1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Rework Forward Guard

Discussion in 'Valkyrie' started by ODB3698, Jul 1, 2019.

  1. ODB3698

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    459
    I think FG needs to be completely reworked. Its clear that the devs have long since abandoned FG as a viable survival paradigm...as no classes since warrior and valkyrie have depended on this mechanic. The devs have shown clearly that they don't have any solutions to actually making it work in the iframe/evasion/SA era...yet they still throw around phrases like valkyrie being a "defensive hero"...when that couldn't be further from reality. FG fails hard versus iframes by basic logic. Let's start with the "F" in FG...forward. Anything attacking with area of effect, anything attacking at an angle, anything attacking from behind...FG is useless. Let's compare that to any of the same scenarios for an iframe user...zero damage taken in any of the same situations. Let's compare crowd control effects of iframes versus FG...the "i" in iframe means invincible by the way. Just to simplify...invincible means nothing can touch/harm you...including crowd control effects (CC). The only time FG stops CC...is when you hold perfectly still in guard...which is like dropping the soap in anything except 1v1. Next we have the fact that FG can just be overpowered by high damage and you have zero defense then. It is impossible to overpower an iframe...keyword is invincible. Next issue is the stagger effect with mass attacks against FG...that locks you in the guard animation..unable to execute any other actions..until you guard is overpowered/destroyed...at which time you die. Needless to say...that is also impossible with iframes...keyword is invincible.

    What I propose as a solution is several changes:

    First, change it from being durability based to being duration based...like stamina. Make the guard effect run out quickly if you try to turtle in it (literally a few seconds at the most). Let the current visual shield remaining durability effect stay a reflection of the resource and its recovery...just let it be a very limited resource with a fast recovery method.

    Second, drop the "forward" from FG and let it be just as functional as an iframe.

    Third, add either SA or the resistance buff to it to provide equal CC protection.

    Fourth, drop the stagger effect from it.

    This would be a solution that would eliminate the inherent flaws/failures in FG. This would require no changes to iframes. This would eliminate the perception that somehow Valkyrie is a tank and therefore deserves to be less capable of basic things like movement...because there would be no more turtling or unlimited defense in 1v1. This would essentially put "Guard" on par with iframes...only micromanaged via resource.
     
  2. Eminescu

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2016
    Messages:
    85
    Likes Received:
    77
    If you expect class balance, skills re-work or anything related to PVP in this game.... u come to the wrong neighborhood.
    The latest update just prove it. Release a class with 5 skills, autistic and boring gameplay, just to milk the whales who will purchase LT/Bag slots, costumes, etc. (Let me grab pop-corn while white knights will show up with "sHai iS a SuPporT cLaSs")
    Look at the class updates since...whenever u want. All you will see will be something like: "Fixed Sorceress underwear", "Fixed idle animation while wearing X fashion suit", "Fixed earrings fashion for Warrior to not clip" or "Fixed unnatural wave animation of Mystic while facerolling the keyboard"...
    I use block with Valk only to dodge some telegraphed attacks or if i have luck to time the block with a random frontal attack.
     
    Fearless V likes this.
  3. Artorias_Dusk

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    454
    Likes Received:
    280
    FG is really important for classes like warrior and valyrie. They really have to rework it that way. I fully support this.
     
  4. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    479
    Tbh, its appalling they still haven't balanced classes, they were doing good for a while there.. then they took a **** on a few classes and wiped their asses with our money.

    I don't get how they can leave the Valk ****ed over for so long, especially when there is so much ranged CC.

    Feels more like a North Korean MMO and we're stuck in the hard labor camps, mining our selves to death for balance. While dictator iframe jong-un sits there nice fat and plump, full of iframes while staying toasty from all the balance being burnt.
     
    Naho, Ninnghizhidda, ODB3698 and 2 others like this.
  5. Wollbert

    Wollbert Ranger 62 EU

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,139
    Likes Received:
    923
    are you sane
     
    R.Prescott likes this.
  6. Fearless V

    Fearless V TranscendentSoul Witch 61 NA

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2017
    Messages:
    2,554
    Likes Received:
    1,881
    I highly agree with the poster I'm currently quoting!

