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Summer Wish list of Tamer Changes + Tamer Change Poll

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Atias, May 4, 2019.

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What do you think Tamer needs the most?

  1. More ranged options

    3 vote(s)
    11.5%
  2. More sustainability (self heal, DP buffs)

    8 vote(s)
    30.8%
  3. More Support options (Buff Allies)

    1 vote(s)
    3.8%
  4. More Damage (Dmg Modifiers, AoE Increase)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. All of the Above

    4 vote(s)
    15.4%
  6. None of the above (Tamer is already OP)

    10 vote(s)
    38.5%
  1. Atias

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    Hello Everyone! Scai here for a 'Christmas in July' wish list of tamer changes. Last winter i compiled a list around the end of December and was ecstatic for the feedback and support it received. Some changes were actually implemented either directly or indirectly, but in the end, it's up to us to let the devs know how we want our little summoner to truly shine on the battlefield. So here's my list of potential changes to some of Tamer's kit. Thanks for taking the time to read this, and let me know what you think!
    (Link to the document is here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gi-NEag5BZaJ5_FJvs293kPNJgEjOcSYU8ra-pfhVkM/edit )



    Summer Wishslist
    ‘ = personal thought
    * = Suggestion


    AWK Basic Auto attack rework/improvement

    15% accuracy effect on Basic Attacks

    *Increase buff to 20 seconds
    *Gain 15% buff from the 3rd forward basic attack’s animation

    -Current 3rd basic fwd atk animation is W+LMB After:
    --Black Turtle, Echo Pierce

    *Allow 3rd basic atk animation after the following:
    Extra Hits of All Around Spinner, Garuda, Beast Rampage Extra Hits, Flow:Intimidation, White Tiger

    -Currently, gain 15% accuracy buff when performing 2 forward basic atk after:
    Verm bird (mid animation), Azure dragon (Mid Animation)

    *Change to immediately perform the 3rd animation mid animation

    ‘Right now, tamer has a rarely used 15% acc buff in their AWK basic attack but have severely limited uses to bring it out pertaining to during some legendary beast dances if nothing else. Considering how fast Combat/duels have been getting and growth of Evasion Builds, There is very little time that tamers can sit unprotected before getting hit with some CC. Let alone be able to do 3 basic attack animations get away with it, and catch a target in under 10 seconds. Increasing the buff time, or allow the buff to be obtained quicker mid combo would be a very nice buff to the class without giving more AP/ damage modifiers.


    Heilang Absorb

    *Add effect Hp regen +50 for duration
    *Increase effect to 10 people

    ‘Being a melee Class with limited ranged options, it would be nice to see Tamer provide more supportive functions. When not peeling or preparing for an engage.



    Berserk

    *Add Effect HP regen +100 for duration

    ‘Added Sustainability, Heilang’s power is surging during this time, why wouldn't you be able to heal some scratches mid way...


    Throat Burn

    *Remove rear collision while jumping back

    *Make it so Throat Burn can flow only after Bolt Wave, not Jolt wave (Messes up trying to Flow Jolt Wave>All Around Spinner). Tamer seems to freeze sometimes when pressing Shift+RMB after Jolt Wave when both Throat Burn and All Around Spinner is off cool down, as if unsure of which skill to use.(Bug)?

    *Add Air Smash


    ‘This is more personal, as I’m probably the only tamer that uses it. It’s great in PvE/hystria to group up stragglers. Surging Tide’s flow from heilang disrupts the knockback and no high level Tamer wants to use evasive attack. Having collision when jumping backwards is difficult however. Our Shift+A/D alone doesn't get us behind the Vodkhan for example. This can also allow for some niche PvP use, being able to get behind the enemy and CC them while flowing from Bolt wave effectively, while keeping the Jolt Wave Flow to All Around Spinner. This wouldn’t change any meta Tamer play-style but extend the list possible combos for more experienced Tamers.

    ‘The freezing is weird, sometimes the Tamer does nothing, sometimes it flows immediately how i want it to. The inputting includes various combos involving Bolt/Jolt, Legendary Beast Power, Throat burn. and all Around spinner. (zero hot keys used). Grind in hystria using Throat Burn and you’ll eventually see what I mean.


