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The Current and Future State of Tamer and Why It Need's To Be Addressed

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Molleh, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. Tee Kup

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    +1 please fix Tamer! Tamer has always been the class that really draws me in and I love her so much that I continue with her even while being pushed down by the devs. I have tried every other class so far over the years and none can hold my interest like Tamer. The aesthetics of the class are really just perfect to me. It is so sad that she's gotten to this point where it seems like the devs just want to make Tamer mains extinct. Rerolling should never have to be an option and does not solve anything in the end.
     
    #41 Tee Kup, Jul 5, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2020
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  2. Mr_Rata

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    Im tamer 281/274/315.. in nodes or red battlefield feel very weak, feel like even air kill me, a lot of classes kill me with one or two skils.. I Have to do entire combo,and maybe kill enemy.. Please save our lolis !!
     
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  3. Dexo 2

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    Tamer ult was one of the most if not the most broken ult in the game which could basically kill atleast 15 people in one ult. It needed nerfs. BUT the class now needs good sa skills to exchange the ult nerf. Nerfing ult and giving better sa skills would deffinetly make sense, but knowing pa it is very unlikely that will happen anytime soon, because the "balance" never works out the way you want..
     
  4. Molleh

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    You raise a very good point;

    I do believe this is brushed over in the original post, as stated it was very powerful but it was certainly the only thing that made us relevant in a large scale scenario. Unfortunately just giving tamer a couple of SA skills wouldn't fix the gap that ulti would leave. It's a process that I agree, will not be short nor will it be perfect without trial or error but I am sure there is some form of conclusion that can me come to that allows us a niche or a general role in a large scale fight.
     
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  5. LigtZ

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    Putting my thoughts here to address Tamers state at the moment. As a long time Tamer player I have played through multiple patches and seen its playstyle evolve through the years and arguably the playstyle we had prior to this patch was the most unhealthy, going around ulting raids from V and then feeling subpar for the rest of the siege/nw. However the current patch Tamer feels awful to play, all the damage is gone that could have been used in anything that's not a pure isolated 1v1 and in return we take more damage and are losing our only saving grace in siege. I am not saying Tamers ult was a healthy way of balancing the class, it was more like a crutch the class rested on but now you have taken it off from us making us fall and then proceeded to kick us for good measure.

    Tamers core issue is from the very bottom is that the best way for the "strongest 1v1 class" to get an engagement out of an enemy is to run away and hoping that they chase her and get caught. Now I am not much of a developer but I think there is a massive flaw if as the supposed best duelist in the game you have to rely on enemies running after you to get the fight that you desire. The fact is Tamer lacks any tools to force these 1v1 engagements like for example Ninja/kuno that can easily use burst mobility from nowhere and also get stealth and are at the same time considered great duelists. The best example of tamers lack of ability to punish enemies is that its completely impossible to punish an awakened witchard, the lowest mobility class in the game if they don't either teleport into you or decide to stand still and cast spells speaks volumes of how poor the class is at punishing a class with 1 mobility spell and for the rest of the time they literally just sprint away and that's enough to stay away from you.

    Now how to fix this you may ask, well there are many opinions about this but in my opinion the best way to fix this is to modernize the current pet into the current age. It has always felt quite lackluster as the og pet class that we had to beg for years for features awakened witchards have from the get go. The pet is a buggy mess that is made to punish bad players and is a liability for good tamers due to how buggy it is in nature and AI.

    All I am asking is to bring Tamer to a state where you don't have to rely on your opponent literally doing the objectively worst move possible when it comes to fighting the so claimed best duelist in the game and to give us some agency to actually work as a skirmishers during fights.
     
  6. Karma555

    Karma555 Tamer 63 NA

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    +1 Fix Tamer please. I have been playing this class for over three years.

    She was squishy before the nerfs, with a very broken kit. We took the few parts of the kit that did work and made something out of it. Now with less damage to Flash/Pole Thrust/Stance Shift, along with losing damage on Resonance (Rabam), it severely limits the combo potential of the class. Her pre-awakened kit is fairly gutted.