    Actually just look at most of the last few class updates. Nothing to improve class balance. Hell in some cases like Striker, made OP classes even more powerful than it already was. When people was making videos of themselves literally face rolling their keyboard to kill other players. Than they made that class even more strong. Then in the last patch they thought it funny to nerf Ranger again. A friggin class that was already suffering and considered bottom tier in all aspects of this game. AND THEY NERFED HER EVEN MORE!

    I agree PvPers who come to this game for PvP action. Have came to the wrong game. They are better off going to other MMOs that host PvP as a side dish. Better yet they are better off going to a actual PvP genre. Because PvP in this genre has been completely declining over these past few years.
     
  7. ODB3698

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    459
    Is iframe not 360 degree protection? Are you at least semi conscious enough to see that?

    Well it would be hilarious to see them make iframes only protect you from the front like forward guard. Your hypocrisy would be overflowing then. I would imagine no more snarky comments then.
     
  8. Wollbert

    Wollbert Ranger 62 EU

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,139
    Likes Received:
    923
    what are you talking about. iframe is iframe. do you already have SA on your block or not.
     
  9. ODB3698

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    459
    No we do not. Be informed before you come into another class forum with snarky comments. We have resistance...only on our completely stationary guard.
     
  10. Wollbert

    Wollbert Ranger 62 EU

    Joined:
    May 28, 2016
    Messages:
    2,139
    Likes Received:
    923
    at the end its the same and absolutly enough for your class. you basically want lingering SA back.
     
  11. R.Prescott

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    262
    We essentially have SA on block, it says resistance but resist caps at 60% in PvP and we will never be cc'd in block, making it SA. It has no DR sure, but barely any SA skills have DR on them anymore. Also, if you want to make fg not frontal only anymore, that is no longer a frontal guard and that doesn't really make sense. The biggest problem with frontal guard in this game is not the mechanic itself but the awful servers, and this should be addressed first, but we all know it never will so why even bother? At the absolute most, the only change I see as potentially viable is making it so that frontal guard doesn't have a durability. Keep blocks with dura so you can't just sit in them all day, but make fg skills not drain the dura anymore, this should reduce the gap in effectiveness of consecutive fg skills vs consecutive iframes.
     
    #11 R.Prescott, Jul 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2019
    Jexz, ViktoryiaV and Naho like this.
  12. bob349

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    267
    This is the biggest one in my opinion.

    And Frontal Guard added to Promptness like it used to have super armor(no cooldown).
     
  13. ODB3698

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    403
    Likes Received:
    459
    Your ignorance of our class mechanics and your eagerness to make dismissive assumptions makes your presence here pointless. It is clearly not the same. Resistance...only when holding perfectly still is not the same as having SA. SA is applied to a variety of different skills...for the majority of classes. A large number of these skills do not require zero mobility. In fact, SA is present on movement iframe skills for many of these classes. I'm not even going to dignify your attempt to bring up abandoned mechanics...in order to distract from a valid request for equal current mechanics.

    Yes, the stagger effect is really annoying. It feels like a flavor effect that ended up just causing problems

    There is a good reason that there has not been a single FG class added since warr/valk. That's 3 years btw. The most glaring reason being how much better 360 degree protection is...in the middle of a group of enemies. The forward only aspect is a failure to adapt. The idea of turtling is also a failed concept in this damage driven game. When you try to combine the above two failed concepts, with the additional fail of limited mobility...then you get the square peg in the round hole we have today.

    You say guard not being forward only, makes no sense, but being invincible from all directions does make sense?
     
    #13 ODB3698, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 2, 2019
  14. Kenwulf

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    577
    Why are we being called the FG class btw? We have like 0.5 sec FG on our awakening skill tree via purification. And since we don't have i-frames to regen block, blocking with main hand shield is not an option. We are just a straight out all offense glass cannon class with no meaningful defense at all.
     
