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State of the Musa after recent changes. (Much applies to Maehwa)

Discussion in 'Musa' started by Solrik, May 17, 2018.

  1. EDIT & FYI : This was written before the second stamina changes that made some skills use WP instead of Stamina (among a few other changes). This allows Stamina to regenerate better in combat. While the post is still somewhat relevant, the issue in the current state of the game (31/08/2018) is not as huge as the below text makes it sound like. For example, Fiery Angel does not consume Stamina anymore and was changd to be MUCH faster than before, so it's an added mobility skill.

    Objective post.

    Engage = A skill or set of skills that move you from a safe spot to the opponent you want to attack.
    Disengage = A skill or set of skills that move you from your opponent to a safe spot without getting disabled.
    Evasive = A skill or set of skills that move you around your opponent locally. In other words, a skill or set of skills that you use to move behind your opponent, to avoid the AoE of your opponent's telegraphed skills, etc. You get it.

    Musa Engage: Chase
    Musa Disengage: Chase
    Musa Evasive: Chase

    Chase is the signature skill of both Musa & Maehwa and a core skill that you must use to play with the class properly.

    An average musa has about 18-20 dashes if he consumes all his stamina. It takes 5-10 dashes to engage, depending on opponent's class. It takes 10+ to disengage, because your opponent will come after you.
    Normally, you need to do 2-3 dashes to get out of an aoe, or 1 if you dash behind your opponent to poke them and hopefully CC them.

    Around 200 ap, plus minus 20, our Frontal Guard is depleted in 1-3 skills. To regain frontal guard, you have some choices.
    Disengage, Evade/Juke your opponent or Attack them.

    The first and second can only be done with one skill (Chase). The third is not of significance, because attacking as a Musa/Maehwa class means you are vulnerable to attacks. (I will get back to this later)

    Do you see the problem here?
    The foundation of both classes is the Chase skill. When the foundation of both classes are nerfed to half their effectiveness, it impacts the whole class, not only "one skill of many".

    Doubling stamina consumption of Chase is comparable with halving the blocking power of shield-wielding classes (Warrior & Valk).

    Musa & Maehwa have always been the skirmisher, hit-n-run classes released as, advertised as and created as one of the most mobile classes in the game. Their mobility just got halved. Berserkers & Strikers have no problem keeping up with a Musa or Maehwa.

    Warrior & Valks (this is just an example to compare with) are known for strong blocking power. They are released as, advertised as and created as one of the most tanky classes in the game due to their block. If we apply the same type of change as was done on Musa & Maehwa, it would mean halving the blocking power of Warrior & Valk.

    It's easy to come up with such examples for other classes.


    The general rule of thumb for Musa & Maehwa have always been to either Dash, Block or Attack.
    Dash protects you, but at the same time gives your opponents time or the chance to trade more damage (Sa did not reduce damage taken).
    Block protects your front, is useful to recover stamina, but it is stationary and therefore makes us vulnerable to many AoEs. Blade Q block (Retaliation) is the only useful block skill of the class. (Awakening Q depletes our Stamina)
    Attacking puts you on the offense, but it also makes you completely vulnerable to attacks and CC.
    Dashing is used in combination with Attack to reposition, trick out opponents, feint attacks and create erratic movement to outplay our opponents.
    Dashing is used in combination with Block to bait our opponents to make themselves vulnerable so that we can switch to Attack.

    I can go on all day with this, but no one rides to read an essay on the forum for 30 minutes. Most of this also applies to Maehwa.

    Revert the stamina change and do something else.
    Reduce Chase length by 10-20% instead or..
    Reduce speed by 5-15% or...
    Increase damage taken from back attacks while using the skill

    Those three suggestion are from the top of my head, there might be even better changes.

    Briefly said, doubling stamina consumption of Chase affects everything Musa & Maehwa can do in PvP, indirectly nerfing them probably more than it was intended to.
     
    #1 Solrik, May 17, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 31, 2018
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  2. Foggen

    Foggen Musa 64 NA

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    Firey Angel is also an engage, despite losing the SA it used to have. Overall you're right though.
     
