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Removal of the Shai censorship

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Tirae, Jul 11, 2019.

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Do you want the original 'uncensored' models?

  1. Yes

    60.9%
  2. No

    20.5%
  3. Don't care

    18.6%
  1. Cal Reveraster

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    By the way: my source here is that I'm a software dev myself and have owned a development company in the past. It was part of my job to know these laws inside and out, which is why I'm advocating the point.

    I'm not saying Im 100% sure that this is PA's reasoning. I'm just putting it out there as a very serious possibility.
     
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  2. WinterMilla

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    There are cases of the law being fully inforced others where its not, even some that kinda just go eh~. If I recall correctly there was this thing about a law to ban loli characters out right but it didnt make it. Well The subject it self is irregular.

    However the point stands that the in game shai doesn't have anything obscene in the first place. Can you name a specif action in which she has this? No. If you are gonna say "Well the underwear" wow not like they dont have kids in underwear adverts. Heck the beach itself would be a legal hell hole if that was the case. Yet moving back into shai, There is no legal reason for it. Now if they had shai preforming sexual acts, well that changes alot, but that's not the case here.

    You know what easy sure fire way that would break the myth its a legal reason? Global labs, PS4 version, Official adverts, heck even in this thread you can find people posting all angles of shai censored and not yet those images haven't been deleted. Again, when law was brought up it was to make an extreme example. Though not going to lie was pretty funny to see people run with it (and we aren't even gonna talk about how anime largely would be screwed by this hahaha High school).

    Shai by no means is sexual and the censor is still as silly as it was before. Again we have many games to reference that does beyond what PA/KaKo ever do in their games, yet we dont see any legal problems. I half regret entertaining the law bit as it was to be used once as an example and not a end all be all.

    So to ask again "What needed to be censored on shai? What was so sexual?"
     
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  3. Capca

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    Doesn't matter, even in the original Korean version wasn't sexualized clothing bu U.S. standards. Two-piece swimwear is perfectly legal to be worn by minors in the US, so the clothes alone aren't an issue. As for the lewdness, if someone finds a way to cross the line with in game actions/animations, then current censored underwear wouldn't matter. "But you can't see her shoulders and knees" would not make a working defense.

    They've already created a Streisand effect by doing what they did. If they would just fix the current default underwear so it didn't stick out of clothing this would go away.

    Most, myself included, would be happy with anything that didn't peek out of her outfits. If her current censored underwear stopped at the top with a tube top and her pants where boy-shorts at the summer dream length, I'd be fine. It seems though that we're allowed only one thread of this problem and this is it.

    They aren't covering their asses. There are people who get their rocks off looking at feet.

    The tamer is canonically underage, and since you brought up US code, that is good enough, no matter what she looks like. Tamer by default looks underage and can me made to look even younger. The point isn't that if Shai is censored the tamer should be also. The point is that no one cared about the tamer having actual sexy looking clothes, so no one should have a problem with the incredibly conservative Shai clothing that shows her knees or shoulders. Look at the Naga picture I posted, that underwear glows in the dark it's so badly done.
     
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  4. Joungf

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    When Carl Reveaster says "apple" and some people understand "pear" .....
     
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  5. Cal Reveraster

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    Explaining things is difficult because a lot of people don't bother to look into it enough to really dig to the heart of the matter - however some people CAN be pretty good about it, and a couple here have been - but it's had when people "correct" you without a full understanding of the law.


    I don't think you're familiar with the law (which I don't blame you for, its convoluted and not too many people have much of a reason to care about it).

    The current laws about what someone can wear and what someone can create media out of, are very different and independent laws. In the courts, this wouldn't be an admissible comparison to make. That said, I agree with you that the current clothing was not sexualized. However, the game's emotes, actions and character creator (which you dismissed as not mattering) do very much matter as they are provided to the user by PA in connection with the Shai. In other words, PA is handing the user the ability to sexualize the Shai, even if its unintentional.

    Could that be fought in courts? Absolutely. Would PA win? Most likely. Would it cost a shitload of money? Yes.

    So again, this isn't about what actually would or would not be okay. As I've said a few times already, this is about PA giving that problem a wide berth - and I don't blame them for that. If I were them the last thing I would want is a media headline of "Game Developer Pearl Abyss brought before the Supreme Court for alleged violation of the Protect Act". Even the slightest possibility of that would be enough to make any company cover their butt.

    While I agree with you, I'm going to remake a point I've already made: if I had to pick between "PA being too careful to make sure children cant be subject to exposure" and the headline from the above paragraph, I (and most legal departments) would absolutely 1000000% choose the one in this paragraph over the one in the above paragraph.

    I agree, I think that needs to be fixed and there are plenty of people here who have said that and I believe that's a completely valid point. You paid for a product, you expect to get what you paid for.

    One of the first things I said is that if this thread was titled "correct the outfits" and not "uncensor the shai" I think the position would be much clearer and not nearly as controversial in the discussion. wording is important.