    Roaring

    *Make it so you can animation cancel


    ‘(without the ‘fist raise’ and ‘Thank you!’ As funny and BM as it is)

    ‘Cant have a wish list without some things I know we won’t get



    Howling

    *All effect: Allied players ‘hit’ in AoE recovers 30hp per hit (up to 5 targets)

    *Subsequent hits grow in range (Like Offin Tett’s fire burst that expands)

    'Great for supporting allies getting attacked and sustaining during pushes/funneled spots

    ‘Heilang can’t be told to do anything during this time and is useless after the first hit or miss. Would be better to have another benefit to the skill if not noticeable dmg.


    Heilang Improve AI

    *Make him uninterruptible when using the atk command (similar to AWK Skill: Howling)

    'Heilang changes direction mid dash or just howls at spot because something hits heilang or the tamer mid dash, making ranged pulling more annoying if possible at all.

    *Make him more obedient when using Surging tide while in attack command.

    'right now you can't use surging tide with confidence, expecting for heilang to Flow, even when used off cooldown in the heat of a fight,while in attack command. However when in follow command he responds every time and utilizes his ranged CC attack. Just be nicer if we had Void-level control when using Surging Tide
     
    Mandymeow and Tomu like this.
  2. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    How about removing invincibility or CC from heilag?
    How about removing hes teleport ?
    How about balance 1s cd SA dash ?
    How about remove "that jump movement" where tamer invincible ?
     
    Atias likes this.
  3. RngNotWithMe

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    why u wonna change tamer if we didnt see any single one for months? ;DDDD
     
  4. TotallyHobo

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    That jump is a SA BTW can be damaged or grabbed out of it
     
  5. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 63 NA

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    I think they are referring to ww preawaken. It's iframe at the beginning.

    But no. Just no.
     
  6. The-TJ

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    I'll just post a quick reason why i voted "More ranged options".
    This would increase our grinding speed on higher level spots cause we can pull mobs more efficient.
    That's all what tamer needs at the moment for me.
     
    Atias likes this.
  7. TotallyHobo

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    Ohhh yeah the WW one that's good stuff ;) I mean I don't think tamers need buffs though they are fine as they are
     
  8. Atias

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    Thanks for expressing your concern as a non-tamer. It seems you are not familiar fighting against Tamers so allow me to offer some suggestions.

    1. Heilang is not invincible. Though he probably won't die, you can CC him with certain heavy hitting CCs, (He has high resistances) I think for DK some of these skills include Wheel of Fortune, Lunacy. Play tests vs your resident Tamer to find out which CCs him more.
    The best way to deal with heilang is to keep moving. Even if we're on our back, don't let heilang sit on you! A moving heilang is a useless heilang.

    2. His 'teleport' is probably a 40 second cooldown skill Tamers have called 'Howling', it's really our only viable means of ranged engagement. Keeping your guard up and staying mobile makes this skill near impossible to land. If you talk about the AoE stiffen aka Void Lightning. Then just use all your SA and get out/keep your distance, no need to rush a fight.

    3. Our SA Dash, aka Legendary Beast Power, or LBP, is arguably the core and pillar of our class. the whole animation is not a SA so keeping your distance and throwing out ranged damage/CC should help you deal with this. Also keep in mind that if there is a significant gear difference, you are already at a huge disadvantage as Tamers are effective SA traders like Musa. In short, you don't ever want a tamer within arm distance unless she's on the ground.

    4. the 'Jump movement' is our Evasion Skill Aka 'WW' it is not as invincible as people suggest it is. In PvP it's vulnerable>Iframe>Vulnerable. This means there are few frames or windows you can CC us with. Ranged projectiles such as your shadow bullet and Obsidian Ashes(if it's still CC in pvp) will work very effectively if your enemy tamer is jumpy. (Your W+F in non-awk should work well too.) Debuffs to Movement speed affects our WW immensely so getting any slow on us will benefit you greatly as it'll increase the frames we are vulnerable.

    Now that you have more information on Tamers I hope this helps you deal with Tamers a little better. Best of luck!
     
