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Removal of the Shai censorship

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Tirae, Jul 11, 2019.

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Do you want the original 'uncensored' models?

  1. Yes

    60.5%
  2. No

    21.4%
  3. Don't care

    18.1%
  1. Kiwaso

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    1 Tamer and 4 Shai. I am the blonde on the left (another personalization)
    Do I have the face of a little girl?
    I wish we had clothes like that Tamer.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Luniartic

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    Not the most constructive comment but your shai has the face of someone who is fed up being treated like a kid...very fitting.
     
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  3. Satsuki Hime

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    Oh, and as for who to blame for the change? It must be someone at Pearl Abyss. Because Shai is censored on Console as well, and Kakao doesn’t handle the Console version; PA does directly.
     
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  4. minusthedrifter

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    Perfect example, thank you! That Tamer is the exact same height as those Shai is facially close to 2/4 yet she has all the "adult" outfits and none censoring.
     
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  5. WinterMilla

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    Ah the looks argument, not really a good one yet I can work with this.

    This is a dangerous argument to make as it can be weaponized towards anything. I.E if I paint a rock gold using yellow metalic paint. Its might look like gold and might even feel like gold, but its still not gold. We learned not to take things at face value as it nearly impossible to prove something off looks alone. How does this relate to shai?

    Well see shai isn't underaged and never was. It was stated in the start back in veila that shai's just happen to look like that. When I first started playing the game and i made it to viela i "assumed" they were kids with big ears, however when a kid ran past me with no big ears I was kinda confused. It wasn't till florin that I finally got that they were not human when I seen all the shai's living on there on in a village and some of them have beads and staches. I just wrote them off as this games dwarfs, which i would be wrong on that again as the game does have dwarfs already.

    So we bring up games like Tera to defend the censorship or use it as to why we don't need it. I find this unfair as the ellin in tera where in a way, sexual. Their hips swayed a lot and their outfits were "skimpy", however I don't really care about them. By don't care I mean they have no physical representation in the 3D plain that can be touched (unless you count hardware but that a whole other topic.). Now compared to shai, she dosen't have anything like that. I sat in game on my lvl 60 shai and stared at her. Not in a lewd sense, but I just wanted to see what could have justified the censor. Nothing came to mind. I got on Labs and spend a min just look there as well, nothing. No hip swaying, no sexual poses or emotes, no moaning, nothing. It was all just normal. The only character in game that I can so far call sexual is Dark Knight as she feels on herself and her swords. Which kinda stunned me in hindsight as no one complained about this on her release or brought up the age rating for the game in NA/EU.

    So I started to do a little digging to see what countries this could offend someone, starting with Korea. What I found was again shocking. Have you ever heard of a rated R movie in Korea? Chances are no as they would have never been shown to the public and if you have seen one then its a heavily edited one with stuff spliced in and out like mad. Any remotely sexual content would be marked 18+ and need to be censored. To which I found it odd that they didn't received the censor for shai if she is what the pro-censors claimed in NA/EU. Go further Japan has censor laws as well and they still have shai untouched. The only place with actual censorship laws that got shai with censorship was Russia, as the media there is also censored.

    Next would come the "Well you should play KR then if you want to player her so bad" argument. This is a really really bad argument on many levels. For one if people who did have a problem with the censor and really wanted to "lewd" shai using the in-game clothing, then isn't it to say they also couldn't just go to Korean servers and do that? Not to mention that you would also go to SEA servers and do the same thing. The problem I have with this is how it treats those who have invested in to the game like criminals and punishes them. I know to some people they don't care about how their character looks and just wear an uni colored ghille, however there are people who sit in the character creation screen for hours designing and redesigning their character. I my self have redesigned my character tamer and Lahn at least five times each in my play time with them and recolored my outfits to match, as to me how they look when they are running round in a pack of mobs is important.