  3. I didn't mention it because it has the length of 1.5x dash, consumes stamina and activates slow.

    Honestly, I wouldn't mind if they reworked the skill to a low cd channeled skill with FG.
    To be more clear, it would be a slower run, but we would be able to turn much better with it and channel it for a longer time.

    It would consume WP every second (but pottable) and block stamina regeneration. It would not have any kind of offensive ability except for chaining it into a skill and we would be able to use it as our mobility skill. Ofc, it would still have to be faster and more sustainable than any other class but it wouldn't be OP, because you can only use it for forward motion with FG, so RIP our backs.

    This is just a "from the top of my head" thing I just came up with. Sadly this would leave out Maehwa.

    Or just go the simple route and double the WP consumption of Chase instead of Stamina. You can dash for about 250 WP while WP Pot is on the 6s cooldown. Double that and it's 500WP. I have 470 WP... I will deplete my whole WP reservoir if I spam my dash, so I have to SKILLFULLY manage my WP consumption.

    (I think the fiery angel would be cooler though, there is no other skill that looks like it)
     
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  4. Noisy

    Noisy Musa 62 NA

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    Fiery angle is a nice move as it had a knockdown on it, i use too use it a lot in close to quickly catch someone and knock them down. But since last weeks changes its not quite as good anymore
     
  5. It's a flooooooooooooooat... FLOOOOOOOOOOOOOAT
    Big difference D:<D:<D:<
     
  6. Noisy

    Noisy Musa 62 NA

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    Lol sorry all i know is they end up on the ground
     
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  7. Ghoast_

    Ghoast_ Musa 62 NA

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    Good points made Solrik. Way to put a dampener on my PMA in these dark times lol. But you are right for sure. I could live with across the board removal of SA and FG, but this chase nerf just makes me feel like **** for the first time as a musa. I mean, zerker now can outrun a musa, because he has calves the size of my waist I guess, kappa.

    My fingers are crossed they at least revert the chase changes. If not, I may seriously consider dumping this open beta test.
     
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  8. Kayray

    Kayray Tenebrarum Musa 62 NA

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    Process and fish my friends process and fish.
     
  9. I am going to craft elixirs. Gotta compensate for our short reach, amirite? xD
     
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  10. Vyky

    Vyky Maehwa EU

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    Used to say Musa and Maehwa are annoying classes what unable to catch.
    They cried.
    We got nerfed.
     
  11. Yup, after playing even more and having node wars and such, I wish the nerf was on the WP consumption instead of Stamina.
    Doubled WP consumption would've been so much better because then the class rewards smart and skillful playstyle. Then from that they can tweak how much WP skills use up.
     
  12. Foggen

    Foggen Musa 64 NA

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    PA: Your class defining movement speed is OP. Double stamina drain.
    Also PA: Here's Lahn, who can fly. Please buy a slot coupon.
     
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  13. Nerf mobility of all classes so that the new class hjas best mobility and everyone plays it and buys stuff for it gg business profit much profit
     
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  14. Vyky

    Vyky Maehwa EU

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    Actually glide, but at the moment, I do not see the benefit where could you use it, in sieges? Glide behind the enenmy lines or what is the purpose of this? Like a spy?! :)

    Anyway, we do not know what she is really capable of/made of before the awakening comes out.
    Strange and interesting new class indeed.
    I am curious when the glide ability will start to nerf because of the statement, this class is annoying, not able to catch, etc...
     
    #14 Vyky, May 24, 2018
    Last edited: May 24, 2018
  15. MoZex

    MoZex Wizard 61 EU

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    Honestly I think the old dash, the one we had weeks earlier, was a bit too strong (it was always strong with SA and its previous stamina consumption However it was still okay because class x and their abilities were strong/too strong).