    Felyni, JM, TotallyHobo and 1 other person like this.
  9. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    Are you Rena representation of Tamer ? Maybe you gonna explain how its "Ok" that every skill of tamer is animation cancelable? Can't smash noobs anymore because over all GS going up and crying how you class is "trash" ? Git gut and lets we all hope you get nerfs class deserve so you can show you skill, not dominance through unchanged skills in new CC/Stamina era.
     
  10. Atias

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    Did a Tamer touch you in a strange place and made you uncomfortable? Why the hostilities? Forgive me for my tiny tamer brain can't understand what your suggesting. There seems to be more things bothering you. If you want to talk those issues out, I'm here for you bro.

    Every player has that one or two class they can't seem to win against. For me it's Sorcs and Rangers. I can just as easily go on their threads and cast a storm of fire and brimstone. I choose not to because the suggestion forum is for ways to promote and discuss improvements or tweak things in the game to make it more enjoyable for those enjoying the content. I calmly told you possible counter measures to your loudest complaints, which most end game tamers would agree are effective. Put in a suggestion to promote those. Thanks! If your looking to debate the Tamer Class in general, I'd be happy to hear you out in another forum post. Feel free to PM me your post about all the things you hate about tamer and I can give you a list of things I hate about Tamer too. We can then curse the class together haha. Anyway, If you have comments or concerns about the specific things I am suggesting in this post. I'll be happy to hear them here.
     
    Alrikmerc and TotallyHobo like this.
  11. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    Remove player protection from summon, remove summon teleportation, remove server side summon CC, apply stamina changes for Iframes/Dashes, remove massive animation cancel- for real scripted tamer can use void while he falling knockdown, resulting he surrounded by AOE stun area.
    When those changes are done, you can ask for balancing legit skill. Asking for changes while you class heavy outside of "meta" in OP side? Are you 550 GS and wonder why you can't kill anyone ?
    Oh right i forgot don't blame loli.
     
  12. Atias

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    mmm, I'm almost 600GS and still wonder why it's so hard to kill anyone haha. Stamnia is used for WW, LBP uses MP. (which is why it appears we can WW often) A good tamer can manage stamina well, a bad one can't. I already told you how to deal with Heilang and his CCs. DK has more than enough mobility to keep themselves from getting CC'd by heilang.

    In today's Meta, DKs need to be 269+AP to start seeing any 'worthwhile' effectiveness in combat. anything under and they wont pressure anyone effectively/cant SA trade effectively. If your below that, then I can understand. that's the most annoying mountain to climb. Working hard, making gains and it's still not enough. Trust me, i know that frustration, every class seemed OP especially that one or two classes that always seem to have it easier. Once you hit that 270AP, things will start looking better. If your already 270+, then i'll pray for you.

    Catching people with Void, i can understand well. Many people get annoyed that we void the split second before getting CC'd. thanks to server lag/desync, we 'cast void' which is a SA but still get CC'd. For Many Tamers Void is often our 'panic button' if we feel that a CC or engage is coming, we'll cast it. (note void is on a 13 second CD which heilang will do his flow, but not apply stiffen effect) Because of the half second it takes heilang to teleport back and start. it appears that we use it while getting knocked down/grabbed.
    That being said, there are obvious visual cues and ways you can detect a void even if you have effects turned off. I've also noticed your in EU. ask some NA DK streamers how they deal with Tamers and try that out. Tamers seem to be having more fun in EU than NA haha.

    In the end, to me, it just sounds like your not used to fighting Tamers properly. Your not geared to your class's 'lethality level' yet. You may be too aggressive and you don't want to respect half of Tamer's kit (the dog). You don't want to learn how to fight Tamers because it's not in your comfortable/muscle memorized play-style. I've been respectful of your insight and frustration about the Tamer. I've offered serious and sound advice and tips on how to deal with them. If you still insist on complaining rather than seeking for knowledge, I will not comment any further. If you want to beat us down with what you got, find someone who knows how to, learn what they do, do what they do, and succeed. This is not a smack talk, it's a 'are you up to the challenge' talk. We all have to walk the same path. You can give up, or keep getting stronger. The choice is yours. (But lets be real, PA is probably not going to reward your demands nor my suggestions haha, but we can still try). Best of luck!
     
