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PSA: Valk and War are not Tanks

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Netreiam, Aug 28, 2018.

  1. Netreiam

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    Let's look to a definition of tanks that seems fairly simple.

    Tank
    Noun: A player-character, typically in a MMORPG, that is able to occupy an aggressor and take the brunt of the aggressor's attacks while the other players deal damage, heal, or perform some other action. The "tank" can survive longer while taking damage than the other characters. Typically, the tank has higher hitpoints (health) and a higher armor rating than the other characters. Less commonly, a character with a lower armor rating can perform the actions of the tank by using avoidance abilities. Ultimately, the tank needs to be able to occupy the aggressor without dying. The method employed, whether avoidance or absorption, does not matter, as long as the tank can migitate damage in some way.

    For some reason whenever someone says anything about buffing either of these classes to better fit the meta of this game, there are always those who say things like

    "It's a tank, it shouldn't have damage because then it would be OP"
    "It's a tank, it shouldn't be mobile because then it would be OP"
    "It's a tank, it shouldn't have CC because then it would be OP"

    To which I ask, why do you think this class is a tank? And the response is almost always

    "They have shields, so they can take more hits than any other class. Therefore, they are tanks"

    BUT, we have just established that tanking isn't just being able to absorb an arbitrary amount of attacks, but OCCUPY THE ENEMY WITHOUT DYING OR DYING MORE SLOWLY.


    So, in light of this definition lets look at what actually happens in combat.

    Block -> Gets broken almost immediately in the AP ****fest of this game and takes time to come back. Can be made useless with back attacks and While it is gone, all defensive skills that use it are rendered useless. Ability to occupy enemy: Until block is broken, which can be 1 skill in some cases.

    SA -> Can still die, but you are protected until then and some SA reduces damage too bootAbility to occupy enemy: until a grab or enough focused chip damage

    I-Frame -> No counter Ability to occupy enemy: Infinite


    So, basically, block seems to have the least amount of actual tanking effectiveness and I-frame the most. Lets see if this actually matches up in the game with classes that use each defense as their primary and how well they tank.

    Block primary classes -> War/Valk: Get destroyed almost immediately because their shield breaks and then CC -> GG Can tank 1 or 2 enemy at most, tanking gone once shield is broken.

    SA primary classes -> Zerker, Wizard, Witch, Striker, Mystic: Get killed quickly when focused but can survive due to being able to avoid CC Can tank multiple enemies as long as they avoid staying still for too long and being focused.

    I Frame primary classes -> Sorc, DK, ninja, kuno: Never die as long as they have stamina and mange cooldowns no matter how many people are attacking.Can tank infinite enemies for as long as they manage stamina/cooldowns.





    Even before renown changes, warrior and valks could rarely enter giant groups of enemies by themselves and be able to occupy the enemy. Sorcs and DK's however were notorious for it.


    Summary: Valks and Wars are not tanks, If tanking requires staying alive and being a nuisance Sorc and Mystic are at the top and should be the actual targets of "tanks shouldn't have X" comments.
     
    #1 Netreiam, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
  2. Luxea

    Luxea Ranger 62

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    Or they can do actual class balance so your shield/block/dp is relevant again. Maybe even add a group-content oriented skill so that valkyries can protect 4 ppl positioned behind them with their shield stationarily with increased defenses to take damage for their team while warrior can only protect 1 person but can move around. But who am I kidding! *cough cough* Reroll tickets *cough*

    Oh and...screw immersion, why should shields be used for protecting oneself or other people?
     
  3. Eardwynn

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    Warriors are the most useless class in group pvp. Need at least 30 more renown to compete with all classes. Even in 1v1 if the other player knows where warrior SA are broken they can CC and 1 combo is without need to grab.
     
  4. Josh28

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    Valk looks like it was intended to be a tank considering it has an agro-pull skill(useless afaik), and a shield(Like other classes), but PA says it can take more hits with the +20 all dp buff than a whizz. They have never played a wiz/witch. Valk doesn't have Zerker HP, but it has 2 heals and some CC while being slow and can't run very far, so maybe it's a hybrid of some kind?

    You can use shield chase and the pre-awakening dash to move a good distance but it's unprotected and tends to stop your running char. Death line chase should be protected by iframe or SA considering the distance you run with the thing is too damn short and drains your stamina just like iframes do in other classes.

