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Reward "Whales"

Discussion in 'General Gameplay' started by Nihilistic Nancy, May 29, 2020.

  1. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    I'm a grown adult, a woman and I worked hard for everything I ever had in life and because of my hard work, I am now in a position to be able to afford anything I want, when I want it. What's wrong with that? I never had anything given to me in life and grew up poor if you must know...
     
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  2. PeaceInChaos

    PeaceInChaos Sorceress 63 NA

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    Two very good points from both sides of this debate. This is how a discussion should go. I'm glad neither of you resorted to name-calling. Very good job, both of you. We need more discussions like this, that clearly explain either sides position without devolving into petty name calling and other insulting behavior. Please take my likes.
     
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  3. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    What's wrong is that, in Mmorpg, it encourages the slow destruction of our entertainment. Your entertainment, my entertainment, everyone's.
     
  4. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    So, someone who is unable to spend hours on end mindlessly grinding to get gear/progression in a game shouldn't be able to progress by other means that contribute to the overall benefit of future development of the game we all love? I actually have a life and a family and would not be playing this game if i HAD to sit on my ass for hours to progress... I love pvp and that's it and that's what I choose to do. So how is me or anyone else spending a few bux to make that progression a little less grindy slowly destroying the game for everyone? The advantage is minimal at best and the contribution is huge.
     
  5. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    And it encourages devs to propose even more mindless grind instead of creative mechanisms. Who is creating the inconveniences you mention in the first place?

    And that's coming from someone who also have a life and a family, and like pvp. So, instead of accepting that, I'm asking for more ambition for this game, I like it too.
     
  6. Boink

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    That's what most games lean-to and when the game developer push p2w the game dies because they don't have any economy. Remember Archeage?

    Again if I was to ever invest $23,000 into a game I definitely want more improvement into. What did PA do with the 1 billion dollars? Bought Eve Online, A new game engine (which BDO will never be part of), 4 new games under development, and a new building. They are more interested in feeding their stockholders than actual consumers.

    No one hates p2winners. The practice, however, is just bad for the game overall. It was never been p2w when it was released and when I picked it up the leverage was decent. 3X Artisans multiplier and some perks. I was happy to dump $100 every 2-3 months or so. How did it go from Steam release to now.... The answer lies to $80 dollars per share (now trading for around $150)
     
  7. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Dont you see, when you P2W, you actually cause PA to make the grind longer, and more pointless to give you something to Pay to convenience.
    The grind is the entertainment, and should provide adequate rewards to make you want to do it. give you that feeling of wanting to log in to grind.

    BDO's monetization turns the grind into a chore, makes it pointless unless you combine it with money. In this instance for BDO its RNG attempts to improve, or progress. You literally cant grind anything that's close to BIS,(aside from the vells heart) you have to gamble for it, or purchase the end result from someone that 9/10 used IRL money to get the desired result.
    When you play free to play games, they do this on purpose, to finance the product. It works cause the games free, so devs gotta get paid somehow. The frustrations come because not only is this NOT a free to play game, but it also has a pretty mandatory sub, along with 2 gimp removal subs, it has a cosmetic shop, that was promised not to provide advantages, it has pay 2 skip artificial wait, Its Buy to play, it has loot boxes, it has gambling, an extensive cash shop that requires an initial investment of at least $150+ just to unlock one main fully...Pretty much no shortage of ways to finance it self.

    So what happens when people "P2W" is it incentivizes PA to make the game pointlessly grindy, and inconvenient for casuals, providing zero benefit for hardcore players, inorder to have a product to sell. The convenience. And the more people that buy convenience, the more inconvenient PA has to make any new content...to the point that the new content just becomes removing portions of the game to sell back to you. Its honestly just a bad way to monetize a product for gamers, but it excellent for devs cause it pays them to make the game worse.
     
    #227 Kynreaa, Jun 17, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2020
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  8. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    I think everyone actually misunderstands me here. I don't support p2w and I do agree p2w does inevitably destroy potentially amazing games. I've seen it happen... My argument here is that I do not see BDO as a p2w game, not entirely at least. Yes, I see there are convenience cash items that can slightly help someone along but that is as well as grinding your ass off. You can fully pay your way to the highest level of gear but the amount that would cost is astronomical and the amount of people doing that in BDO is so small it's insignificant.

    I think by now everyone knows I've spent 23k + on BDO and I am nowhere near maxed out gear and although I am in a position to straight buy my way to 700+ GS doesn't mean I ever would. I don't think a lot of people take into consideration the amount of money that would actually take and you never get that back. Anyone who is smart enough to make that amount of money is not stupid enough to throw that amount of money away on a pointless video game.

    But yeah, I do NOT support p2w but I do support BDO.
     
