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Tamer - Buffs/Nerfs/QoL

Discussion in 'Tamer' started by Netreiam, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. Netreiam

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    Hello everyone,

    Recently the suggestions megathread: (https://community.blackdesertonline...ine-suggestion-megathread-updated-2-13.38256/) has been getting visible attention from the Kakao staff and while there are many good suggestions there is a specific lack of class related changes.

    My intent is to create a thread similar to helbjorneBDO's but focus on the issue of class balance. My idea is to create a section for each class with opinions from both the mains and general community on their strengths and weaknesses and what can be done to create a balance between them that is healthier for the pvp scene as a whole, this means considerations for mass PvP as well as 1v1 because both are part of the game, whether some view one more relevant than the other or not. PvE balancing can also be a part of the discussion, however I feel like this is more relevant to pvp because some of the worse imbalances can be found there.

    The overall goal of this thread is to create a more balanced class, NOT to match or surpass what many in the general community would perceive as broken.

    This is the fourth thread for class mains and my goal is to have one to refer to each class in a megathread with the most agreed upon ideas being stated in the post, along with the reason why the idea is being suggested. Like Sorceress, Tamer also has a lot of work done to identify her issues. Most prominently I have Irrelevant's thread: https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?threads/tamer-technical-issues-with-video.106342/ which Identifies bugs and the like, however I will also look through threads like this one: https://community.blackdesertonline.com/index.php?threads/tamer-rework-random-ideas.138958/ to try and see what tamers agree on in terms of balance and changes. If you have any other threads or Ideas you want to make sure get heard please don't hesitate to post below. Also like sorc, if you have discussions from third party software or In-game screen capped, please post them here to allow for easier collection of the vast amount of work done on this issue.

    And without further ado


    From you, the Tamer main community I ask: From your experience, what do you believe tamer needs to have buffed? What do you believe needs to be nerfed? What are some Quality of Life changes you would like to see that don't overtly affect balance, but may make the class more enjoyable to play? Finally, are there any bugs you would wish to address?

    For all these suggestions please provide some justification for them. While all responses are welcomed, longer and more detailed ones give me a better idea of how you (and by extension the Tamer main community) view(s) Tamer as a whole. Since you are the resident experts on Tamer, giving the most amount of info possible to help explain things to those who aren't in the know will help make sure the class isn't nerfed or buffed beyond reason because of popular opinion and not objective analysis.




    Finally, if you have something to say about the class but have not played them, or plan to play them, extensively, please refrain from commenting. It is useful to have outsider opinion, but I want to separate the two so that the Staff (and hopefully devs) know what perspective the class is being seen from.
     
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  2. Ibirujo

    Ibirujo Ibirujo Tamer 61 EU

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    Well, most was already mentioned in the thread mentioned above. But I would personally like a rework of absorb heilang. They could make it a permanent selfbuff until you re-summon heilang, so that you can still play without heilang because he's bugged and unreliable. Other than that I would like an aoe range increase on some abilities, mostly for pve but would also help dealing with multiple people.
     
  3. Nihilla

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    I feel as though Heilang: Howling being on either no cooldown (for recuced damage, but still attracts enemy attention), or works even while on cooldown (no stiffness/stun while on cooldown) would be a minor change that might make the skill useful (to at least some capacity). As it is right not, 2min for a channeled attack (Heilang channels, not the player), and with how it can sort of fail if Heilang is doing certain attacks/things when you press to use the skill (still goes on 2min cooldown despite not being used), is unreliable, and not enough damage/value to be worth it.

    Having combat while riding Heilang actually be useful/interesting may be broad, but it's something that I would have loved. Even now there's no reason to do combat while riding Heilang, and no reward for the risk if you even tried it in any meaningful scenario. Having more awakened skills somehow be used while riding Heilang would be cool, which has been brought up in the past since the release of awakening, but again, it's not as though I have any solid thoughts on what/how it would be.

    Aside from that, I kind of like how Tamers are presently, given I play more PvE than PvP most of the time, and thus experience small-scale PvP at most.
     
  4. Karma555

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    I think that on paper, the Tamer's toolkit is fine. The only problem is - half the time they don't work. Would it be possible to get extended SA on some of the SA skills? Even half a second would be plenty - to account for desync and the like.

