1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Simple solution to Grabs

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Exitious1, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. alex20081

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    127
    Likes Received:
    23
    I am afraid this devs.
    1.they said 'we want to reduce the gap between grab and no grab classes'. Result - grab combo is easy to do and has no counter.
    2.They said 'we dont want oneshot pvp'. Result - deleting renown score (-60DR), again 1shot pvp, mass pvp is dead.
    3.They said 'skill should not have CC and protection'. Result - Half of classes still have such skills in 1 stand and can abuse SA constantly (striker, mystic).
    4. They said 'invulnerability will be apply only if character dissapears'. Result - we got only 1 nerf for sorc (storming crow INV to SA), no chage to someone else.
    Smooth balance...
     
  2. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    1,780

    I like number 1, the only problem I have with it is I frame heavy classes would be almost impossible to grab since they usually cancel out their attacks into I frames before you get a chance to counter them. This would be really tough on classes that have shorter grab ranges and have to spend time moving close enough to grab even when enemies are able to hit them with their “melee” skills (*cough* valk *cough*)


    #2 shouldn’t even be an option. Protected grabs shouldn’t exist PERIOD. Having a protected execution (like when zerker or striker holds someone) is fine, but the starting animation being protected is retarded.

    I personally heavily support the last option of just giving classes without a viable I frame an I frame just so that they can do so.
     
  3. levinano

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    252
    Since this can be considered a nerf to grab classes I'd think that an equivalent nerf to iframe classes might be needed for balance such as increase in stamina cost for iframe skills, though I wonder, since iframe skills like Night Crow and Ghost Step already takes twice the amount of stamina as skills like Chase.

    Either that or an equivalent increase in all classes with iframes. In other words, classes like Valks and Warriors would have 1 or 2 more iframes on movement skills/attack skills to put everybody on par with iframe heavy classes. Result of this is balance. Although it isn't a strong nerf to grabs exactly (they'll still be OP on paper), but it'll be a heavy nerf to the grab meta, which, is needed, imo.
     
  4. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    4,744
    all your changes still dont help some classes. and add more tools to other classes.
     
  5. levinano

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    252
    Such as? I can make adjustments to the proposals based on problems.
     
  6. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    4,744
    well, if a grab is 0,5 seconds, some classes dont really care if they get grabbed on the start or on the end of the animation. (try guessing which ones yourself :D). then u would give new iframes to wars and valks. dont see how that would help my class tbh, except to die faster vs them.

    unless u r proposing iframe that would animation cancel skills and are willing to give it to witchzards also. then we gucci. ;)
     
  7. levinano

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    252
    By everyone I meant all classes except iframe heavy classes. This would mean something like a higher stamina cost, but iframe with CD on skills like Magical Evasion.

    Still though, imo, if Witch/Wizard has an edge in terms of long range AoE damage trade skills, or close range AoE protected CCs, I think it's fine for "mobile" classes to have an edge in 1v1s and have more iframes. Imagine Witch/Wizard, high damage, iframe SA FG protected, great in large scale and still badass in 1v1s, where would that leave 1v1 classes that aren't meant to be able to do anything in large scale?

    Still I don't think Witch/Wizard should go up against a Ninja and have teleport baited out then killed immediately if they tried to do anything by by getting grabbed.
    What I mean is, yes on Magical Evasion but no on skills like Earth's Response.
     
    #87 levinano, Dec 23, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2018
  8. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    4,744
    one of my propositions in some other topics was to put iframe on magical evasion and its awakening counterpart animation (on a certain cooldown ofc). thing is, it would still need to be able to cancel animations to be grab avoidance tool due to most of our skills being long casting "grab me" signs.
     