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  9. Kynreaa

    Kynreaa DarkKnight 62

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    Please understand one thing..It doesent matter how expensive it is to do it, if anything it being expensive and exclusive makes it the worst kind of P2W. The point is, with PA, they almost make it mandatory just to have a gimp free experience. With your investment, aside from cosmetics and maintaining the subs..what did you spend most of the money on? Was it rng attempts, aka costume melting, to make a 150 fs go through, or just straight currency conversion?

    It has convenience items ALSO, and its not P2W JUST because you spent alot, its P2W because you literally have to pay to get rng attempts for certain things, and win your desired result. Not because you can convert currency to buy stuff off the central market...If they added a way to do that, it would make the game less p2w. Something like a currency conversion. Because then everyone can pay to get these rng attempts and win their desired result.
    The place is a casino, and you may have just spent $23k in the gift shop if you dont have the gear you want by now.
     
  10. Findubar

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    *spends 23k on bdo* then:
    Ok Boomer!
     
  11. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    I have a lot of cosmetics in general and am a sucker for them xD
    I have bought costumes to melt from the pearl shop and also to sell for raw silver but it really turned out to just be a massive waste of money with little to no gains at all. I've made most of my silver and most (almost all) of my gains from playing the game to be honest.

    If you think 23k in BDO (as a p2wer) is a lot, then you really have no idea at all what you are even talking about...
     
  12. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 63 EU

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    [​IMG]
     
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  13. Korvgubben

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    I think the issue is that you are mostly looking up and not seeing the wast majority of ppl that think this amount is absolute insanity below you.


    But dont take my word for it. Go out and ask friends/family/etc. what they think about it. For ppl that have no insight in the gaming world you will ofc have to give some context.

    I've done this myself and you be surprised how many that thought my 355€ spendings was a lot for a game. After I explained that its over 4 years and that a lot of TV channel deals and such costs way more per month over that time period their reactions turned more understanding.

    Now I could also have spent 23k over this same time-span although it would deffo have strained my resources close to my limits but I dont think I would be able to explain that to any1 of the ppl I have asked this far.


    EDIT "go out" might not be the greatest suggestion right now I just realized BUT you know what I'm trying to say.
     
  14. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    I totally understand what you are saying but I can still say the same thing you are saying. I'm not old and I am still young enough to go to bars at the weekend or just go out for a nice meal with my hubby once a week. Now, let's say I went out for a drink (which I don't drink at all and never have) to a few bars or went out to a club once a week. That would cost me more than £120 probably and if I went out drinking and for a meal out once a week with my hubby, it would be considerably more than that. In the space of 4 years playing BDO it still works out way cheaper than if I did that...
     
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  15. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    23k is already an high amount of money for a game BUT we're talking about pleasure, if you do not fall into addiction and you can spend this, no problem.
    But there's still a negative effect even if you spend on cosmetics in BDO : these cosmetics have become linked with paying shortcuts.

    If I look at the CS, I would have no problem spending money if I can get some good looking costumes. The problem is, the overall quality of the costumes is not really impressive but above all, the fact that you can melt them encourages laziness. Costumes are selling based on this mechanisms, mixed with some subtle "created rarity", less subtle reuse of some older costumes, along with coupons.
    But in the end, Devs can't know if players are buying because they like the costume, or if they're simply melting, reselling... And Devs don't even care. Why would they, if the costume is still selling?

    That's a simple example of how the current "paying shortcut phenomenon" (P2W is too outdated to really define the situation as you don't even win anymore) can impact every aspect of the game, and destroy it little by little.
     
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  16. Atreius

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    They already get benefits with the things they buy. That's enough.
     
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  17. JSXShadow

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    Exactly this. People think that, just because a sum of money sounds like alot..if you break it down over the years it turns out to be not as much. Excessive Smokers need to ask themselves if it is worth spending 10+ Bucks a day for smoking alone, 3650 Dollars alone in smoking per year...then you order take-out instead of cooking fresh, go to parties every week, maybe twice, meet up for meals in general. For the average income person, 23k in 4 years truly is nothing at all. Merely pocket change.

    However, it is alot to spend on BDO and you must have burned alot of that money for nothing, because of RNG. Even with 23k...you can't just go and buy full PEN C20 like some people imagine, BDO is much too expensive for that. I personally come from both worlds, I do like to spend some money (mainly on VP, Kama, etc) and a few times on enhancement stuff and gambling boxes (ya its an addiction but its under corntrol). I have spend a total of 800 Euro on BDO so far and yeah, that is not much at all but I also enjoy grinding quite a bit. I always did. But I am also in a very convinient situation that I can even play at work, because I have a monitoring job (IT) that pays well but ya, if nothing happens...well lets say its boring af and there is nothing wrong with a bit of mindless grinding then. In the 200+ hours I have spent at star's I am still at an average of 223m per hour, so exchanging 20 Bucks for 200m silver does not appeal that much to much, especially since I wanna reach lv64 eventually as well.