    The reason I don't want a compromise is because it would be like admitting that there was something wrong in the first place. The point on people doing lewd things to their character is down right silly. There are going to people that lewd a character no matter what you do after their release. (Always wondered how some devs feel when they see R34 art of a character they worked on.). Putting the censor on shai made the almost non-problem worse more then it helped. They brought attention to a character that would have fallen off the radar since its not a DPS class that can carry. Now with the censorship people are looking at those areas that was supposed to get them to look away from. As far as the ERP goes people were going to do that no matter how you cut it as they did it with every character even Tamer. While its not my cup of tea, I'm not going to witch hunt them either. Why? For one I don't see it and even if I did its probable to grown man doing with each other. I find it odd that we care more about the character being messed with and not the humans on the other side of those screens.

    The only problem is that the player base for shai is already small, so the amount of voices we can get is small as well (no pun intended). While shai was the character that everyone had made, it wasn't for her play style or looks, but the rewards for making one. Most people just got her to 58 and went back to their mains as if the character was never released. I read many times in the forums that people go on and on about how they don't even plan to main shai, therefore they see no issue with the censor. To which I could understand as if there is a problem that I don't have to deal with then I would most likely not care too much about it and keep moving with my day. The part that kills me is the labeling and the hypocrisy following a chuck of them.

    Such as in the beginning back at the start of what I call the "Shai censorship mega thread", people started off tying to label OP a creep and the rest on his side. Even in this thread we had some of those comments here its just a lot of them got removed as they were clearly here just to mess with people. Even worse is that most people made it a point to go out and focus kill shai that really cant do much but fail around. It was just odd how they responded to claims that this character was being sexualized is by abusing the in game. This is some of the reason why I labelled the overall release of shai a massive set back in a lot of ways.

    All that to say that I feel kinda worried that the shai censorship will no leave because the player base for shai is small, far too small. They will not really have a voice. I feel like most people are just trying to sweep it under the rug so they cant just be right and thats that. I don't mind being wrong when proven that I'm wrong as I don't claim to be right about everything, but what gets me involved is when I see people surpessing and trying to make something the norm when its really not. From this to the pay for convenience.

    whew that was a lot. I left a lot out as I could write a 10 page paper on this and go into far more detail. If see a flaw in my statement quote me on it and I will look into. This the first time I have ever been really active in the forums and also that I've written walls of texts almost every other day.
     
  6. Vanraven

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    I think on average many NA BDO players are just immature and the devs gifted us with censorship because of it. Lineage 2 has been around since 2004 and their "cute" class has always showed skin and no one ever called anyone a pedophile for playing them.

    I mean she looks pretty much like Shai:





    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]


    I never heard of there being a pedophilia raid and law enforcement found the girl/guy were stalking 10 year olds in lineage 2. Because you know, no 10 year old ever played. With that being said, if we really have players that scream pedophilia the moment they see Shai's legs then maybe PA should take the extra step and censor the rest of the female costumes too. Put them in pajamas, nun out fits and remove the option to mess with their boob slider. Because its apparently some players just can't handle polygons.
     
  7. Phoenixxx75

    Phoenixxx75 Lahn 61 NA

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    If you have children are you going to dress them from the neck to below the knee? As a child did you wear clothing like the ones on the shai? I certainly did not and neither did I dress any of my four children in this manner.
    Our western society does not dictate this draconian dress code on real living children so why do so to pixels. The clothing can show neck and knees without sexualising them.
     
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  8. James722

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    It isn't even clear what Pearl Abyss is trying to censor because their additions to the game lack cohesion. Even opponents in this thread can't say what is inappropriate about it and use examples from other games which are much less decent. In time they may release something that isn't a ugly full body pajama. In the meantime hopefully low sales will convince them.

    [​IMG]
     
  9. Ozryel

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    Just tossing in my support for removal of censorship.

    Also I'd like to point out that the thought police have missed a spot.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Lets step up that censorship game boys.
     
  10. Mcwill

    Mcwill Shai 60 NA

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    I've spent a lot of time trying to answer my own question about this censorship. "What was so inappropriate about the Shai that required them to be censored." I've asked the pro-censorship community several times and, while I've received some replies, never received an answer. I tried to come up with whatever I could, trying to think like the developer while they making the changes. The problem is, I could easily argue my own answers. Here are just a few of them.