    PA buffed Hastilum's range and it has a speed buff for Valk's mobility, but that skill isn't fit for the role of gap-closer imo. I prefer they buff shield chase from pre-awk and the dash not to consume any stamina. Actually, no skill with cooldown should consume stamina or at least some part stamina and part the class's resources if it requires movement. (Like 80 stamina and 150 mana) Only spammable skills should consume stamina cuz they are restricted...but now, Valk hardly runs out of DP resource and has to stay on the spot to kill anyone.

    Those devs might know coding, programming or whatever, but ideas, imagination, understanding, and implementation are horrendously appalling.
     
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  5. Lee Ryu

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    BOYS !
    Maehwa has a block it's a tank ! lmao
     
  6. Durakus

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    Tanks in PVP are harder to define than PVE tanks. So stating a definition of tank, then saying they aren't tank cause they die in PVP is pretty asinine.

    I'm not disputing the viability of warriors in PVP, sounds like they're not doing so great. But I am disputing the class definition as not being a tank. Clearly based on your definition, it's from a PVE perspective. Just because the Accepted PVP META isn't oriented towards tanking, doesn't mean the class isn't supposed to be a tank class.

    If a warrior can distract or defend while an ally Attacks from the back. Is that not Tanking?

    Now, what it sounds like you're looking for is adding more damage or iframes to "classes that aren't actually tanks" to compete with characters that appear to "TANK" better. Which won't be the solution to the problem. Because it's exactly what they keep doing to everything and it's not helping. The game itself, as well as these specific classes, need skills that define their class and abilities to be viable.

    Warriors and Valks sound more like they need DP buffs, mobility buffs and active skills that reward them for TANKING and brings value to the class by adding consequences to those that attack the tanking class out side of Knock downs and guard breaks.

    If I were to design buffs for Tanks, They'd have a Defence skill that increases with more people around them and debuffs attack power. And Counter stances where they can regenerate or stun if players attack during certain frames (With animation tells and VFX so it's not easy to spam and win every fight). Skills like these are essential on tanks because you shouldn't WANT to engage tanks first. Making them have periods of extreme tankyness or even invulnerability will not only frustrate players who are engaged with them, but they will be a tough obstacle to overcome in large scale pvp as they will hinder the ability of players to effectively attack (Which is what tanks are supposed to do)

    However, I'm not sure if PA have the imagination to pull off what every other MMO has been able to do.
     
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  7. SKS_DK

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    nobody is a tank in this game, you die in 2 hits regardless of your class at end game AP
     
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  8. Netreiam

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    I'd say the definition is pretty accurate in both PvP and PvE, the goal of a tank is to occupy an enemy while staying alive, obviously you will die in both PvE and PvP, but until that happens you are tanking, once you're dead you're not. A tank should be able to keep an enemy occupied, or "tank" and enemy for significantly longer than any other class. If they die as easily as everyone else (or easier in war/valk's case because terrible kits) then how can they be considered tanks?

    I'm not saying that Valk and War aren't supposed to be tanks. I'm just saying that, the way they are designed, they are not, in fact, tanks. Even when lingering SA was a thing they weren't significantly better at surviving than other classes because almost everyone had near perma SA if they rotated skills correctly.

    As for the hypothetical, yes, that would be tanking. But any class can distract/defend while allies attack, and most have better protections and therefore can do it longer than a warrior. Like I said a tank should be recognizably better at tanking. If one class is infamous for "tanking" it would be sorc. How many times have you seen people chase a sorc in a node war/RBF for long periods of time and then get flanked and ganked when the sorc's allies arrive? THAT is tanking.

    Not necessarily. All I'm pointing out is that because these classes are not tanks, they shouldn't be gated from receiving those kinds of buffs. It wouldn't suddenly make them actual tanks; at least, no more than classes with effective protections are, but it would make the class viable instead of keeping them in the dirt because of a mythical "tanky" quality that they don't actually have.


    I actually agree with this wholeheartedly. I honestly don't want these classes to be another assassin class that just has a shield (which is how they functioned pre-renown basically). Changes like these would be awesome and I've had plenty of ideas for making these classes a better fit for their roles. But....


    This is the main issue. I don't really want to suggest off-the-wall stuff because PA keeps messing up even the most basic things.

    That is why I argue for being able to receive the buffs that just make valk/war like everyone else. Because PA has shown to be terrible of giving classes defined roles that they
    1. Have the skills to execute properly.
    and
    2. Have a reason to take up.










    Really liked your post btw.
     
    #8 Netreiam, Aug 28, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2018
    Durakus likes this.
  9. Jollywand

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    mmmmmm yeah they r
     
  10. Tvvin

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    High ap player : "What is a tank?"
     