  9. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2018
    Messages:
    1,114
    Likes Received:
    877
    if you remove grab, then remove the mobility of other classes, because with no grab there is no way to catch some classes as they dash and iframe all around you, not everyone is a ranged class with ranged cc
     
  10. Rizzly

    Rizzly Berserker 62

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2017
    Messages:
    1,605
    Likes Received:
    1,603
    Im all in for reworking grabs from zerker but give us a way to cc our opponents in return...anything to make this class less grab reliant. Currently our only cc consists of grabs, the other ccs are only used before grabbing someone lol
     
    Draconnix likes this.
  11. thdsm

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    376
    There is no need to tamper with grabs in the current state of the game. They are needed to prevent SA classes from camping in their SA and only being vulnerable to damage trading, which isn't what BDO is about. I mean, it could be done of course, but it would require a fundamental rework, an even bigger one than the previous "cc rebalancing". Grab engages may feel cheesy in duels, but once you experiment a bit you find out that they can be baited out, dodged, iframe-desynced and rng-resisted. Some classes are slightly better equipped than others for this, but every class has tools to deal with grabs. Learn how to use them.

    This defeatist attitude comes from the faulty idea that your class needs some help. It doesn't. There's plenty of wizards that do very well in duels. Learn to play.
     
  12. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    4,744
    are we discussing my personal dueling ability or classes dueling potential? frankly, i dont think we can (or should) discuss much on the first topic, but we sure can on the second.

    also, guy proposed a change, i gave my opinion as to why i like or dislike certain suggestions. which is kinda better input than "l2p"
     
    Fearless V, Rizzly and levinano like this.
  13. levinano

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    252
    Even iframe/SA rotating classes like Mystic, Striker, Wizard, Ninja, Sorc, can be countered without grabs. How else do you think non-grab classes could manage PvP :p

    Anyways, neither my proposal nor Nayashe's initial proposal removes grabs as a role to counter classes/players that camp SAs, it just makes things more fair and allow for more counter play as opposed to a charge in, worry about nothing, and almost guarantee CC. Like Netreiam, I don't mind grabs being protected at all, if it connects that is. The fact that even if you bait out a grab but you can't counterattack and punish it makes some grabs too OP.

    Yes, they can, it's definitely possible to do but more difficult than it should be as I've mentioned before, due to technological limitations, it's impossible to react to someone trying to grab you, but it is possible to preemptively count the CD (by matching it with one of your own skill CD) and bait it out by constant movement (desync and RNG CC will play in the favor of the baiter).
    However, also like I've said before, if they don't use their grab (people who know to save it until they see a clear rooted SA attack), you'll just run out of stamina waiting for something that'll never come, then when you run out of stamina is when a grab, or any other CC, will come haunt you.

    My suggestion is not to remove/nerf grabs to the ground, just to make it so that it's not the case that the only counter play to grabs is "keep moving without attacking till they grab" and "iframes"
     
    Netreiam likes this.
  14. thdsm

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    555
    Likes Received:
    376
    We are discussing the class, but your personal ability is relevant, because your complaints come from your experience. If you are talking about wizards needing 1v1 buffs, then you either a) aren't using him properly b) use him properly, but can't reflect fairly on your performance (i.e. expect to steamroll everyone else) or c) use him properly and can reflect, but complain for the sake of it, because everyone else cries about their class and demands buffs.

    The only way to deal with SA rotating classes is by outtrading them through SA, but that's shallow, stupid and not in the spirit of BDO. Also gl doing that against a witchard with high AP. And I'm not sure why you bring ninja and sorc into this, because they are not the classes that you normally need grab engages for.

    Not every grab is protected on fail, in fact most of them are either unprotected in general or unprotected on miss. I agree that grabs being protected on miss sounds a bit stupid, but as long as it is impossible to stack enough resist ignore to guarantee cc landing, I wish that every grab was protected on miss.

    First of all, you can react if you position yourself a small distance from your opponent and watch their movement, when they dash to you is a good early warning. They may choose to not use the grab and you can't really react to the grab attempt itself, but that's fine because it just a part of the mind game between players. It is normal for fast paced action games to have things you can't directly react to but have to anticipate instead.

