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Simple solution to Grabs

Discussion in 'PvP' started by Exitious1, Aug 1, 2018.

  1. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    doesnt help that much vs warriors, zerks and strokers. you need more than 60% (also, their villa kinda negates your villa)
     
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  2. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    i agree, lets remove PA totally, put witchzard dps on par with other classes, add some anicancels and mobility (iframe on pve dodge on some cd) and we gucci :D
     
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  3. Exitious1

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    Which means pretty much nothing in thr face of warrior and zerker who have natural 30% ignore to grab. Then count villas ignore of 5%, precision gems x2 20%, ignore offhand gems if they use those a potential 20%, and glove gems that ignore grab resist as well lol. Plus cron food or valencia meal 4% ignore, alchemy stone at sturdy is 4% ignore.

    So what all did the "resistance" setup of urs prove? Lol
     
  4. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

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    doing something like removing grab which is a pivotal in class balance would break the game for some classes, musa would be the best pvp class in the game with a change like that, they have it all except a grab
     
  5. CodeBreaker

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    Or just make grab breakable and give it a certain frame window to make the grab breakable instead of praying for rng. Rng in pvp shouldn‘t be a thing.
     
  6. v.klishev

    v.klishev Striker 62 EU

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    Why do you keep equating striker grabs with warr and zerk?
    Unlike the latter 2 our grab "buff" that we are supposed to have on Hellbreak never worked and ignores no resistance or improves land rate.

    Tested numerous times over the past close to an year and it has had no effect whatsoever on grab success.
    We only manage to land grabs consistently due to crystals/buffs. No free 30% resist ignore for us (unless they actually made that work in the past 1 month)
     
  7. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    what i was told is that it does indeed buff your grab coming AFTER u have failed the one which gives buff. so, if u fail the one, click the other one, get buffed grab chance on it.
     
  8. farsay

    farsay Mystic 62 NA

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    if i have an archer kiting all around me and throwing nukes, or a sorc iframing, or a musa dashing around, you bet i am gonna use and i NEED my grab, otherwise its fighting on their terms and you are just a free kills, no thank you, some classes need their grab,.
     
  9. Pigmanfu

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    Silly thread. Grabs are easy to see coming and avoid. Most classes can knock you down and keep you on the ground while they combo you to death but grabs are the problem? Play more and pvp more and fight grab classes a
    Lot and see when they are coming. Learn to Iframe or quick move back or left and right (grab has such a small hit box).
    I guess in short, play better.
     
  10. LoganSilver

    LoganSilver LoganSilver Mystic 61 NA

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    Interesting. As a person with a geared post softcap 61 mystic pvp alt that I pvp with almost exclusively outside of siege / node wars, I would absolutely disagree. However, it seems like you have grown as a player based on ...


    So now you use grabs! Great! You have grown as a pvp player.



    As for the main post:

    As for grabs specifically, I don’t know if any of the recommended changes will fix the issue without more changes. Making FG immune to block is problematic as some classes have better FGs than others, and S block would make a char near immune to grab.

    Making block a 2.0 CC counter will hurt some classes more than others. Classes with access to more down smashes will be much better able to chain CCs. Not to mentioned, geared players will have no change to their ability to 1 combo while less geared players will struggle to 1 combo, especially if on a class with limited down smashes / air smashes.


    Grab can be counterplayed by some classes. Good players are hard to grab in 1v1s, but this difficultly does not apply to every class. Some classes, like witchards are easy to grab. Making a counterplay option that doesn’t work mid cast of an ability won’t fix the issue.


    Getting rid of grabs is not the answer as well. Some classes need grabs more than others. In a world without grabs, classes like Musas would be oppressively strong when geared.


    Making grabs unprotected is an absolute must. I don’t see how an ability that goes through all protection other than iframes can be protected.


