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Sorceress I-frames needs to be removed/nerfed next

Discussion in 'Sorceress' started by Thanosmeansdeath, Apr 2, 2020.

  1. thdsm

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    It already does, but the numerically superior side still needs to use their brains and work for it. On the other hand, if you want free wins for those with numbers, regardless of the skill of anyone involved, just because they are more, then I strongly disagree.

    Many classes have decent disengage abilities. In fact sorc is one of the worst at properly disengaging, hence she should have better survivability during the fight. That said, some classes do indeed have a harder time against zergs, and they could use some buffs in that area.

    Umm, there are several classes that are literally designed around throwing protected nukes (guardian, witchards, musa etc), and most others have at least a few protected dmg skills. So saying that most other classes attacks are unprotected makes no sense, as this is more of an exception than anything.

    You said "extremely popular" which implies being at the extreme end of popularity, in other words the most popular or at least next to most. But this isn't even nearly the case, in fact sorc is pretty much middle of the pack popularity-wise.

    Also about your other post:
    This is a fallacy. Just because someone is factually right or wrong doesn't make their opinion relevant, because they could just be right by accident, without understanding why. It's not how knowledge works (even though it does in Hollywood movies, where some clueless conspiracy guy has been right all along because he had a hunch, but this doesn't apply to real life).

    This is all because the forum is now on a sorc hate bandwagon. Surely you've figured out that this is how bdo community (and any other gaming community for that matter) works. A year and a half ago when everyone was busy crying about mystic and then later ninja, nobody cared much for sorcs, and yet she was even stronger than now.

    Really don't know what's gotten into them, they weren't nearly as bad before tbh. These last two months have been a real roller coaster.
     
  2. FairlyEnjoyable

    FairlyEnjoyable Lahn 62 NA

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  3. sajdas

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    sorcs are far from being the only class with the ability to disengage and life steal (with bloody calamity in this case) from mobs around... hell, even wizard can tp and get full health with a 30 sec cd heal (not even require mobs to be around, just a pure heal)
     
  4. H4T3

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    LOL almost all classes could do the same by simply blocking after they manage to get up, in fact most classes wouldn't even take that much damage cuz most sorcs are glass cannons and if it was warrior, lahn, ninja, tamer, etc, they would get up and just do a quick engage and grab.
     
  5. FairlyEnjoyable

    FairlyEnjoyable Lahn 62 NA

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    Here's a better representation. https://clips.twitch.tv/PowerfulAverageTaroPartyTime

    See link above.
     
  6. sajdas

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    you know, i was wondering when someone is going to repost that rbf video...
    first, sorc can no longer do this as crow flare does not recharge 30 shards on successful block (which gave them the illuson of "infinite i-frames"). yes, the succ sorc as been nerfed already so even your new claim is out dated.

    second, while i-frames indeed make her (as the name of the defensive mechanic hint) invulnerable - it works only when the sorc does not attack. all of the sorcs abilities that let her engage does not have protection with the exception of ultimate dark flame (high cd, require a skill before him to be used) and storming crow (every second dash if spec and if used in a certain time limit after the first dash, super armor and bound with very low dmg but slow debuff). so a way to catch sorcs is to react to her skills instead of spamming her with aoes, who would thought...
     
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  7. Netreiam

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    It's not that I "want free wins for those with numbers" it's that numbers are a HEAVY advantage...except against sorc. You say they should "use their brains" but why does this not apply for other classes?

    Being able to disengage quickly is not the same as surviving for extended periods of time while being actively engaged. And even if sorc is "one of the worst" that implies that there is a worst (*cough* valk *cough*) and a few others, yet sorc is alone in how well she can survive and even break up a zerg.

    Yeah, honestly was thinking about protected CC not just attacks in general, but at the same time most attacks for other classes ARE still unprotected. Having protected nukes is not the same as most attacks being protected, and while you say that most others have a few protected damage skills. It's not like sorc doesn't have any.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Not to mention she has several ranged attacks which is a type of protection by itself if you are outside the range of an attacker, hence why there are almost no ranged attacked that are also protected (excluding the "while charging" mechanic that's supposed to help vs people gap closing within that charging period)

    Outside of siege I'd say she is definitely top 5. Obviously class totals change all the time, but it outside of the most recent FotM I haven't seen any other class nearly as consistently as sorcs and ninjas in pvp. However, like I said earlier, these are ancedotes so we can't really have a good argument on this point without going into theoreticals.

    Er, that doesn't really contradict what I was saying, I'm saying that people can be bad, but still be right. You admit as much saying people can stumble across answers by accident (although I'm talking more about identifying problems). Besides, how is a factually right answer not relevant to a question?

    Have you not seen the other threads? Sorc has been one of the most hated classes since CC changes.

    I'd say that overall it's better because they are now finally focusing on mechanics instead of only buffing damage % numbers up and down and adding protections. Of course that's still their first instinct (and its why succ ranger and lahn are gutted, since outside of stupid damage their mechanical depth was non-existent) but buffs that change how the skills actually function (like faster linking times, new flow activation methods, etc) are also mixed in there and give me a little hope.
     