    Imagine a scenario where you're walking down the street and a mother passes you with a child who has a daughter - and that daughters dress is a bit too small and shows her underwear. Addressing this by telling the mother "hey, your childs underwear is hanging out, and you may want to correct that" is very different from saying "hey, you should remove that underwear shes wearing, it really takes away from the quality of that dress."

    See what I mean?

    My point is that I agree. This thread in particular is just taking an approach that maaaaaayyybe might not sound like the goal is to correct the outfits. However, the outfits need to be fixed. That's for sure.

    As I said above, its not about what people get off to - its about whether or not PA provided the means for that.

    So this is, again, I think just the consequence of under-information on the law. I've said this in previous posts but US law does NOT take into consideration what the stated age of the character is. If a character looks 50 but is said to be 12, it's not child porn. Conversely if the character could pass for being over 18 but is said to be 14, the law is the same. If you look into how the "Obscenity" law is applied to the Protect Act, you can see how they accomplish creating that method of determination in the US code.

    tl;dr I agree with a lot of your points, but in return I ask that you take a step back and look at my perspective. As I've said before I have no way of knowing if this is their reasoning - but with an understanding of the law I think that it's a reasonable assumption that PA would rather cover their butt than not.

    edit for a formatting error
     
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  6. Cal Reveraster

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    There are tens of thousands of cases where the punishment for murder isn't fully enforced either. Just saying "some people didn't get convicted" is a hard sell when that happens with all laws - but more importantly, conviction rate isn't the point. PA cares about sales. And if they even got so much as a warning from the US government, the media would be aaallllllllllll over it. That's the real problem.

    In the last reply to another user (right above this one) I kinda covered this, but for the sake of not making you dig through the new replies I'll hit it again.

    Underwear adverts and beaches are dealt with under completely different sets of laws, just like nude beaches that are family oriented have their own governing body of laws. The laws that govern these things are not the same as what governs entertainment media. Movies, art and video games have their own independent set of governing laws which they must adhere to.

    Example: if a child's underwear ad was posted as "entertainment media" it would be child porn. if someone took a picture of a kid on a family naturist beach and posted it online for reasons other than promoting the beach, it would be child porn. And in fact, many sites that show children get around the law by "advocating" for family naturism for just this reason and then use the excuse that theyre "promoting" naturism to post pictures of nude, underage children. Its sick but its a reality. Predators use this loophole in the law all the time - and while normally to this I would say "just google it and see for yourself" I'm not sure I'd recommend that this time. Because you may be disgusted at the result.

    However, the existence of these sites speaks to the loophole in the law and a problem that exists because of it - so your point here is unfortunately not something that's grounded in reality, and is an assumption made. Granted, this assumption IS grounded in common sense and is an assumption I would make too, if I wasn't familiar with the law.

    So, all of these have reasons for being exempt:

    Global Labs: This is Korean-published and imported and is therefore subject to Korean Laws, not ours. As long as the US Federal Government approves the import, it is now legally protected.

    PS4: BDO is protected by the platform here. Because Sony has approved the game for distribution on its platform, Sony would be the ones liable for a lawsuit, not PA. Note: Usually the instant reaction here is "well what about steam then?" and the answer to that is most companies who have to make these kinds of modifications wont want to make a different build for the Steam version and their website version. That's a ton of unnecessary work.

    Official Adverts: These are covered under advertisement and not entertainment media. See the points above about the child underwear ads, etc.

    This thread: BDO didn't make or post any of these images. Like Facebook, forums are protected under internet laws and are not legally responsible for the content created and posted by its users.

    Again, this is a common sense assumption that you made, but it is an assumption - and keep in mind that the US law system is stupid and not grounded in common sense. It's why people are paid a lot of money to interpret it.

    For the other games, I'd point you to the above information about where the game is published/what laws that media is covered under.

    As for the Shai not being sexual, I agree. However, I also understand why the laws can be absolutely terrifying to a company trying to make money.

    Just gotta try and see both sides of the fence.
    (edited for a poorly worded sentence)
     
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  7. WinterMilla

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    Well upon reading more into it, on a federal level yes a no no. I mean they still think manga, comics and games still are for kids. Though there are some take a ways from this and they still don't apply to shai.

    First in order to be "Obscenity" it would need something to back it. BDO on the PS4 and Global labs would be seen more as imports since they are directly published by PA which is a Korean based office. Now I'm not a lawyer nor a law student, but it was and still isn't stated that this was a legal reason. The closest you could get is the "cultural differences" but that was vague and could be spun 30 ways to Sunday. Moving to the point that KaKao who is the publisher of this forums and the PC version themselves have posted what was pointed out to be the uncensored version. Furthermore we can point to global labs for any proof of it not being a legal reason. The main reason global labs isn't accessible to the EU is due to a data protection law (Or something to that effect). Using this we could see that the shai should easily get the game pulled if this is the case, yet that's not what happened. Also we can bring in Tamer to see how many regarded her as child-like in her release and even to this day. However despite what could have easily been a shai part two, nothing was ever done to her.