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  11. EvL

    EvL

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    This game doesn't even have a trinity system.. it's actually sad people believe Valks and Warriors are tanks in BDO xD
     
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  12. Spartakatz

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    Very long text, tl dr, but agree they aren't tanks. One crucial thing would be extreme high cc resistance and significant higher def. They die as fast as others with same gear. The shield is just a little different mechanic.

    Only thing tank-ish is valk aggro which works well on scroll bosses, but also not needed.
     
  13. AZzalor

    AZzalor EU

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    There are no class roles in this game. Everyone is a dps.
     
  14. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

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    the term tank has been stretched so thin and pushed so hard that even mystic is being labeled as a tank, despite she has ZERO tank skills, infinite fortitude puts you in a stationary state, and her e buff gives no meaningful tank stats, other than those two skills none of her skills are tank skills, plus mystic damage is lower than valks and warriors, so i guess they need to fix mystic first, at least valk and warriors damage is ok.
     
  15. Minmin

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    What Dev should do is to change the current Pvp mechaninsm, focus more on increasing survivability of one in gameplay

    Im not a master brain here. However these are the ideas that i can provide.

    The main core purpose of CC’s are :

    • Free hits , this where skilled players dominate the pvp
    • Buying time for certain reasons
    • Creates an opening or opportunities for ur combo’s
    • Looks cool

    1
    . There will be Tough Cc ( Only Grabs ), Hard Cc & Soft Cc ( i will explain it later )

    2. Replace 5s CC immunity with Dmg receive reduction which stacks along when stacking Cc’s ( max 55% ).The 1st & 2nd ccs is standardized, following on will be effected. Basically, players are able to deal full dmg on their foes only after their 1st or 2nd Cc.On the 3rd cc or so on ,Dmg receive reduction takes place.

    Having Rng in the system will be the limiting factor of how many cc we can apply in which the more u stack cc , the lesser chance of the next cc will lend successfully. The first 2 hard cc has a huge success rate but then the 3rd and onwards will be effected. Hence , players are encouraged to build more evasion or accuracy to optimize or enhance this effect. Make that " To have more accuracy , one has to sacrifice their Ap for it." same goes with Dp & Evasion

    This passive buff resets when one didnt get Cced for 5 sec or when one " immune" to 2 cc in a row which they are suppose to be Cced. Front Guard & Super Armour isnt counted.

    Using tough Cc to engage a fight when the opponent doesnt have the passive yet will lead them to have % of Dmg receive reduction in an instant. Basically our Grab will jump straight to stage 3rd Cc category when we use it as our first Cc on our opponent. However, if we use grab to chain our 3rd cc and onwards, it will be standardized which mean it will go from stage 3rd cc category to stage 4th cc category and so on..

    3. Knockback , Airsmash & Downsmash would be under SoftCc.
    Knockdown, Floating, Bound, Stiffness , Freeze & Stun would be under HardCc.


    There will be another 2 category, one is " Cd disturbance" another one would be " Cc emplifier "

    Make that , Stiffness & Stun will be under the category " Cd disturbance" and are able to pause all enemy’s skill cooldown temporary during the duration( 0.7-1.0 )based on what cc we use , potions cd included . Dmg applied during these Cc give bonus dmg in which x1.25 . This can be merge with Backattack . Effect nullified when repeated with same skills under same category.

    Stuns & Grabs will be under category " Cc emplifier " , able to increase the chance of their next Cc to be more successful. Basically they are the bridge for long Ccs. Effect nullified when repeated with same skills under same category

    Freeze duration will increased to 1.7 which eventually leads to ground state in the end. There will be Passive mp recovery during that time. However the duration depends heavily on the dmg deal to em ( allies included ) . With enough dmg dealt during that time , ice cube will shatter , giving a debuff which decrease enemy’s DP for 3 sec . ( when opponent are in frozen state , our dmg against em is highly reduced ) . Ice cube will shatter eventually , just the matter of time. The debuff would become stronger if the time taken to shatter the ice cube is shorten ( max -20 Dp )

    4. V skill ( escape skill ) cooldown will be maintianed. However, there will be cd deduction which will decrease the cd by % when we are under Cced state. Basically if we are being Cced very frequently, we will find that our V skill will be much more available for usage.

    V skill will be able to ____refresh our passive buff when our passive buff is about to wear off, using V skill to ____refresh the duration which means its back to 5 sec again.