    If we went with your suggestion and made grab cc delayed, it would also make them bad against moving SA skills, and classes like mystic a nightmare to deal with. As for the original idea in the thread, I don't see how that can be made fair without significant reworks for several classes.
     
  15. levinano

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Messages:
    435
    Likes Received:
    252
    I play a class that doesn't have grabs or SA trade abilities (until perhaps 270+ AP), in other words, SAs to us are pretty much iframes, as we can't punish and combo from it. That's why I bring up Ninja and Sorc as they're SA + iframe heavy, while also being quite mobile. By the "SA rotation = invulnerable unless against grabs" logic, any class that can rotate SAs and iframes, a Maehwa can't defeat them. How do you think Maes fight other Blades? Witch/Wizards? Ninja? Kuno? Sorc? Mystic? Striker? Pitch a good Mae against any of these classes and the KD ratio could probably still be around 1:1, if not, 2:3, and not 0.
    My point is that grabs aren't the only thing that takes care of protection rotating classes, you just have to learn to watch for openings instead of waiting on a grab CD and go in and win.

    And again, no one is proposing that grabs should be removed, just slightly reworked so there can be some sort of viable counter play that players (besides the top godly players) can do. In both the OP's and my proposal, grabs would still have the same functionality as now and you can still grab SA classes all you want.

    I do understand the frustration with RNG CCs though, I agree it shouldn't be a thing, or at least you shouldn't be able to have it about 10% imo :/ Though that's a whole different beast to take down for another time. But if you wish that all grabs are protected on miss, then I wish all my CCs that root me in place for even half a second has SA.

    1. "Small distance" as in one dash away? In which case refer to when I talked about reaction time and hardware latency. It's physically impossible to avoid a grab like that. In no world are you going to dodge (not RNG evade) a Tamer's cross country grab who's 1 or 1.5 LBPs away unless you're already moving, in which case it's not baiting, if the Tamer is initiating the thought train of grabbing you despite seeing that you're moving then they're not playing "well," they're YOLOing and relying on an OP mechanic too much.

    2. "Small distance" as in 2+ dashes away? In which case like I said before, it works, and that's how I've always been fighting grab classes, but what that means is that if you're counting their CD, when you know it's up you're going to have to keep distance, which of course they can just keep coming at you without using that grab (you can't even count CDs on Striker and Ninja since there's 2 of them, forcing you to constantly try to keep distance). Mix CCs in that chasing sequence and you corner the person dodging for the grab and they'll run out of stamina long before you do, then you just go in for a protected grab and you win. It's not about anticipation or even anticipating the anticipation, it's about having a weapon in your arsenal that puts you in such a huge advantage over the other person that requires the other person to be more skilled to fight you. Sure you can say that games are like that, that no game is balanced, but if we see an unbalance, why not suggest to make that more balanced? Even if my proposal goes through grabs are still the strongest CC to have but it allows for action combat and anticipation, risk, and punishment. How's running in without a worry and CC -> Combo -> Delete, actiony, epic, or fun?

    Right now fighting Mystics Strikers is like if I ran at you with a knife and you have a sledgehammer... but you can swing that hammer instantly, faster than my knife... and that hammer also has a shield attached to it -.-
    My proposal just makes it so that it removes the shield and magic on that sledge hammer so that if you smack me with it, sure you win, but at least I have the possibility of out playing you by making you do a slow swing then fast shank you.

    It would also give movement based classes a fair advantage. Why should you be able to grab moving targets in the first place? If they're moving directly towards you, or you predicted where they're moving to, then I'd understand (and you'd still be able to do it even with the delay), but away or sideways?
    If you're used to catch a moving target with a grab that just proves how useless reacting or trying to avoid grabs is. As a grabless class, if I lose against a SA class or grab class I'm told to "git gud," so shouldn't that advice apply too if this change was implemented? "Git gud" as in get used to the latency in grabs and get used to not having the king of CCs in your arsenal and start having to predict, act, and react?
     
