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Suggestions to change OwPvP

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Drielith, Feb 5, 2020.

  1. nolasigns

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    That's only if they developed the philosophy that sitting in one little circle in a spot surrounded by the same content is the logical approach in a given circumstance.

    This isn't about fixing owpvp. This is about giving mechanics to support an idea developed by players over the years with those little spots in mind.

    Owpvp is fine. Every one should be running around killing anyone dumb enough to sit in one spot at any given time. In fact, whole guilds should be zerging all of these spots. Then you know how people would grind for money and xp? They certainly wouldn't be sitting in one little spot.

    But no. Over the years the more powerful made motivational videos in their OP gears and said: hey! You wanna be rich like me? Do it like this -zips in circles- it's the most efficient way! But remember folks, killing anyone that comes in that spot is perfectly fine. We have mechanics! It's the core of BDO!

    And the lemmings cheered at their YT video "I sooiooooooo wanna be that guy!" And now want that to be an owpvp mechanics policy to support those ideas. Meanwhile, owpvp on arsha stays stagnant.

    The only fix for owpvp is to actually owpvp
     
  2. Capitaine Courage

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    Well, with games relying on grinding, it has always been the case. Time is a finite ressources, so players naturally want to optimise it the best way they can and yes, there are "routes" that are more optimized than others, and since grouping is not a real solution, then yes, "biologic competition" over ressources, mobs here, kicks in, and "ad hoc" territorial and ressources claims become one of the main reasons to incentivize conflicts (but also cooperation and politics) between players groups. That's how it usually works in OPvP games followinf a GvG model (not an RvR onen that's an absolutely fundamental point) with such settings.
    Mind you, it could be even worse. In some games like Lineage for example, even bosses follow this scarcity and biological comptetition model, and the strongest guilds prevent every other one to just attend the boss.
    What is lacking here, and it has been mentionned several times by me and others, is a real bounty system in order to give a real meaning to OPvP than just, "me see, me kill"
    The idea of specialised guild, like they were in KR betas (military, trading or religion) also followed this idea.
     
    #42 Capitaine Courage, Feb 5, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  3. Drielith

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    And if someone kills indiscriminately without checking who they've killed then they'll be karma and bounty/honor bombing themselves without getting anything out of it.

    Then what rework to the current karma system do you suggest, that'll make for an interesting OwPvP experience?
    Also I fail to see why adding another system on top of the current one will necessarily lead to exploiting. I do agree though that the karma system could do with some rework or entirely be replaced with something better.
     
  4. nolasigns

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    So then, there is no mechanical fix needed. More of a socio-gamer attitude adjustment to reverse idealistic developments in the culture of BDO players.

    Because to be blunt, the vast majority of people that think they are being efficient, are not, but still think that following the standard rule is making them that way.
     
  5. zhagsten

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    Just like people are karma bombing themselves? Interesting.
    As long as there can be other players to honor farm and they know how to get out of the risky situation, they'll do it. Giving points from killing other players pushes people to non-sensical behaviour, like people getting out of their rotation to kill the neighbour and then come back to grinding. It makes no sense for a persistent world, but as it makes sense for a quick gamey perspective, player will do it. Everybody would be attacking travellers, adding hurdles to the gameplay where it's not interesting.

    There's something to gain. Honor shop? People will trade honor points. Bounty system? That's the fool's taxe, paid by delusional victims, banked by friends to the PKer. Those systems will always be exploited. And that's because it's not a core system thought from the root, it's a shabby addition trying to fix the problems the core system created.

    For an interesting OWPvP experience, you would need a segregation of players who don't want that. Put them somewhere else. Then you need to increase TTK for meaningful encounters and to give a chance to flee. You need to ease travel through the world so being shoved out of a grinding area doesn't mean running on foot or swimming 20 minutes. You need to secure respawn points. You probably need a few more things I don't have in mind right now, but then you can add a penalty to PvP death that stays proportionate to the leveling speed of the level and allows deleveling. You need a cooldown on the consensual PvP tag, whether it's an automatic tag or a player controlled toggle. Careful with automatic tags, sometimes they can be exploited.
    Only then you reach the "karma system", which can include a PK count to increase the penalty. You can give the penalty on the PKers death, but then you should reward the "enforcer of justice". You can also automatically punish the PKer after a number of PKs. The penalty must make sense with the whole game, ie certainly not losing enhancement levels. The easiest is jail time, that you have to spend online, it's easy to think of an adequat punishment. You can add a difficult gameplay to get out with the aid of your guildmates by giving rewards to players who would defend the jail, but that requires more resources to make of course and isn't easy to balance.
    You need the guild war system to be the other way around: when you declare, you can be attacked by them freely but you get full penalty if you attack them. Only when the guild declared back can you have fights free of any penalty. Of course no protection for an individual of the guild or for the whole guild either.
    And then, to open the topic, you can add more PvP activities: trade/barter routes with big rewards if you make it through, and the possibilities for other players to register as an attacker (to balance the encounter), with rewards if you stop the wagon/ship. No penalty on death for anyone involved there other than not getting the rewards. It ties things together and make the world more meaningful and more exciting.
     