    ODB3698 likes this.
  15. Muhaha

    Muhaha Valkyrie 62 NA

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2016
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    479
    Tbh, I don't think Valk really needs all that, but she does need better protection on movement, which should hopefully be solved with the upcoming buff. The stagger and block lock need to be removed for sure, but idk bout the rest.

    I'd be cool with them letting us cancel Cel Spear with Enslar and we follow where the spear lands (even if its not on a target), SA on Flow: Lucem Fluxem, and making Enslar into an iframe at the start of the skill and SA coming down. But they'd have to nerf our support abilities pretty hard to justifying giving us anything more than this. (unless the coming buff doesn't solve the movement issues, guess we'll see.)
    ^
    Wouldn't be broken, here is why: The skill before the flow has no protections (as of right now its not really usable in pvp, you can hotkey it, which would give us a protected CC, currently have like 2, just counter, and canceling Wave of Light with guard),
    Cel Spear into Enslar, landing where the spear lands could hurt more than it helps, plus cel spear is unprotected (would follow the first spear so it'd be obviously telegraphed),
    and Enslar is currently a SA teleport and the iframe is only after the character leaves the screen for .000001s, so SA going up and down. It'd give us a legit iframe, But we would STILL be susceptible to grabs upon landing. (As it is now, we have pretty much 0 iframes, while EVERY class has an iframe, most have an iframe every 0-3s, and those that cry we have guard, every class can S walk or sit in perma guard some how.)

    But thats just my opinion.
     
    #15 Muhaha, Jul 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
    Itan86 likes this.
  16. R.Prescott

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    262
    Yes, Frontal Guard was designed to only provide protection from in front (hence the name), while i-frames were designed to provide periods of invulnerability, I have no problem with these names and what they do - they make perfect sense. Why would you call something a "Frontal" Guard if it provided protection from all directions? That to me makes no sense. Additionally, FG is on many damage skills and some CCs, while i-frames are almost exclusively on movement only, you have to consider this too.

    Regardless, you could just rename it but the point I'm actually trying to address is that I disagree that FG skills should be 360 degree, because you're forgetting that classes without grabs exist in this game and there would be so little counter-play for them to a point where I would get bored. When you're in SA, they can punish with damage, when you're in FG they can punish by outmaneuvering you and going behind. They can't punish i-frames but there are very few skills in this game that are i-frame + damage, so that's not really a problem. If you did this, I how on earth would they punish FG skills? Valk has so much FG that if it was 360 degree it would be dumb; our block would make us invulnerable to damage and cc from all directions until someone hits you with enough damage, in which time you could just grab them safely from the block, and that is completely stupid. Stop trying to make Valk op, I do not want to play an op class again because its just depressing when it gets nerfed into the ground afterwards because PA have no sense of what's reasonable whatsoever. If the servers were better and we could rely on our FG facing where we actually put it in relation to a skill then it would be fine.

    The place I agree that FG is completely outclassed on is on movement, but then again, Valk has plenty of things that other classes don't have, why should we ask for everything the rest have without giving them anything in return? Personally, with the change to DLC coming tomorrow, I have very few issues with the current state of Valk and most of those are down to inconsistencies and bugs rather than the straight up strength of the class itself. The main problem I have left is the block stagger you addressed at the start, I completely agree that this is stupid; why should someone run up and stand in my face doing damage skills, but me not be able to react with a grab? This should be removed imo
     
  17. Kenwulf

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2016
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    577
    Valk has so many FG? What? Where? Out of the 5 characters I play valkyrie probably has the least amount of FG. At least on useful skills.
     
  18. R.Prescott

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2017
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    262
    I actually said "so much FG", I didn't mean a huge total number of skills but more as in it being on a number of the things you use often; the movement is almost entirely FG, and block is pretty huge part of the class - one part of that mechanic is a frontal guard. And like you said, we don't even have that many FGs, imagine how strong classes with even more FG skills would be if these changes were made.
     

Share This Page