    #47 Netreiam, Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2020
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  8. FairlyEnjoyable

    FairlyEnjoyable Lahn 62 NA

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    "In Avoid Mode" is always the best. :D
     
  9. sajdas

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    yea... this is why i prefer not to use grabs on i-frame classes - especialy sorcs. other forms of cc works much better
     
  10. KajdanKi

    KajdanKi Kajdanki Lahn 62 EU

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    I dont care about KR, im not playing there. Sorc in EU is most used hero (not saying everyone can play it) and even if you can't play it you can simply delay fight long enough to help. If you see enemy who is evading 10+ enemies its always a sorc... until runs out of stamina or make a mistake. simple as that
     
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  11. H4T3

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    The ONE characteristic that sorc is known for is being EVASIVE and that is the only good thing about her and the crying on this posts is about sorc WORKING AS INTENDED.
    Then again it's pointless arguing with people who don't even know the class and to show how clueless they are while they cry about how OP she is PA buffs her.
     
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  12. Keiskay

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    Im okay with sorc losing her Iframe if other classes lose their grab, have their protections dropped to a small handful of skills that can't really be rotated effectively and their dr and hp is also dropped to the same as sorcs. As nerf their movement to be the same as well. Or better yet the complainers can go play a western trinity based mmo Instead.
     
  13. thdsm

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    It does though, if you don't use brains against stuff like succ wizard, ninjakuno, tamer etc you will end up with an embarrassing loss. You just need different approaches for each class, and I already outlined a few easy steps that any group could take to defeat any sorc trying to 1vX.

    It is not the same, maybe that has to do with classes being different? Or would you prefer every class to be a clone with appearance being the only variety? That's how it was designed, bad at running, but instead can stay in a fight for a longer time.

    Look, if you want to have a constructive discussion, you should at least refrain from trying to make a point by looking up skills on bdocodex which say "superarmor" somewhere in the description. You can toss 3 of these right out, because grj is not protected on attack, crows is a long channeled skill with no cc and bad aoe, so it's used as a damage ability maybe once a month, and dark flame damage is too low for how long it takes. Only one of those is is an actual sa-damage skill.

    The point is they can be right sometimes, mostly by accident, but that doesn't mean it will happen often, because other times they will be wrong.

    No, back then there were maybe a few posts here and there, but most ppl were busy bashing mystic and ninja. The sorc crying started when mystic went out of fashion.

    They should be really careful with mechanics changes though, because nerfs in this area always leave a sour taste since players get more attached to that compared to damage. Mechanical buffs are fine, but care needs to be taken to not overdo it, so it wouldn't have to be reverted later.
     
  14. Nemmy™

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    Just play the game, ffs.
     
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  15. Xairen

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    if KR never sees sorc nerfs, ya'll will never see sorc nerfs anywhere else js

    and so far, scythe getting buffs kekw
     
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  16. Netreiam

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    Yes, and to a certain point, it doesn't matter how brainless the zerg is, even ninja/kuno/tamer (haven't seen much of succ wiz yet) will get destroyed by the sheer amount of damage and CC flying in their direction. These classes are also assassin types like sorc and yet their ability to group fight isn't anywhere close to sorc's. Meanwhile every other class is easy grab fodder 90% of the time or doesn't have enough Iframe and/or movement to evade damage for more than a few seconds if they don't gtfo

    There is a difference between having different tools and producing different outcomes. The kits that all 19 classes have are unique, yet most of them have little chance versus more than 2 or 3 people, with the more evasive classes probably capping out at around 4 or 5. Sorcs meanwhile are the only class juking 6+ people on the regular and providing CC and damage in between.

    Sure, I'll then go back to your point that having little "Actual protected damage skills" is by no means a sorc only thing:

    Ranger:
    [​IMG]too slow, low damage
    [​IMG]small aoe, low damage
    [​IMG]it can't be used by itself

    which only leaves
    [​IMG]which isn't even SA, so it can be CCed by wonky hitboxes

    Not to mention preawakening literally has no dedicated attacks that are protected.

    Maewha:
    [​IMG]stupid small hitbox, moving FG (more vulnerable than normal FG), low damage
    [​IMG]long channel + FG
    [​IMG] invincible only at start
    [​IMG]FG only while charging
    [​IMG]SA only moving backwards, low damage, small hitbox
    [​IMG]can't be used by itself
    [​IMG]can't be used by itself

    which leaves
    [​IMG]again, only FG, but still good damage and hitbox
    and
    [​IMG]SA + damage! Although the hitbox is small..