    With the way gameplay is going I can see why it needs tuning, either keep same stamina consumption or make it consume 15-25% less stamina. We just cant zigzag long circles or tours around the enemy anymore, all classes get toned down, and currently we just have to manage by perhaps being more aggressive at dashing through the enemy (backwards dash) or reserve unnecessary "panicdashes" for the moments where you know this is when you go for damage or kill. I have often found myself drained of stamina in simple engages, so I have been more used lately at pre awak dashing with block inbetween, perhaps a slight delay, which really takes little to no stamina, be more aware to engage with dragon bite, or at least awak dash with slight delay before I spam dash into the blob-being aware when you're around the 50% stam area. And you can still escape, last night I was in a rbf blob fight with 2-3 chasing me, but I managed to get far away back to friendlies, even though I was drained of stam at the end.
    I question if being able to dash far far away to 100% control any fight or 100% easily escape while easily being able to fight is right, there has to be a resource management (and Im saying this as a wizard/ninja/musa).

    For grinding it is still good, you just cant spam nonstop, but still you are one of the faster classes.

    My take is that as long as we have propper trade skills and engages, that we have a presense or a say in group and 1v1s, after theyve done all the "balancing" - then the dash is fine more or less in its current iteration. We also need to reserve final judgement as one need to see how other classes pans out. But, I wouldnt mind a 15% less stamina consumption now.
     
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  16. @MoZex

    It agree that in the current state and how the game is going to be, it would be OP with stamina consumption back to original. But I would still prefer the WP consumption approach, as it leave Musa/Maehwa as the mobile classes, but only when you are not attacking. You either make yourself half mobile so you have resources left to engage and fight or focus on being mobile with a weak attack power (since your WP is low)

    But...

    Next week we are going to get a lot of protection back on our awakening skills (for the cost of their CC), so we will have more staying power in fights, thus better stamina management.
     
  17. MoZex

    MoZex Wizard 61 EU

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    Did some fights yday vs a ninja which used to b my main n ninja deff has higher stamina 'balance' upkeep if i can use that word. If i as musa didnt pressure him quick enough, esp no succesful blooming (cuz ninjas r quicker at evading than our atks n dashes) then i quickly found myself at rly low stam with pre awak blocking n less pressure. Ofc i most likely didnt play optimal, but it was obvious that musas resources could faster drain down than a ninjas. :Feelspriman:
     
  18. Hortalr~

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    Lahn are easy to catch even with the gliding, excepted if you're fighting her in a high altitude then she goes down. But in pvp our stam is better than her
     
  19. After some node wars and pvp encounters, I have a bit more to say about the stamina change on dash. This are not based on 1v1, but does not mean that 1v1 doesn't suffer from the same problems

    It works for Engaging, because the stamina is enough for that.
    It works for Disengaging, same reason.
    It also works for Fighting, same reason.

    HOWEVER

    It does not work any two of those three combined.
    You can't use it for engaging and then to dash midfight, because by the time you engaged, you'll usually be around 25-50% stamina, forcing you to only use 1-2 skills before spending the remaining stamina to try disengaging. Or block midfight (good luck with that even if you're best musa)

    You can't use it to disengage properly after fighting, as your stamina regens slowly and you have to put yourself at great risk to recover stamina midfight, or use your remaining stamina and cripple your disengage by letting people catch up to you while you stop and block for stamina.

    Since it's our only mobility skill in the whole class, it is now more limited to what the game allows you to do and not what you can do by skill.

    Your juking skills are useless, your skills at finding opportunities to attack are useless... All that is useless because you can't stay and fight for more than a few seconds before your stamina runs out. At that point you HAVE to block and hope that the people you fight don't know that you are atm blocking because you are fked.
     
    #19 Solrik, May 28, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: May 28, 2018
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  20. People in MMORPGs often have their camera pointed down. The highest they can see is usually the height of their camera.
    That's because looking up is cancer when there is foliage in the way.

    So a class that can literally fly higher than you can practically see and then swoosh down on you in an instant has a huge advantage in engages over all classes.

    When it comes to disengaging, any higher ground makes it much easier with the skills Lahn has. We can't dash longer than it can fly/glide/stride and we can't cross cliffs or downhil terrain.
    D:<
     

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