    Additionally, Tamer is completely useless in large scale PvP. Siege guilds go out of their way to advertise the fact that they will take any class except Tamer. Having even one or two skills to assist in this would go a long way for the class.

    Finally - in an extended fight we get into trouble because:

    1. In PvP, we have terrible sustain.
    2. Outside of short-ranged burst mobility, we are a super slow class (running speed). Wizards and Witches outpace me.

    Together, these issues compound so that when we get in a fight, we have to fight, and we have to win quickly. Extending the fight or trying to run dramatically increases the chance that we'll die.

    *Edit - Actually, I would take back everything I said above if PA just removed the 30% extra damage we take from magic. For like, no reason.
     
    #4 Karma555, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2018
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  5. Syun

    Syun Seeon Tamer 61 NA

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    Moonlight strike and diceroll WW...

    I can straight up have the upper hand vs someone 40 gs higher than me, but moonlight ccs and WW will be the death of me. I won't talk about moonlight because it has been beat to death.

    WW is a good skill all because it has iframe but would it kill anyone to lengthen the iframe state. WW puts tamer in a sub optimal unawakened state with the slowest class trying to move away to transition safely back into bo staff. Players can straight up cc us out of this, tamers never WW through opponents because of this. When we dont get cc'd in WW is when the enemy AoE is too small to reach us in the partial non iframe state. It's dumb because our only forward moving mobilities are the buggiest. LBP, Moonlight Strike, and WW.

    On a side note, Can we have increased mobility yet? Grind sucks when the fastest movement during camps is sprint hold with WW in staff held down. Ninjas grind faster and they apparently suck at grinding, that means we must swallow.
     
    #5 Syun, Mar 12, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2018
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  6. thejr

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    well before rabam skills comes out I can not judge well but for me tamer need many changes not in damage if not in mechanics like some that we have been waiting for for years and dev just ignore alls post cuz dead class FeelsBadMan. I will put some examples, not all.

    1- Legendary beast´s power: make it super armor reliable ( https://bdocodex.com/us/skill/1941/ )
    2- Shift+E buff [Healing: Berserk]: useless in 90% of cases i need to unsummon my pet and re summon, So bad for mass pvp not time to summon my pet back when I have 3 ninja and 4 kunos circling in stealth for killing my ass ( https://bdocodex.com/us/skill/1899/ )
    3- Legendary beast dance: this skill make me thinking to delete my char why so unreliable like lbp ????? i se players just hitting buttons like ape cuz they know i can gent random cc 50% of the time ( https://bdocodex.com/us/skill/1925/ )
    4-Moonlight strike: trash skill plz stop just listen to NA/EU players 1 ****ing time stop making changes base in korea server we all know our server is crap. Just make moonlight strike full super armor ( https://bdocodex.com/us/skill/1932/ )
    5- Soaring Kick :no super armor trash delete this from the game like all grabs skills and nerf block. ( https://bdocodex.com/us/skill/134/ )
    6- Nerf mystic/striker/musa/maewha/ranger/sorcs any free magic def, and evasion , stealth from kuno,ninja
    7- remove this ******** take 30% from magic damage now with the ap change any witch or wizzard with blizzard destroys my little ass
    8- fix server beacuse 60% of the time my iframe does not work like Clound stomping ,leave dropping and gust
     
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  7. rximmortal

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    Grab having SA.
     
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  8. Karma555

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    1. Agree Syun and thejr with fixing Moonlight Strike and Legendary Beast Power. These two skills should work as intended, all the time.
    2. Agree with superarmor for grab (Soaring Kick).
    3. And finally, please remove the 30% extra magic damage we take. Why is this even a thing?
     
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  9. Raens

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    Yea the Moonlight-into-istant-knock-down-bug happens almost all the time. They really need to rework that skill.
     
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  10. Hooters

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    Grab missed 90% the time though. But it's to be expected when our grab is a kick and we have short legs :(
     
  11. rximmortal

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    my grab connects 90% of the time :thinking:
     
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  12. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 61 NA

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    Resummoning Heilang from Absorb, though I wish they would remove it, fits with the skill. Just thought i'd cry a little bit there.

    Though for our Shift+E buff in awakened, I see no reason for Heilang to despawn after the buff timer is up. It's unnecessary and just poorly designed. Heilang should stay summoned after this duration.