    1. They might offend somebody.
    I heard a saying one time. One cannot live in a free society and expect to never be offended. Did the company believe that leaving the Shai as they originally designed her would offend some people? Perhaps some people out there would feel offended if they see a small framed, fictional female character in a fantasy video game in her underwear, but only during character creation or in Safe Zones with the option toggled ON. Maybe they might get a glimpse of some white undergarments as the Shai jumps around during combat. Oh, the humanity!

    That being said, if the company has been paying attention, they actually offended more people by adding the censorship in the first place. It's not because we want to see a "child-like" character in her underwear, but because we are offended that the company believes they know what's best for us.

    I am going to borrow some other people's words here. It seems the company made the decision that they want to implement these changes so they appear to be demonstrating a good moral conscience. They are sending a message that shows that they believe the Shai is an innocent race that needs to be protected from the evil eyes of men. What I don't think they realize is that a secondary message was also sent when they did this. That other message says that they also believe that the Shai is a sex object that needs to be covered up.

    2. Exposed skin promotes sexualization
    I can almost see where they would be coming from with this possible answer. In the US especially, exposed skin = sexual. So having a "child-like" character with skin exposed must mean that people will view her in a sexual manner. Again, this fits back into what I said previously. By censoring the Shai, the company is pretty much admitting that they also view the Shai in a sexual way, or at least believe that the players will, so they added the censorship.

    I don't believe that the majority of players believe that the Shai's exposed skin is a sexual thing. Seeing the original Shai model in her tube top and boyshorts during character creation doesn't give me any sort of sexual excitement and it certainly doesn't offend me. When I first loaded up the character creator to create my first Shai, I was angry. I was not angry because I could not see Shai skin. I was angry because some creation options were completely disabled, and the tattoo option was barely usable with only the Shai's forearms and lower legs being available to place them.

    3. Players will generate inappropriate content.
    This one sprang to mind only recently. What if players start taking screenshots of the Shai in her underwear? What if people record a video while looking up a Shai's skirt? I suppose these could be valid concerns. I am going to counter this with the fact that she's only a video game character and not a real person. While those types of media may be considered sexual, they are in no way pornographic. My answer to this is simply, who cares?

    As has been said before, this is not the first game to feature a "child-like" character. Even before the censoring, the Shai is still considered to be dressed the most modestly out of any of them. Using the game Tera as an example, the Elin race is the "child-like" race of the game. Although they faced a similar debate in regards to censorship, that whole thing has gone out the window as new outfits became more and more sexualized. Schoolgirl outfits, swimsuits, lingerie, and others have been released in their cash shop. The game is still online. Nobody cares. Just like how nobody would have cared if the Shai could be viewed in her underwear during character creation nor would they care if they were wearing normal underwear underneath all of their outfits.

    I urge the developers to revert the changes that were made to the Shai. At the very least, reach out to the community to explain their decision in detail. Using a pre-defined e-mail response is not going to cut it. Your community is upset about this. The discussion in the general forums is the 2nd largest thread on the website. Staying quiet on the matter and letting it blow over may be an easy way out, but it's only going to hurt in the long run.

    TL;DR
    I tried to think of a legitmate reason why the Shai was censored. I could not think of one.
     
    #150 Mcwill, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  11. Tirae

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    Oh god. xD Going a little off topic here, but I loved Lineage II. I brought up the game in some other thread talking about the karma system, since the system in BDO reminded me a bit of Lineage II. I had a red, but wasn't really a pker.. I just went after the CN farmers using bots in dungeons and fields farming gold that they would try to sell to players while advertising their sites. One of my main characters (don't take this literal please people xD) was a female dwarf named DrugAddict and I would set up shop near a dwarf male that someone named DrugDealer.. we both sold Coke (an item you could get through special harvesting enemies, used in crafting stuff.. equipment I believe).

    And my god.. people were dirty then. They would spam some of the female dwarf emotes to make it appear lewd and.. yeah. Does bring up a pretty good point that there wasn't any issue then. Kind of makes me think it's the new generation of people and the SJWs, closed minded people, etc that are causing unnecessary grief for gamers.