  6. Lord_Xenon

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    One big problem of the game lies in the rotten core of it: More power due more power. Party is useless when you OS left and right the mobs around you. Looting would become a leech thing as just 1 person is enough to clear. As most spots are open(no hardcap on AP applied) it actually makes no sense either to party up. With such an open concept of the world you can't even balance it. As you would need to adjust the HP etc. of the mobs to withstand more than just 1 person. But then you would need to make it rewarding enough to be used as party. Though without hardcap, this can result that just stronger players abuse such a party spot as better grindspot than the solospot they can do with their power.

    In other games I played you had to enter the OwPvP area, but then you know that you are prone to fight other race/faction/player, but here it's essentially the entire world. When you wouldn't leave 'safe zones', you would reduce your world to like 10% of the total. The lvl 49 is a joke and psycho terror.
     
  7. Drielith

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    Sure, there are people that grief despite the consequences because they don't care. Griefing isn't limited to PvP and as long as you get on their bad side they'll use different ways of giving you a hard time. Trying to find a solution that entirely rids the game of this behavior is sheer folly, and the best that can be done imo is to keep/implement systems that deter bad behavior as much as possible without taking it too far, by 1. Punishing and/or 2. Rewarding certain behavior.

    Don't know about it being 'nonsensical behavior'. From a PvP POV it makes sense. Kill someone and get some points, while also getting a bounty on your head. If players are not adverse to taking risks they'll avoid flagging other players for easy gains. If players are risk takers then they'll run the risk of getting killed by a bounty hunter and losing more than they earned by killing that single player.

    Besides, the honor point rewarding could be limited to grind spots (or some of them) so travelers can go to and from point A to B without worrying about getting killed for points.

    True, could be exploited that way, but the player will still get a high bounty on their head which needs to be grinded away, and during that time they'll run the risk of losing more than they gained by getting killed to a bounty hunter and losing more honor points than they gained and also get send to prison, so they lose time too.

    Could you clarify what kind of segregation you're suggesting? I.e are you advocating for a PvE channel/server or a system which allows for segregation on already existing servers?

    If there's already a segregation of players I don't see a reason to harshly punish PK'ers (deleveling? really?) other than giving them jail time. As for the segregation part I'll refrain from commenting any further until I'm clear on what you mean and how you wish it done.

    A player toggled consensual PvP tag (Which disables any penalties that would otherwise be applied upon killing that player) could be an idea. Add a small bonus to exp/loot drop to entice players to enable consensual PvP tag and a way of seeing whether a player is tagged, and I'd be all for including that.

    As for your suggestion on adding more PvP activites and acting like an escort to an NPC I think they're good ideas.
     
  8. zhagsten

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    I mean a clear split. It's the easiest way. You can give the choice of transfer at the start but when the separation is done, you're sure there's no influence of the two gamestyles. The commercial risk is that friends/guildies choose a different style, get separated and end up losing interest in the game. It typically happened with Ultima Online even if both styles were still linked. You can also think of rules to keep them together on the same server, but you have to evaluate the pros and cons of each side and what it implies for progression.

    Exp loss on death for everybody (not just PKers) makes players think about where they go, which spot they can take. But it also means that PK must not be rampant. Hence the severity if you use it more than occasionally. Delevelling isn't negociable when you introduce exp loss. Otherwise some players don't risk the same. I'm surprised it frightens you.

    I call the situation brought by your honor point system non-sensical because it's sitting between two chairs: full pvp or even deathmatch and open pvp with pvp as a tool to solve conflicts as a last resort. If you give points for killing randoms but punish for killing too much, you are both incitating random PKs and saying "actually that's bad, stop it". Choose one. I'd like to remind you that holding a grinding spot should be a reward in itself. And it has the advantage to be a local resource, thus already having limits.
     
  9. AZzalor

    AZzalor EU

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    Easiest way but by no means the best.
     
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  10. Drielith

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    And that's the very concern I have and why I want to avoid segregating the playerbase. The risk. If there were no risk and no impact on OwPvP of such a segregation I'd be all for this.

    It's more that I can't see it end well. Let's for the sake of argument say it was introduced, how do you prevent it from being used as a means of griefing other players, since the PK'ed now also lose exp and run the risk of deleveling? You mentioned, You can also automatically punish the PKer after a number of PKs, that must mean there's a set limit of times a player can kill others' before being punished themselves. If say, the number of times is 5 kills before the PK'er gets punished, then doesn't that mean he'll stop at 4 kills? Also, is it character bound or accountwide? If it's character bound like karma, then won't that player just have a PK alt?
    If it's accountwide, then won't it just mean he can log on a level 49 and do some other activity while waiting for punishment to reset? Or is it permanent and only something that can get lowered upon PK deaths?