    TotallyHobo likes this.
  13. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    You think someone read text walls ?
    I pointed you broken parts of tamer that make that class very much OP, and you posting some crap about "not use to fight" ? How get to use fight vs someone who use void while he already falling down in knockdown animation and you become stunned from heilag stun, while tamer standing up and 1shoting you, because you still stunned?
    You can ask for changes when those broken "mechanics" of tamer fixed to normal stage. When you can't "Jump" over battlefield in Iframe, hiding behind you invincible stun machine that cover you ass when you fail.
     
  14. Ashenvall

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    Tamer needs better interaction with heilang especially in awakening.
     
    JM likes this.
  15. The-TJ

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    I've seen enough people counterplay a void tho. If you are aware of the tamer you can play around it. It's a skill casted by the pet. And idk if we are even at that point the pet is even nerfed compared to others. Witch/Wizard or even striker clonses still use their attack even after the "summoner" dies, heilang despawns as soon as the tamer dies and the attack is canceled. Maybe that change would be good?
    Like just gid gud and play around it. There are ways and it's not like Dk is completely unprotected.
     
  16. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 63 NA

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    I'm usually the pretty level headed person when it comes to people attacking tamer, but others have handled that for me already. I really appreciate @The-TJ and and @Atias being cordial and walking you through things.

    but you're a complainer who has no interest in improving. You'd rather break others down than stare yourself in the mirror and accept your problems. It's deplorable and unneeded in this game, and even less in real life. If you have trouble dealing with something as basic as void lightning you are the one who needs to git gud here. seriously, there are children who learn not to touch the pot on the stove after the first time mate.
     
    JM likes this.
  17. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    Is that some kind of tamer sht ? I pointed you moments that totally outside of current balance,exploit for sure that would be fixed soon or later. And you start personal insulting.
    Oh right i forget tamer players are snowflakes, not allowed to blame class or players for it being broken. Guess tamer going Witchard way's where class is very strong, but player can't face roll it and demand buffs.
     
  18. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 63 NA

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    Listen to yourself, think about what you are saying, think about what everyone has told you. They have literally given you advice on how to fight tamer. we play the class, we know how to beat it. we know where it's weak, but you're still sitting here crying about it.

    that's why i said the problem was with you. It's not a personal attack, it's an assessment. I was rude about it, sure. If that's a problem i'm sorry.
     
  19. AtomicPotato

    AtomicPotato DarkKnight 62 EU

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    I gave nothing, i pointed out 3 things:
    1- Heilag need removal of teleport ( wtf is that you ambush tamer and he tp stun you) and removed player protection.
    2- Tamer animation cancel at exploit level - amount of using void flow while tamer can't use it insane.
    3- Tamer Iframe jump's is broken beyond reality- even musa cant jump in, while tamer have no problem.
    This is not my problems is obvious broken mechanics that soon or later will be fixes. While you have those advances you asking for more buffs. Are you hight ?
    What i see - tamer players avoiding discussing those mechanics and directly moving to personal insulting.
    And yes i heard that million times already - "Its a skill" when tamer use void when he falling down on ground.
     
    #19 AtomicPotato, May 6, 2019
    Last edited: May 6, 2019
  20. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 63 NA

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    1-You aren't being clear about the teleportation skill. Heilang teleports a lot for different reasons. If you mean when we command him to teleport to a target, it's a 40 second CD that misses most of the time. Especially vs DK's and other highly mobile classes.
    2-tamer's cancels are literally the class feature. It's what makes her able to combo people at all. If you think this is something to address you're in the severe minority, perhaps totally alone in it.

    Edit: Void Lightning: it can be quickly cancelled and heilang will still do his part. We aren't the only ones who can do something like that. It's not likely something to be nerfed further than it already has been (and it has been, we used to be able to spam it with movement).

    3-If you are referring to using WW as protected movement, comparing it to Musa is a bad choice. Musa's dash is actually much more well protected than Tamer's. The gap is tiny and they have super armor while not i-frame. Tamer is completely vulnerable while not in i-frame with skill. We get caught by archers and rangers all the time, also ninjas, while we are in WW. The best way to catch a tamer using WW is to pop skills that have a high number of hits.

    I don't think tamer needs buffs, but the thread asked.
     
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