    This coupled with the increased damage we take from virtually every class removes the potential for damage trade exchanges. We will never SA trade with anyone because 9/10 times we will lose. This leaves the grab engage as the only real viable way to fight. But what's more is that the damage nerfs force us to extend our combos with more skills. In largescale combat, sticking around for more than 2-3 seconds gets you killed. Now you would say that Tamer's 100% makes her something to watch out for on the battlefield, but with the incoming 21% BSR nerf, even that option is off the table.

    Her small AoEs and lack of ranged skills also leave a lot to be desired. So many other classes can just kite her to death, or just damage trade from out of range. She lacks the mobility to gap close against competent players without being punished heavily for it.
     
  7. The-TJ

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    Most of tamer's issues exist since release of her awakening and since the rework of the entire cc and protection system.
    The main flaw of the class is that it is suppose to be fast, but in case of the skills you can use it isnt.
    First of all after the remove of moonlight as a core engage and catch (cc was nice, but SA is just better), there is no good way of punishing an opponent, without grab or having him run into a CC. Ofc the pet and pet abilites have a good bit of "********" factor and are tilting to play against, but they dont replace a good reactive catch ability.
    Second is that besides moonlight into fullmoon, fearful and surging tamer never had good burst ability. Everything was relying on the high dmg from allround spinner and its pet attack. Rabams were introduced, giving us the straight up powerhouse that resonace is, which fixed the problem to a certain extend.
    Third would be just a little heads up to all the unreliability the class has. It isn't just a problem for the class alone, but there are a lot of diffrent factors, that would improve the class immediately. The fact that dashs are shortened, when hit by abilities, the SA at the beginning of void or the pray to not let the server desync and make your WW actually iframe. To just name a few.
    After all, tamer was never in a great state and that shouldnt be a surprise to anyone in the community. For 1v1 the class was always just overloaded because of cancels and enough protection for 1v1s. Large scale always brough the random factor to the table and paired with a bit of unreliability, the vast 1v1 kit was reduced to dash in, pray for cc, allroundspinner into resonace and get the **** out. It worked out, because those two spells packed such a damage threat. 100% BSR bombing became a thing. There should be no discussion about it. An ability to kill people so efficient and reliable just is overpowered, but it gave the class a clear direction for large scale, which was missing for a long time and needed.
    Now with balance patches coming in ofc someone would address some of the obvious too strong spell. With that the 100% BSR, normal allroundspinner and resonance were nerfed and some of the damage was put to less used and more combo reliant spells.
    A lot will agree, that the 100% should be nerfed and that is what happened and will happen more specific as well.
    In my opinion the nerf was deserved, but at the wrong place. 100% BSR nerf was needed, nerfing allroundspinner and resonce on the other hand would sure make a diffrence to the class, because they are the strongest spells in tamer's kit. Those changes won't nerf her overwhelming 1v1 capabilities, but only cut down on the already weak large scale performance.
    I guess it's still too early too say how dead the class is. Somehow people were able to kill others without resonace before it existed.
    It just seems a bit, that there is too much drama with everyone going crazy, because they can no longer get their 100% multi kills in sieges.Time will tell how big the nerf is, because people will have to get used to not playing a 5 min 30s 100% BSR class anymore.
     
  8. Hengeko

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    +1 pls Fix Tamer!
     
  9. Doneitta

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    I completely agree with the initial post. Tamers need to be fixed or buffed somehow. She was literally the only reason I even bought the game in the first place two years ago. I've also tried other characters but she is the only one I actually care about. Alot of people say we need to be nerfed but most of the people who say this probably never even played with her to see just how difficult it is for us already. I understand that you guys want to balance her but she already imo is the squishiest character receiving higher amounts of damage than any other characters and her hits do considerably less dmg to most besides the bsr. Like its a serious problem when a full dp Shai with basically no ap can break a lvl61 tamer's full boss gear amd over 300dp forward guard and kill her with a just a few hits and take large amounts of her health when we're at equal gs and lvl.
     