    People need to realize tho that this is WHAT I WANT. This works FOR ME because I chose that way. If I only wanted to PvP all day and open-world/NW at that I would prolly invest more and grind less as well and there is nothing wrong with that at all, especially in BDO. If this game was more revolving about permanent social interactions, less channels (or none at all) and/or less grindspot/more open pvp...then all those people complaining about whale advantages might have a point. Why? because it would be nearly impossible to ignore them and they could play out their advantages for real. As it is now however, if you already grinded up to Softcap...the chances to meet someone open world that is that hardcore overgeared are close to non-existent and anyone that tells me otherwise is either unlucky or doesnt play the game much. Sure, in NWs it's worse...but the amount of people effected by that in comparison to the whole playerbase is also so tiny..doesn't really matter. Especially since NWs are a shetshow anyways, not only because of gear difference but ya, its part of it.

    So the realistic impact of whales is low here in BDO. As for the whole monetization system...ya, it will prolly get worse and worse over time, but that is due to the stupidity of the playerbase as a whole. Ofc a company opens their hands if ppl are willing to spend, why wouldnt they? Also, the people decide if they wanna spend the money on customes and stuff (even tho I never would cause the value to silver ratio is hypergarbage), no one forces them. It's their own delusional needs that make them buy it. Yes, Humans are easily manipulated but I would hope a majority of adults is able to resist those cheap artificial urges, alas, I usually stand corrected. BDOs monetization system isn't even that bad to begin with, much much less cancerous than other games and even in P2P games like WoW, FF14, ESO..there people that spend additional thousands of dollars on top of the subscription.

    To give a different view on this whole topic:

    Imagine there was no possibility to progress with real money at all. So, you fall in love with the game and play it extensively, then you get a new job, have to work 6 to 8 and are completely exhausted, you are maybe able to play for 2 hours max a day, make that 1 or even less depending on a day if you have pets, family, other responsibilities. Now you love that game and you already achieved alot but now you will fall behind and are de facto unable to progress with what you love. For some people, esp. those that work alot...a huge part of their social life is yes, at work, but also very often found in online communities. Latter is still the biggest appeal to MMORPGs for MANY. But can you really play with your friends now that you will fall behind slowly but surely? Even if you manage to arrange some dates to do stuff together...all your gear will be outdated and you will effectively become a burden ingame and slow everything down for the others. No one wants that. I am not personally affected by this, but I know a few ppl that are.

    So now you might say, welp, if you dont have time to play a game then just dont play it. Accept it. Yes. That is a possibility. Just as it is a possibility to accept it when someone passes you on the highway with a 300k$+ supercar or oneshots you with their CSed gear. Above was just an example ofc and I know there are ppl with limitless time and money that are also human trash and just like to annoy the heck out of people but man...those people especially are so few and far in between..can't we just ignore them and be happy with what we have? Can't we all just enjoy the game and simply ignore what others do because its not our god damn business?

    Also, Gold sellers are P2W as well, tho people tend to forget that. P2W is EVERYWHERE. Literally. There is no escape and there wont be. The only course of action is acceptance. Humanity longs for shortcuts in life ever since the first one of us took breath. It is part of us. On top of that, BDO doesnt have content with a paywall behind it. Anything is achievable without using cash at all. Everything, literally. It might be more work yes, ofc it is, that's the whole point. Its pay for convinience after all, you see?
     
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  18. Chaos Ronin

    Chaos Ronin RyunokoDynasty Mystic 61 NA

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    This is the best comment in this thread or any crying thread I've read about "p2w" since i started reading the forums. What you have said is unarguably correct and I fully agree with everything :)
     
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  19. RandomHajile

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    I guess the problem with this is believing you're not blessed in some way and that other people haven't worked just as hard and ultimately were never able to break free of where they started.

    I remember my grandma chewing the ish out of chicken bones we got from KFC, yelling at me because "I left meat." That's kind of more of a compelling argument than... so now I whale. TO ME, but what do I know.
     
  20. JSXShadow

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    Well unless you live in africa and have to fight to survive even the basic needs, like Hunger and so on, I would say we are all blessed. But humans do not live in 1 reality. Each individual or sometimes groups of individuals live in their own, artificial space. So being blessed or not is extremely subjective. On a real standpoint, like I said, anyone that doesnt have to struggle not to die from not being able to eat or drink is very much blessed. Anything else are artificial problem created by our dif. societies. For some, earning 1k cash per month is alot and they feel blessed. For some the same applies to 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k...an there are some that look at those numbers and feel like when you accidentially drop a penny out of your pocket, doesnt matter at all.
     
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