    Extend the distance we travel with LBP by about 50%, make it about 50% faster travel.

    Give Soaring Kick super armor.

    Fix the buggy SA on LBP and Moonlight Strike.

    Increase the damage of AoE skills significantly while mounted on Heilang. Even if it's only good for PvE i don't care.

    Give us increased damage reduction while in Super Armor. Doesn't have to be a ton, but enough to notice.

    Increase the magic DP debuff on Flash and Garuda by 10% each (i don't care if other tamers think these skills are garbage, at the very least in high tier PvE this would be amazing).

    Put Super Armor on Flow: Leap.

    Put Super Armor on the rebound of Flow: Geyser

    Remove Flow: Tree Bound, ain't nobody got time for that.

    I could go on, i really could...but most other tamers won't care about the little things.
     
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  13. Shynxie

    Shynxie Tamer 61 EU

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    Quality of Life changes:
    1. Pet doesn't de-spawn in Water.
    2. Super armor on pet summon. (Make pet summon spam-able but with a cooldown on the super armor of X)
    3. Super armor on Absorb Heilang. (casting, not duration)
    4. Heilang doesn't despawn using Absorb (rename skill if you care or make it auto summon pet at the end of it's duration.)
    5. Super armor on Heilang Berserk. (casting, not duration)
    6. Heilang doesn't despawn after Heilang Berserk.
    7. Pet summons automatically on aggressive.
    8. PvE buffs like everybody else!

    These are changes that would not directly affect damage but make using cool-downs and the pet a little less of a chore. So much time is wasted de-summoning (cd), summoning, setting to aggressive bla bla bla boring, lets keep game-play fun! Most of these mechanics are completely un-necessary in the first place and I find myself wondering who thought this was a good idea. They're also changes that other classes already have, like witch/wiz with super armor on there pet summon/swap and no de-spawn in water, and many classes have super armor on there awakening buff.

    Questionable Changes:
    9. Super armor on Soaring Kick. (grab) Maybe a little arguable whether this is quality of life or not. Some classes have it, some don't, i'm jealous, end of story.
    10. Super armor/frontal block on Heilang: Roaring. I just think it'd be cool if this skill was useful.
    11. Frontal block and increased dash range on Flash. More mobility, more fun.
    12. Heilang Berserk, remove the pet invincibility, its kinda useless since the pet change. Add something fun like double pet (balance damage) or whatever, just something that's actually useful.
    13. Increase AoE range. Just trying to make myself more useful in node/siege.
    14. Heilang Howling is useless, whats with the cooldown? Give it a short cooldown and damage or a short cooldown and make it debuff mobs.

    Fixes:
    15. Moonlight strike is so buggy, I get cc'ed randomly during it. Same with LBP though less so.
    16. WW iframe duration makes me sad. If a full duration iframe is OP i'd rather a mechanic similar to Musa/Maehwa where it changes to super armor.

    Overall my thoughts on Tamer, we're a very slow assassin which seems a little strange to me. We have a slow PvE clear speed. We have a kit that offers nothing in large scale PvP due largely to clunky buggy mobility or lack of and very small AoE ranges with a lack of burst. I'm not asking to be overpowered, I would just rather not have my class be a joke or feel I need to re-roll to be useful in the part of the game I want to play. The best part of tamer and one of the only reasons I stuck it out so long was because the 1v1 is enjoyable... plus Heilang is cute.
     
    #13 Shynxie, Mar 13, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
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  14. nyuuki

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    Revert change to shift+W+LMB that allowed tamer to move as fast as maewha.

    Make summon heilang as well as all other pet skills super armor.

    remove frontal guard from moonlight strike and change it to invincible while moving and super armor on contact.

    allow for tamer to use surging tide, scratch, trembling, and roaring from awakening combat stance.

    Change functionality of Heilang:howling to heilang does a aoe pull similar to valk/mystic.

    make surging tide aoe the same radius as witch/wizard blizzard.

    make roaring have frontal guard and super armor.
     
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  15. Alrikmerc

    Alrikmerc Grimmdhal Tamer 61 NA

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    Oh...forgot something important from mine. Two things I think that would make tamer much better in group PvP at least.