    Valkyrie:
    [​IMG]Extremely long cast time, FG, damage comes out late, hitbox smaller than most melee attacks
    [​IMG]FG only while moving, small hitbox, long time to deal damage
    [​IMG]extremely small hitbox, low damage
    [​IMG]extremely long cast time, meh aoe, extremely low damage
    [​IMG]Low damage
    [​IMG]usually used for movement because valk has no protected SA movement, small AoE

    which leaves
    [​IMG]SA + damage that's relatively decent (not really a nuke though)

    and
    [​IMG]FG + damage that relatively decent

    So it seems that sorc isn't alone in not being able to spam protected attacks 24/7 or even relatively often. Just counting protected attacks doesn't even mean anything since that isn't the end all be all in a fight. Animation speed, and protected movement are also extremely important. Which was the point I was trying to get at with my original comment.

    Who said anything about often? The fact that so many people come to the conclusion that sorc I-frames are a disproportionately powerful tool means that there is probably some underlying truth even if their claims of "inifinite I-frames are OP" is factually wrong.

    And would you say that the mystic and ninja bashing was completely unjustified? Not the nerfs they received, but the complaints themselves.

    As long as there is real effort to balance things out, I think mechanical changes are fine. It's when they just flat out nerf things with nothing given back that you end up with classes getting trash binned

    (Musa/Maewha getting stamina crippled, Valk having LSA removed, mystic losing much of her defensive power, and now succ lahn losing tons of SA and damage when that was the main point of the class)
     
    #56 Netreiam, Apr 5, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2020
  17. KajdanKi

    KajdanKi Kajdanki Lahn 62 EU

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    Does any other hero has ability to stay 90% of the time in i-frame? I dont think so. Just cooldown of 1sec and SA during cooldown would suffice
     
  18. sajdas

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    what next, should we give sorc a long range grab in exchange for the i-frame cd?
     
  19. thdsm

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    Not sure what you're trying to point out here. Yes, other classes can get zerged (but so can sorcs and contrary to the popular belief it happens quite often). Yes sorcs are better at fighting multiple opponents at once. No this isn't broken, it is a perk of the class. You want to know what the downside is? Sorcs don't appear out of nowhere and vanish or rmb away if things don't go according to plan.

    I never said anything of the like. What I said was that "most classes attacks are unprotected" is not true. Most classes have plenty of both protected damage and cc. Most doesn't mean all, it means the majority. So there is no need to start some sort of "find flaws in X ability" game.

    Well yeah, no ****ing ****. That's exactly why sorc functions. Now what do you think would happen if you made the animations slow or removed protected movement?

    You seem to be under impression that so many people actually came to this conclusion instead of just parroting someone else's opinion on the forums, because it explains so conveniently why they can't achieve success in pvp.

    This is beside the point, which is that the forum mob has this bandwagon mentality where it picks a target and crusades against it, ignoring all other potential issues, no matter if they are justified or not. Once the crusade is completed, it jumps onto the next one. So the answer to "why does everyone have a problem with just sorc" is that they don't, they have problems with lots of things, this is just where they direct the blame. There may be no sorcs on the same server, but still, the reason a zerker grabbed them will be sorc's infinite iframes.

    This is how it works everywhere btw, in online communities and in regular life. Just go looking for it and you'll find lots of examples.

    One thing I find annoying is that they don't ever revert things. Sometimes a change is so obviously bad that the best thing is to just undo it. Yet some kind of stupid pride prevents them from doing that and instead they buff something else, which over time results in classes with very uneven kits. This is why I'd prefer them to not mess with mechanics too much.
     
  20. Rekch

    Rekch Krid DarkKnight 62 EU

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    Can we at least all agree to stop saying "In KR blablabla" when it is just plain wrong even more if you use "because they have more gear"
    There are full pen c20 people on EU and NA by now and full pen 300+ ap sorc on both servers and they dont deal near low dmg on c20 people so dont try to imply that sorc is a low dmg class in kr due to ppl having gear when its simply factually false.
    A 300+ ap high accuracy sorc will melt anyone in the game as can most classes stop trying to pull the whole KR argument in there, even more when you seem to have no clue about KR pvp scene.
    Now go on the 200iQ 50 hour a day training very high skillz argument is at leasy funnier.


    Also to speak about the "we cant cc during iframe just git gud".
    1- a sorc wont try to cc you while you are throwing a cc skill
    2- lets take shadow eruption, you can cancel most of the animation between 2 iframes, add that to desync and gl hf to cc in that
    3- you wont cc a sorc while she tries to cc you between iframes unless she seriously mess up thats simply dishonnest

    The correct way to cc a sorc is either getting out of melee range to fish a cc on one of her range ability or bait the gaps of her movement abilities. Saying that sorc isnt protected while trying to cc you and tus you can cc her during that timeframe is dishonnest when it lasts less than a second between 2 iframes and most of the time the sorc tp in you back.
    Sure there are ways to cc a sorc like any class. But it is still one of the hardest class to cc if she doesnt mess up and one of the hardest class to pressure, saying "if she cced you then she wasnt protected during that time" is 100% dishonnest.
    There is a reason why most of the player base struggle with sorcs and it has nothing to do with every sorc player being litteral gods.
    Remind me of mystic from launch telling everyone they were **** and the class required 1000000iQ
     
    #60 Rekch, Apr 6, 2020
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2020
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