    Now then pushing forward we later got a new reason as to why it was censored that being camera angles. Which isn't a legal reason. Then we have other examples no in just BDO sense but gaming and media as a whole. One game that was brought up was Tera, which originally they did censor but later just stopped. They still have censored version of the outfits in Tera, but later outfits are left as is. There are plenty more examples of this, but the main point is this how this was never a legal issue. This will have to be a reminder next time I goto the extreme I will need to go all the way there.

    Point being the same things you can find BDO doing with shai, is the same thing you could see going to a beach or pool. Not saying wierdos do go there, but saying how what PA had shai as under all legal status are just fine.

    So in short, for now yes loli hentai no no (until I get a chance to look into it more... by the end of this I am going to end up on some kinda watch list...). However this still doesn't on a legal point count on the censor of shai. Its a moral argument at the best.

    No its more like everyone was saying apple, then people started saying "well but then pine apples might be apples"
     
  8. Skilliard

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    I'm certain Kakao censorsing shai had nothing to do with laws. I'm fairly certain it's the publishers pushing their own personal conservative agenda onto the game. This p2w game literally prints money for them so they can do whatever they want.

    Debates over legality of "loli" in various countries are irrelevant. Anyone that got charged over drawings were for extremely offensive pornographic depictions of abuse. No one is getting in legal trouble over a game where undergarments could potentially be visible with the a particular camera angle.

    If prosecutors wanted to go on an 'anti-loli' spree, there's infinitely easier targets for them to go after than BDO's shai.
     
    #1208 Skilliard, Feb 21, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2020
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  9. WinterMilla

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    ever just typed loli into google.... nuff said
     
  10. Skilliard

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    What's your point? Not gonna do it myself, I don't want to be on an FBI watchlist...
     
  11. WinterMilla

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    saying how they have plenty of targets other than BDO.
     
  12. Shuusaku

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    And that is why we have a minor called Tamer wearing sexualized outfits? Or many Shai NPC without this censorship? Sorry, but if that was the real reason they would have removed all of that, to avoid the slightest possibility. You try really hard to make censors look good and justified, but it looks like it is nothing practical like that - more likely it is just a moral busy body deciding something for the rest of the players just because they felt like it.
     
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  13. Capca

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    I'm not as unfamiliar with the law a you think. The U.S. law on the matter doesn't say things like "Calfs and biceps are OK, but thighs and shoulders are not". Instead it covers things like what a reasonable person thinks, etc... My point is if you can find it in the kid's clothing section of a Walmart in the bible belt, then a reasonable person wouldn't find the fashion objectionable. They never needed to censor Shai at all if it was the US they were worried about, and if they wanted to be safe they never had to go so far as to ruin the Shai outfits by telling an intern to just "cover her up using MS Paint".

    And I didn't dismiss the the game's emotes. Knowing the culture is important here. My point is that if someone found a way to make a video of Shai in her underwear doing things that crossed the line using in game animations, it wouldn't matter to the American groups (private or government), that might take issue, whether the character was in the original underwear, current censored underwear, or something in between. In fact if PA wanted to cover their butts, they should never have released the Marine Romance outfit in the west. That is children's fashion and anyone watching inappropriate animations in those clothes posted from the game out of context would know the intent was to make her look like a child. PA can't even claim that it's even in lore appropriate clothing.


    First you are very wrong on the 12 who looks 50. Canonical age matters a much was apparent age for art and in the States video games are art.

    That doesn't even matter to my point though since the tamer's default appearance looks underage and can be made to look even younger. So bundled together; she's stated as underage, her promo version looks underage, she can me made to look even younger, and she has intentionally sexy underwear and clothing, and no one has made a fuss or gotten in trouble. Yet, they still think they need to put Shai in underwear that doesn't fit with her lore friendly, non-sexy outfits? That is just insane thinking.
     
  14. ElectroStingz.

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    I have used the body of a valkyrie to kind of get this to work. Its the termian bikini from last year.

    [​IMG]

    As to the question, if this was in the game would it be an issue?
     
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  15. There isn't nothing wrong. The problem are people that thinks it's wrong and are trying to defend a fiction character of a thing that is not needed.
     
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  16. ChristmasChan

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    You clearly dont remember the dark side of google in the early 2000s

    nuff said.

    also i really dont get why this is still a thing. cant you make a ultra tiny tamer now to be more loli like than shai?
     
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  17. DheReaper

    DheReaper Ranger 62 EU

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    Any player who got the game after shai shai tr on bdo youtube can refund the game cause of the false publicity policy.
     
  18. johnnified

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    I dont agree or disagree. Im just commenting to keep the thread going.
     
  19. Capca

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    At this point, if BDO made an alternate version of the tamer body, then gave every Shai character the option to permanently switch, forever giving up Shai clothing but could wear tamer armor, outfits, and costumes, I’d switch without hesitation.

    After 8 months I don’t feel confident they care about a class that doesn’t share any pearl shop outfits with any other class (male or female).

    [Shai] Marigold Sunset Classic Set is on sale for Shai instead, since there are no premium outfits available for Shai.
     
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  20. MegosCaptian

    MegosCaptian Musa 61 EU

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    They used uncensored shai again in event page :|
     
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