    Decrease the CD on Scratch to 4 seconds at max rank.
    Give Trample super armor. This skill is used as a cancel for a lot that we do, it puts a painful gap in our already shabby protection.
     
  16. Karma555

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    Not sure if you're serious or not. This would turn us from the bad kind of broken to the OP kind of broken.
     
  17. irrelevant

    irrelevant Fiery Tamer 62 EU

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    absolutely essential / must have :

    Moonlight strike
    should be fully protected, literally every other class in the game has fully protected engage except tamer and while kuno has lunar dash as well they have more options than tamer does. Right now its unreliable and inconsistent and buggy as hell and half of the time i get cced with it is when no one is behind me while the other half of the time i get cced is because someone randomly used an ability that goes thru fg (delighted blast or even maehwa skills) or just straight up phases through me (ranger breezy blade) and ccs me

    the skill already has slower speed and less damage than most other engages (altho it does have a good hitbox) so the very least it can get is a reliable protection

    either full sa + fg on hit either iframe + sa on hit as someone else suggested which is actually a good suggestion

    legendary beast power should be 100% working SA, it already has cooldown and it's much slower than musa/maehwa chase so there's no reason why it's also worse? technically it's the "same concept" but it's 10000000000 times worse and its buggy as hell and it's the biggest problem for this class along with moonlight, the inconsistency of this skill can make even the nicest person go postal

    awakening iframes should be fixed cause there are times when they don't get used even when they are not on cd.



    very logical and reasonable but for some reason things we don't have when they make sense? :

    legendary beast dance
    should be buffed on all forms except vermillion cause as it is right now the other forms are really bad. I've suggested in older threads on how to buff the skill, tldr give different dots to the different versions of the skill. Increase the aoe and range of black turtle and white tiger. The cooldown is SHARED between all forms and vermillion does more damage, has better hit application and has a dot and it even moves u the best out of all versions so there;'s no reason to use the other versions (they have their uses ofc, especially azure dragon but its much worse).

    heilang howling should have stun and lower cooldown but i also liked someone's suggestion for a pull / vacuum effect in pvp but honestly the game doesn't need any more pulls or lame effects like that and if anything they should be removed out of everything (maybe except blackhole). I think stun is more appropriate

    heilang berserk should have superarmor on cast and it shouldn't desummon the pet, how is this still not in the game .. oh right pa doesn't know anything about tamer

    roar / fearful tremble/ surging tide should swap to shortsword from awakening and i said that like a week after awakening came out probably

    we should have the option to lock the soft cd on skills soft-cd means you can use the skill off-cooldown but without sa or fg and all classes have this but it's hurting tamer incredibly much because all your skills have soft CD and thats SUPER bad for pvp, it not only increases class complexity and difficulty to play by a ton but it even "increases" your cooldowns. For example if i use LBP > SA i can spam lbp (space shift) while in SA and when the LBP is off cd it'll activate itself with "perfect timing". But if i use random skill that has soft cd > SA > i can't use that skill again until i 100% confirm that it's off CD which in a heated pvp is really hard to do when half of your kit is soft-cooldowns and even if you're able to do it (which i mostly am) you still need an extra moment to confirm visually that it's off cd while if you could just lock the soft cd you could just hold the button to get it done

    surging tide heilang attack doesn't work since awakening came out unless heilang is in passive mode and you're standing still, that stuff was great in pre awaken times but then it got bugged and it hasn't received any attention since

    awakening ult should be allowed to ani cancel (just like ranger can, and like pre awaken ult can be) and it should have reliable CC effect ( like warrior ult which always works) and not this wonky broken cc that doesnt work half of the time and you also die 80% of the time you use the ult in grp pvp and it's really bad without having superbuff

    i would say these are super reasonable changes that wouldn't break the class in any way and only make sense and should have been in the game a long time ago


    even if you magically applied all the things i asked for so far the class would barely change to outsiders but to tamer players it would even make the game fun, these things are incredibly illogical and annoying to deal with and these will surely make the class better without any actual major changes and in general everything would remain the same.. just much better

    potential buffs (not adjustments or fixes as asked above but straight up skill improvements) :

    heilang berserk
    should receive double the bonuses it does now or it should increase dmg or something, even if you literally doubled its bonuses it would still be on par with other superbuffs (worse than some even then)