    It’s easy to get overly focused on what a class can or should do. Yes, some classes excel at one thing and not another. OTher classes suck at everything. The classes in the latter category need the most pressing help. But optimally, all classes should be viable in all types of gameplay. It’s fine if a ninja can beat a witch in a 1v1 given equal skill and gear and a witch does the same in large scale. Differences are good. But extreme differences, where one class dominates the other, should not exist in PvE or any type of pvp.


    I think a good first change is making grab unprotected. I don’t exactly know where we should go from there. But I’d be very careful about supporting drastic changes without thinking them through and maybe even testing them out.
     
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  11. v.klishev

    v.klishev Striker 62 EU

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    Regretably that doesn't work either. Buffed grab will still fail just as much as unbuffed. Also being able to cast the MH grab in time after failing the awakened grab (which is unprotected and when failing throws you in another unprotected backstep animation, The "buff" lasts 1.5s btw) doesn't hapen in real combat in 99.9% of the cases. For testing purposes i had to fail the awakened grab by grabbing air while target was behind me so the backstep put me in grab range to immediately cast MH grab. And result was there was no improvement in success rate to speak of.

    The supposed 30% buffed grab would still fail roughly 1/5 on a person with 20% base resist (where in theory it should never fail. If i put 20% resist ignore vs 20% resist target (via crystals) grab never fails.
    I will make a point to rerun the tests after the holidays and verify if they haven't "fixed" it in the past month w/o any documentation in patch notes, but I very much doubt it.

    People like to throw numbers around just because they dislike our monkey business, but that isn't always accurate. Same with the random % numbers ppl like to throw around for our higher magic DR.
     
    #111 v.klishev, Dec 28, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2018
  12. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    dont know man, striker dude i had been trying it out with didnt seem to have much problems with grabbing me after he used it, even when i put talis helm. maybe it was just rng, as always ;D
     
  13. v.klishev

    v.klishev Striker 62 EU

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    RNG is always there. Which is why when testing i normalize pretty much everything to get a more clear result.
    - Testing with 0 ignore vs different resistance percentages to get a baseline
    - testing with equal ignore vs resist
    - testing with more ignore than resist and so on.

    If you fight a properly buffed striker depending on his gems you will need 30-40% resist to just negate crystals+buffs ignore resists (not mentioning the trihards that use ignore gems in offhand :D )

    When accounting for RNG and eliminating it I haven't been able to see any benefit from that buff. But for the sake of having up to date results I will re-run tests when i get the time. Defo dont want to spread misinformation myself, god knows we have enough of it around here.
     
  14. Netreiam

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    Bolded part is my mentality, I would like to buff all classes to be in this state. Phrases like "You're good in siege so stop trying to get your class buffed in 1v1" or "Yeah my class is great 1v1 but it's dogshit in large scale" really irritate me because I don't see why someone would be fine with their class being irrelevant in anything, especially when this game is about huge amounts of investment into whatever char you play.


    call me bias, but I think the best way to deal with grabs is make them all the same range as valk's and also give every class at least 1 moving I frame to deal with them.

    Witchards are a special case because of casting, but I had an Idea to try and help with the casting vulnerability, you might've seen it already:


    The details could be changed but the basic idea is to make magic shield (or maybe create a new skill idk) that gives witchard an emergency resistance buff that they could use when they feel they are in danger of being CCed, maybe the "casting only" limitation could be removed and just allow it to add on all skill animations.
     
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  15. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 62 EU

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    maybe we should get something like sorcerers in Tera had - Warp barrier - wasnt movement skill, but gave iframe for a short time on spot where they were standing/running. should be able to cancel some skills tho. this way it wouldnt be used to kite, but to maybe avoid a stupid grab here and there.

     
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  16. Malkontent

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    Grab or knockdown, what does it matter.... you hit the ground and you die. Stop being a special snowflake. triple the dp remove potion spamming and move on.
     
  17. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Cus grabs can cc you through sa?
     
  18. v.klishev

    v.klishev Striker 62 EU

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    [​IMG]
     
  19. Malkontent

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    You poor thing
     
  20. Malkontent

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    TFW when someone drops knowledge on you and you're not mentally equipped to handle it.
     

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