    You're not wrong. Because I frankly suggested it this way, since I don't want it to turn completely into the Wild West, so I introduced a reward and risk system. As it is right now, you just get punished for killing others and while that may be okay depending on how you see it, I think it would be more interesting to introduce a bounty system that encouraged players to fight back and make other players into bounty hunters to act like a kind of police. The bandits/PK'ers would be a bit like pirates are in AA (yes, I know it's a faction) where they act like outlaws and are hunted by the general populace.
     
  11. DafuqYouLookinAt

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    Any sort of PVP topic just sets on fire and explodes.

    BDO players on the forums be like:
    giphy (1).gif
    It's incredibly sad actually.
     
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  12. zhagsten

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    If you want an OWPvP system that works, you cannot work with the whole current playerbase. If you want to bring back the possibility to be kicked out of a spot (by opposition to being able to come back again and again), it means you add some punishment to PvP death. Even if it's just time. That would displease a large number of players, and you will lose a lot of them anyway. So yeah, it's not ideal, but if you want both that system and keep a maximum of players, you'll need to find a place for them.

    With a limit on "free" kills before facing consequences (automatic or not), players will keep their allowed count for the appropriate situation. That count can decrease with the rule you find more appropriate. With time while offline, while online, while on the same character... through a repeatable quest...The result is the similar : it's a timeout. It's softer that jail time. Does jail time removes PK count? It's to be adjusted. The important is to give a way to players to redeem themselves and not condemn them forever, thus validating their choice definitely.

    I don't see a problem with players being punished for dying in PvP in that case, as I also stated an important prerequisite : a longer TTK. There has to be a choice. The choice where you go to grind, the choice to engage or disengage combat, and the possibility to prove your worth. If you can just get engaged and one-shot despite being at similar levels of power, it becomes easierly a tool to grief. Also it makes PvP a lot less meaningful, basically just constant radar paranoia, so it doesn't make sense to try to make an OWPvP system meaningful with that.

    Also note that if there's too much disparity between the levels of power of the players, you can reduce the penalty of PvP death. Not remove it. But rather than just taking into account the gear score at the moment of death, you have to find a better formula. You can take into account the zone where it occurs. In a grinding area for lowbies, if a lowbie get PKed by a high power player, you can't punish much. He's at his place, the PKer is the one at the wrong place. But if a lowbie is at a contested area for high power characters, he must face the consequences.
     
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  13. AZzalor

    AZzalor EU

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    It used to be like that so it would not be something new. You would lose xp and crystal when dying (same as now against monsters). After tons of crying from some carebears it got removed but never replaced by anything throwing the owpvp out of balance. Now a life of someone basically is worth nothing so players use it to just bodythrow.
    I'm all for giving the life of a player a value to stop bodythrowing. This does not have to be in a way of losing something that you already gained (xp, crystals, gear, stuff from inventory) but rather time. That could be implemented in many ways for example adding a respawn timer that increases if you get killed in quick succession, disabling the use of elion tears in pvp and making spawning at town the only option. Just some ideas, i'm sure there would be more ways.
     
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  14. Drielith

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    I know. I'm a victim from back then and was also one of the carebears lol. Look, I'm all for introducing something new/old but just not a fan of that one.
     
  15. woots

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    That's totaly normal giving the "design" ( irony inside ) of the game.
    They created a toxic casino environment pushing players to maximise their income, and the best way to do that giving their pve design absence, is to run in circle killing HP sandbag for the loot.

    in such configuration, omipresence of owpvp ( like guild zerging pve spot etc ) would just very bad because you turn veterant ( /whales ) into a wall preventing others from progressing. On top of just increasing even more the power gap between players
    Even AA which is the most pvp-owpvp centric game compare to all others mmo becoming a joke for kids compare to it, doesnt allow a full owpvp anywhere at all time.

    And since PA didnt spent time to work on A game, and werent smart enough to split owpvp from grinds spots with others activities resolving around.
    Its more than normal to have a owpvp turned down at this point ( hello karma ) to not have players "progressing" beeing in the inability to do so

    To have a valid owpvp, they would need to change the way / time you gear up, give other insentive to fight for ( because promoting fight in the most unbalanced situation is THE dumbest thing any dev can do. Pleasing one ego by frustrating another players. Is just a straight design for stupid ), rework all pve income to not be forced to run pve in circle during... well until the end of your BDO life
    So ofc rework all owpvp rules
     
    #55 woots, Feb 7, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
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  16. Gekko ツ

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