    flow: intimidation should have frontal guard and increased damage. It would give an entirely different playstyle and opening/fishing for tamer with such an incredibly small change you could achieve so much. As it is right now the skill is barely useable but if it had FG (The animation literally suggests its a fg) the skill could have a ton of use, especially considering its already used as animation cancel in some scenarios (outside of grp pvp ofc where you cant use anything)

    echo pierce should heal for a fixed amount on use like mystic spiral torpedo and now warrior pulverize which was changed afterwards - all fighters in the game have sustain (Minus musa maehwa but theyre op so w/e) except tamer and in a rbf you spend 75% of the time just being low hp and potting up, the skill already heals you but it needs a target and it doesn't heal for enough. Both kuno and ninja have amazing heals in comparison while tamer has none

    grab superarmor - everyone else has it so why not.. i personally dont like superarmor on any class's grabs and i believe other classes should lose theirs and not tamer should gain on it but w/e

    flash (preawa) - frontal guard

    pole thrust (flash's followup) - superarmor

    tree climb - iframe even on collision with a target, just reduce the duration of the iframe if you collide. The skill is too garbage as it is right now - the rewards are huge for pulling a tree climb off but it's buggy and messy and you can get stuck in the air even if people just pass around and alies can sabotage you and in general using the skill isnt fun or good at all, if you still retain the iframe while in the air tho (the duration of the hit animation can be reduced to not be overpowered) the skill would be incredibly viable. It also has a flow to follow up with surging tide and finally if then this skill could actually make sense

    flow: ascension pls just remove this skill i don't even want to look at it. It's SO BAD. This skill is literally the WORST SKILL out of all pre awaken and awaken skills in the entire game, even normal kicks are better than ascension this skill is some sort of a horrible joke. I did suggest it can be reworked to a superarmor staff spin hit around you with a knockdown which would be great but its unlikely that happens but this is the buff section so yes - change the skill to a spin (gravedigger style) type attack with knockdown effect (since tamer lacks knockdown effect) and superarmor

    give a passive skill to tamer which is the following:
    slippery or conditioned (since tamer LITERALLY is training on a mountain with some zen-fu dude whos all chi zen and meditation and stuff) and tamer is also a PETITE TEENAGE GIRL (in lore included) so there's absolutely no reason why tamer is one of the easiest classes to grab in the entire game as you have long animation locks and are PURELY MELEE- the passive should either make you completely ignore/resist a grab every 30 seconds or it should give you 30% grab resist or something like that - it isn't farfetched as witch/wiz have increased stiffness resistance and as classes like musa and maehwa have knockback penetration and other classes have 30% grab ignore which is silly but if we have this passive it counteracts it and makes complete sense

    OR the passive could just increase tamer movement speed (like ranger has), or both

    flow: full moon i suggested for that skill to be reworked a long time ago - i suggested increased cooldown and the animation can remain the same (even the damage can remain the same) but the skill commands heilang to do a huge frontal attack with similar animation to musa's crust crusher flow and the reasoning for this is the following -
    increased CD so the skill can't be used as often as now as it will be more powerful so this is compensate for the increased power
    the pet attack could do reasonable damage (same as LBD followup or slightly lower) but it should have a hitbox because that way tamer will have presence in mass fights - you could flank a zerg and do moonlight > flow and have your pet do aoe damage (similar to say sorc grim judgement reaper but with lower damage) while being "safe" (not by actually being safe as tamer but by relying on the pet to do damage and the pet is immortal so that's your safety - just like ranged classes have safety in their range you can make tamer have safety in doing damage by using the pet). This is a good suggestion cause it increases the synergy between girl+ pet and it follows the concept of the class and it doesn't break it + it gives it some mass pvp viability

    that way you could effectively contribute to death-ball-blob fights with some amount of damage as i suggest this skill to have a long hit range (like witch thunderstorm for example) but it wont have any CC effects and it'll still do lower damage than big skills (like sorc GRJ or witch thunder storm or even warrior ult). It won't be overpowered and it'll make tamer feel much better to play in group pvp