    Netreiam likes this.
  16. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2018
    Messages:
    6,546
    Likes Received:
    4,744

    im not expecting to steamroll everyone neither im crying about buffs. IF the topic is about things related to the matter i will discuss it tho, from perspective of my (mostly main) class. isnt it the point of this forum?

    and here we are... how much can some classes anticipate and react even if they do think the grab is coming? how many times? how easy it is to bait them, since if they make a wrong assumption, they are probably dead. :)
     
    Netreiam likes this.
  17. KunoIRL

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2018
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    49
    Resistances should not be in the game period, in pve, sure keep it but in pvp it provides an rng mechanic to a competitive aspect of the game that's unneeded and quite stupid. A dice roll should not decide if you win or lose, since this game is cc/combo based. No class should have to suffer and lose because of it. Since the CC//protected ability changes some classes have borderline useless abilities that aren't worth attempting anymore, mostly because of resists. RNG downsmashes should not be a thing for any class. 100% or nothing, cap them at 1 or 2 per class as well.

    As far as grabs go, imo no one should have 2 grabs other than zerker (due to it's current state favoring them, but still cap at 2) so that if you do outplay the grab, you now know what your options are, more clearly, imo. Downside about removing protection from certain grabs is they become even worse in large scale. Getting killed in 1-2 seconds in SA is not uncommon already. The classes that feel really strong already is the classes that feel stronger with grabs, Mystic, Ninja mostly. Striker and Kuno are quite strong but not as strong as their counterparts. I think the pvp game balance goes well beyond just grabs, Vacuums should count as a 1.0 CC towards the counter and shouldn't be able to be ani canceled. SA dmg reduction should be buffed for certain skills but not overly because SA trading shouldn't be something to shift towards as a whole, more of a survival and not get cc'd or legit 1 shot thing.
     
  18. Netreiam

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes Received:
    1,780


    Definitely agree rng resistance is ******** that needs to go. Downsmash though as a CC extender I think is fine to have RNG on as long as they cap out at 2.

    Also agree that more than 1 grab is dumb. But in large scale you typically don’t grab anyway because AoE damage is usually more valuable if there are so many targets that you can’t grab safely. If there were to be classes that keep a protected grab I would say it should only be zerker and striker because they are supposed to be disrupters, and striker would have to have his protected grab slowed down like Levinano suggested so that it isn’t brain dead OP 1v1.

    SA doesn’t need more damage reduction outright though imo. Some slower SA should have them just because they are slow, but considering the DP rework and removal of renown, people are just squishy because everyone is essentially a glass cannon. If everyone was a hybrid damage would be a lot lower.

    And as annoying as vacuums can be the reason they don’t count as CC is because your char is still able to be controlled. Once you get KDed or stiffed your completely helpless, but when vacuumed you can still I frame, block, SA, what have you. While it can **** you over, so can global 30% slows or mana drains.
     
  19. Exitious1

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2016
    Messages:
    393
    Likes Received:
    208
    My original proposal was to keep it so grabs could be a counter to SA but not FGs. If I'm block attacks I should be able to guard against a grab imo. Its become way to easy for grab classes these days. Some classes should be reworked a little to be better equipped with faster cc options to land stiffs and stuns etc.. It wouldnt be so bad if you werent able to be combo'd off of a grab. Then it would force ppl to catch their opponent with a stiff first.

    I know you were responding to someone else. Just wanted to point out the purpose or original concept of the post.

    Changing grabs to a 2.0 cc rather than 1.0 would be another method. So they can either use it as a catch but not able to combo off it, or they can use it as a extended cc option. Like stiff 0.7 into stun 1.0 into grab 2.0 to allow the limit to be passed. Otherwise if they just did grab or stiff into grab that would end the combo.
     
  20. BboydD

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2018
    Messages:
    453
    Likes Received:
    163
    Add some grab resistance crystal+ villa buff (10%) and you will be at 60% grab resis
     

Share This Page