    I also believe this is a good reason why we don't get many good things in the west anymore. Anime, manga, VNs, games that should of been brought over forever ago but get delayed or stopped entirely because there is some fear it might not do well, or there will be some kind of public outcry, etc. I heard we are finally getting PSO2 maybe.. hmm..! And an interesting other thing to note.. Nintendo, who you'd think would be one console that would censor things, has been leaving a lot of things uncensored and even vowing that they wont force censorship anymore. Now if only others would learn from censorship mistakes.. *nudges PA*
     
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  12. Pebbels

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    but is that we live in the middle age where teaching an ankle was a sin and you were already accused of a bad life woman? I can not believe that in the 21st century it is either PA or KKO keep thinking that way, but if I do not equiboco in KR there is no censorship for the shai and if we think so, the tamer is also a girl or teenager
     
  13. Kanimae

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    And this is the crux of the matter. I am german, as such I am governed by german law, and german law explicitely does NOT distinguish between fact and fiction when it comes to underage anything. If it looks like a child, it's considered a child, animal ears/tails/wings and the promise its a 1000 year old spirit does NOT make it so.

    German law is extremely harsh about these things. Coming back to Tera, everyone knows the Elins, everyone knows they're supposed to be said 1000 year old spirit. Now if you were sexualize elin's in drawings, 3D animations and the likes you would be treated the same as a pedo and face hefty fines/prison.

    I believe this is why Kakao took the step to censor Shai as there's a strong german community among the players. I encourage you to google that part of the german law, I am not making this up. Germany does not distinguish between fact and fiction, and as a german citizen neither can I.

    You are taking this out of context, nor was I the one to bring up skimpy outfits in the first place.

    Under german law video game characters that look like children are treated like real children.

    For the fourth time. There is a major difference as the german law treats fact and fiction the same. If you watch underage hentai in germany, you will be fined heftily and/or receive prison time.
     
    #153 Kanimae, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2019
  14. Vanraven

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    So they would of been forced to change Lineage 2 female dwarf long ago. But its been going strong for 15 years with no problems.
     
  15. Tenerezza

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    Wierd, Tera is operating in Germany just fine, Same with other mmo's such as FF14 and many family friendly games like the Sims who have no issue with this lol, or maybe i missed something? Shai currently does not even have as revealing clothing as some of the Shai's NPC's in game, just go to the current Event area, yet this game is rated 16+ in Europe that makes you think. But i guess all the players who play this game, ff14 or Tera in Germany do so from a prison?

    If your referring to 'fanart' and other art outside the games context, you do realize that happens regardless of the state of the censorship on our server right? Whatever they do to the characters here will bear zero impact on it.
     
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  16. Joungf

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    We should also consider that in some special cases if there are no reports made for that case yet it could not be treated as such.

    I do not wonder of the dilemma the shai class has right now. Why do PA re-invent the wheel again and do not use the more mature looking existing shai model for their shai class? Why creating toddler face templates and no options to adjust other body parts, too, to make them look more mature? It is their own fault that some countries are not amused with their work.
     
    #156 Joungf, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2019
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  17. Yumine

    Yumine Mystic 61

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    This is the rating of terra EU.
    pegi.png
    With your concerns the game should be +18.
    Let's remember a thing. PEGI regulate EU games.
     
    #157 Yumine, Jul 19, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
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  18. Khalel

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    e


    Hello mate, the law doesn't distinguish reality from fiction, but you have to understand that the law talks about pornography, sexualizing, not about bikinis, underwear or that you see your knees. The law applies to certain specific cases in which sexual reference is explicitly made to a child or with intentions of, but nothing else or there would be no girls in the pool, nor on the beach, nor wearing dresses or shorts by law. People who understand removing censorship as sexualizing a character have serious reading comprehension problems and that is to sexualize something. Have a good day :)
     
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  19. NiyiYee

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    Even if the german government doesn't seperate Fiction from fact the servers are still located in The Netherlands, and so is the EU Branch so they fall under Dutch not German jurisdiction. All the German government could do is file a law suite which they will never do cause all characters ever created are fictional and never deemed innapropriate or expressed in a sexual context.
     
  20. Tirae

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    :|
     
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