    even if you listened to me and added all those changes in an instant -

    tamer will still be incredibly squishy so you could easily be killed on SA if you dont use frontal guards or iframes and if you dont defend yourself from enemy attacks - this literally wont change anything from how it is now cause i didnt ask for any changes regarding tamer tankiness just how the class works
    tamer will still have huge reliance on frontal guards (allround,garuda, potential intimidation with buff, full moon, the pre awaken stuff) so the class could be outplayed or flanked and you could fail by using FG against a fg ignore skill (such as tendon slicer or block jump or slashing the dead or spiral torpedo)
    tamer enemies can still exploit the fact that tamer will rely on fully channeling LBD or allround for damage so they can either try grab or do damage and in general keep their movements more or less telegraphed (unless tamer does animation cancel which should be encouraged cus it increases player action and skill required but if done you also lose a part of your damage for not fully channeling the skills in the first place)

    also, bolt/jolt are still unprotected, beast rampage is still unprotected , whiplash is still unprotected, cds on some skills are still high so these all remain

    most enemies won't even feel most of these changes since most of those are incredibly frustrating buffs or weak mechanics that tamer has to deal with but they are not there "all the time "and people have the tendency to cherry pick moments so enemies dont remember how often their enemy tamer gets cced in moonlight but they remember how often they get cced by moonlight and in their mind the skill already works perfectly when in reality that isnt the case - but if you follow these changes that'll become the case and the enemies wont even feel it but tamer motivation will increase hundred-fold

    none of these ask for damage increases and you still have a ton of ways to be killed or to make a mistake and in general the changes are even very minor in terms of animations and don't require anything new (except a few) and just need a bit extra effects of what it already has

    if all this is added tamer would be way more fun to play and id say it would do it's role way better

    and lastly

    one of the biggest improvement for tamer would be to nerf the already overpowered classes which isn't related to tamer itself
     
    #17 irrelevant, Mar 14, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2018
  18. Dracico

    Dracico Unravel NA

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    To me we need quite a lot of things on the tamer to be even remotely competitive vs some other op classes.

    -Viable SA on LBP and Moonlight and LBD, even though this shouldn't be considered a up, it's a plain bugfix.
    -LBP should be, in my opinion, a sort of toggle. As long as you use it, you stay in SA and continuously move in LBP. The spell would drain stamina quite quickly, but would give a protected / semi fast engage to the Tamer (Which is a full melee class).
    -A new passive, cause I'm sorry, but +25LT is not egal to +20 AP the wizard has. Tamer should have a evasion, movespeed or some resist ignore passive.
    -A new buff. Heilang absorb is so weak compared to other buffs.
    -Heilang improvement. Heilang needs to not despawn in water, be more reliable overall in fight, and maybe do slightly more damage.
    -Allround spinner need SA, not frontal guard.
    -Maybe slightly increase grab range. Maybe it's because of my ping, but more often than not the grab just doesn't want to grab the enemy.
    -Marod Star outfit
    -Frontal guard on Beast Rampage
    -Heilang berzerk is bad, I don't know how to improve it.
    -Overall increased accuracy on skill. We have one of the lowest bonus accuracy rates. Melee classes should have way more acc than ranged classes.
    -Tree climb and flurry of kicks are 2 useless spells.
     
  19. Shadowfibby

    Shadowfibby Tamer 61 NA

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    So... like every other meta class right, I'm all for it then XD
     
  20. Von_Blaumark

    Joined:
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    First off, thanks for starting this thread and bringing together all the opinions and ideas.

    Secondly, something funny from the recently changed official homepage
    tilt.jpg
    Seriously? Don't they even know their own classes at all? Please PA and/or Kakao refrain from writing complete nonsense like this. Only serves to frustrate your players later on.


    And my contribution:
    - how come that tamer as a combo focused class is the ONLY one (besides Wiz/Witch) that doesn't have a downsmash on any of her skills? Even on the flow of allround spinner there is only one of the rare knowdown effects. Combo means being able to extend combo

    - speaking of knockdowns, how come tamers get knockdown (PVE only) on skills like Jolt Wave while warrior gets downsmash (only in PVP) on a skill like ankle break: flow?

    - clarification and rework of SA on Legendary Beast Dance. There are 4 different variants with different animation lengths each. Black turtle has no SA apparently and how long the SA is on Azure Dragon is a wild guess at best

    - extend hit boxes/area of effect on many tamer skills. The fact that we can hardly do damage on the move means our attacks should have the range to at least hit a target that's slightly moving or is slightly off due to desync
     
    Assilma likes this.

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