    When we use the skill V to escape , our opponent can still be able to track us down by using the same skill as well . Basically a " V chase " .Only players under V skill can see themselves. However, its encourage not to chase em down all they way cuz theres a stun effect after a V skill ( its already implemented to the game ) and are still vulnerable during that period.

    5. Blackspirit rage ‘dmg is lacking . We could make those skills are able to ignore the Dmg receive reduction , a full dmg as a final blow. Considered as an Executional Skill after all the combo. Effect nullified when blackspirit rage isn’t at 100% ( the other alternative is to use Stiffness / Stun )

    Black spirit rage will generate faster when character under Cced . The longer the cc , the faster the rage generated on the one that’s under cced

    6. I could see some Witchards hidding their laughs xD . Welp , Witchards ‘ heals on Allies will be reduced when the ally has the passive buff.We can nerf witchards healing by scaling the heal percentage on the ally based on what stage the passive buff at

    7. To make the Pvp mechanics to be alot more competitive( mind game ), we could add a Parry skill ( cool down 7 sec ) that are specialized to counter against Grabs. Parry skills are immune to grabs only, other cc are still vulnerable to the user. When using the skill, the user can only face the direction they first casted and are unable to move or face the other direction for 0.7sec. A unique animation stances ( differs from all classes ) will be shown during the activation.

    When a Soft/ Hard cc hits us during our Parry skill, we have no choice but to accept our faith and to be punished. However, our character position will be shifted randomly either go the the left or the right, same goes with the hitbox. Lets say the Cc applied was a Knockdown. Hence a knockdown animation is applied, instead of having our character getting knocked up and land flat onto the ground backwards , our character would get knocked up and do some weird acrobatics to either left or right and land flat onto the ground eventually. Like a break fall , perhaps a last breath to get urself to safety.
     
  16. Nexius

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    People saw Warriors and Valks as tanks because in BDO's game mechanics they are the cloests thing that fits the description. In fact in most scenarios they behaved like true tanks and it was because Super Armor and Block mechanics kept them in fights much longer than other classes. Warrior had been notorious for simply blocking and abusing 100% until that functionality was intentionally nerfed. Valk was sleeper OP for the longest time because they had much greater mobility and burst than a warrior.

    Not only did their 100% do more damage but they could reset thier shild much faster than warriors could, cc entire groups of players, PA, self/party heal and burst targets down all while zipping around? In BDO's fast paced combat they were indeed tanks. If blocking actually had a much longer internal cooldown/significantly longer regen time this wouldnt be a valid argument. The only downfall of these two classes (aside from intentional damage and mobility nerfs) was the hyper scaling of AP over the history of the game. AP makes block worthless if you stack extreme amounts of it, thus effectively stripping any identity as a tank these classes had.

    So should valks and warriors be talked to as classes that are "meant to be tanks". Maybe not, but it doesnt help that most if not all the warrior and valk community rely on these block mechanics that MAKE THEM function as tanks. A warrior and Valk will never understand the frustration that is being a class with no grab and not having 261+AP, literally its an entirely different experience. Likewise sorcs, ninjas, musa,etc cannot unfairly criticize warriors and valks for being cry babies that hide behind their shields because well... their class is intended to do that. For all intents and purposes the two classes function as tank classes, this is undeniably the case, in practice and theory.

    They only have damage most likely because being a class that lacks decent damage in this game isnt feasible, KR MMO's value individual player performance, filling a class archetype and being gated out of a "role" isnt something eastern mmos share with western ones typically. Everyone has to do damage (a trait many western players are ungrateful about in general but thats neither here nor there). Perhaps if they replaced the block with an actual counter attack, so it functioned as a timed cc and not a static block, while also giving them sutable i-frames warriors and vlaks may have some ground to stand on. But as it is the block mechanic was never looked at as the game updated and intended to be a tank feature primarily all evidence points to this.
     
  17. Lordche

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    Valks is dead class. No Dp. No CC. No SA. No invensible. No Dash SA. Any move = Dead/ No move = Dead. Valks is 100% Life skills. End.
     
  18. Taquain

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    You do realize a warrior or valk who build full dp or hybrid are tanky as **** plus the fact that they have a TAUNT. That legit pulls aggro. ( Warrior gives a dp debuff and Valk givs a accy Buff) I will agree with you that warrior and valk do need a dp buff tho
     
  19. Factorial

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    There is only one role in BDO and it's DPS. Some classes take damage better than others. Some are made to counter another class. Some are just plain old broken.
     
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  20. Decem

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    I hope you arent serious about war cry skill.
     

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