sweeten the deal further. Literal aids to deal with. But yeah, Suicide Fall is pretty much suicide in anything outside of a 1v1. Good name for the skill rn.
Yeah I pretty much agree with all this. KD is already an op skill that should be reserved to very few classes or each class should have only 1 maybe 2 skills total with it. lahn grab everyone knows is broken. Only class that should have these (excluding KD grab) is zerker which I believe has more range on grab than other classes minus lahn and also has some SA grabs, zerker is another topic though lol. I disagree that mobile classes shouldnt have grabs. I understand that as a wizard it must seem like the most busted thing but mobile classes with grabs are actually quite important. The same reason you find fast classes with grabs annoying is the same reason they are needed. When heavily SA classes enter into a ball or if members of your backline get CCd its the grab class' job to deal with them. You get solar flare grabbed by a warrior? Now your warrior friend is grabbing that warrior off of you and the guy that grabbed you is dead now. Without classes that can quickly CC high priority targets in the ball or backline the whole group falls apart. Sometimes Ill watch a caster or guardian teleport into my ball in RBF of 20+ people and just watch them all die knowing I could have saved them if I wanted to but because the job of mobile class with grab wasnt fulfilled it became a gear check and class check. (my team doesnt save me many times so sometimes I get petty :p) without mobile grab classes the game becomes boring and about which side has more gear, numbers, better classes and not as much about coordination and different classes doing different roles. About the CD yeah I think 10+ second cooldown for grabs is something I would be fine. Another interesting idea I heard that I kinda liked was that grab cant penetrate forward guard, only SA and unprotection, might be an interesting idea. And yeah no class besides zerker should have 2 or more grabs imo, even if you properly bait out 1 grab it doesnt mean much since by the time (or if) you are able to bait out the other then the first is off cooldown again, hardly any punishment for failed grab. I am fairly neutral about grab damage but don't see an issue with the damage, it isn't really that high against DR builds and against evasion builds it only really chunks if it crits. Lingering crit grab isnt really that great and you can do more damage by doing a regular DPS combo for DR targets and also many times for evasion ones as well. The other thing to note about lingering crit grab is that it means you already got a catch CC on them that isn't grab which for warrior at least usually means lingering crit grab wouldnt be the highest DPS followup, and the second thing is that in combos where you do lingering crit grab it may be more difficult to fit in counter in an effective way which is a much better anti evasion tool. Counter should probably be nerfed a bit or have it's cooldown increased tbh.
Very true. When I first started PvP in BDO I went into with the mindset that I was not yet a good player and that I could learn something from everyone. I did my best to not get a lot of pride or an ego and after every duel session with someone I'd ask them what I did wrong, how I can improve, and I can change. That mentality was one of the best things I ever had for PvP since if you're willing to learn the teachers are there and the knowledge is available. For players that don't want to learn, they'll never improve. Learning means they have to accept that they don't know. They'll never improve.
you play 0 hours a day so why do you care? and if you play more why don't you learn the class