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  10. Cahir

    Cahir Sorceress 63 EU

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    Tamer rework!!!
    Players needs to play big bad Wolf with small girl as pet, not other way around.
     
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  11. Molleh

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    Is quite contradictory to the rest of the post, I don't think this qualifies as going crazy or being "drama", however you're within your rights to deem it as what ever you feel.
    I do believe that you understand that it's not a matter of "time will tell" as you've outlined yourself that the changes that tamer received in the past; Rabam and 100% BSR, made her relevant in a large scale setting and these more recent changes will revert that relevancy.

    I also don't think that the uproar is about "not getting multi kills in sieges anymore" but more so the fact that, due to the fundamental aspects of tamer, taking these aspects from her in specific and making her squishier really reduces the ability to carry out the role of which we are expected to carry out, or the make-shift role which the band-aid also known as our ultimate gave us.

    Oddly extremely critical ending on a post that was seemingly understanding on what the target of the issue is.
    Try not to dampen your extremely insightful viewpoint as I am sure anyone reading it will find everything you said in the first place to be irrelevant when you go back on it in the conclusion!
    <3
     
  12. Minimag

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    +1 pls Fix Tamer!
     
  13. The-TJ

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    You have a good point. The end contridicts the first part by a lot. In the first part I listed a lot of problems with the class, mostly old ones. I tried to outline the fact, that the class has some desing flaws for a long time and a lot of complains have been done in the past.
    Still players found a way around it and were able to bring results in PvP. Sure a lot rerolled as well, but people stuck with the class and tried to make the best out of the situation.
    Maybe the post was a bit too harsh in the end, so i will rephrase my complain. You stated yourself that the role definition of tamer was never there. The class just wasn't specialized enough. At the same time it was the class' greatest strenght, because there was no specialization and players could use her and make her fit the current situation.
    The fact that our 100% BSR role is nerfed doesnt make the class useless overall. The fact that there is no easy understandable role anymore is the problem players have and that's the drama I was refering to. In the last month everyone was just so focsed on the 100% BSR that they forgot about the entire rest of the kit and its possibilities. Now they have to play that skill set again and practice on that more. And that is why i refer to "time will tell", because everyone has to practice and perfect something other than bombing.
     
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  14. LeMiau

    LeMiau Tamer 63 NA

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    +1 to fix tamer. stop handing out nerfs if you're not gonna fix other issues in the same go. our BS skill was OP af, sure nerf it, but then balance us out in other ways. I love the class, weapon, etc, but I literally have to pump out 6 skills to get what other people do in two or three- I am okay with high skill floor, I figured that out real quick with Tamer that that's how she is, but to kick us when we're already down? please.

    Heilang is glitchy af, sometimes deciding to attack, other times he glitches like crazy teleporting all over the place, and his cc stacking with Tamer's ability is janky at best and can often contradict the combo you're going for- his AI sucks and needs a rework terribly. Don't get me started in general about the majority of our mobility SAs and our kit in general is terrible. We're also pretty meh in NW too expect when we could ULT bomb and kinda peck at people on the sidelines, but I honestly hate NW as a Tamer; I go on my kuno (which I'm absolutely terrible at) and am more effective with swooping in and spin2win- and live to tell the tale.

    PA said in the Heidel ball that they don't want meta chasers and are getting rid of class change tickets, yet they nerf the class to the point it isn't viable...? I've stuck it out for years with Tamer, knowing I wasn't a meta class, and knowing I would have to hustle like crazy for my kills; I accepted this, but why make it worse for us, while buffing and allowing other classes that much more power? I don't get it.
     
  15. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    Well, the idea is that most Tamers already tried to get the best of every skill / cancel / acceleration Tamer class has.
    I don't think the "Ult bomb" role is appreciated anyway, just watch how tamers are trying to find new possibilities, how they believe in their class.

    So no, "time will not tell", the recent modifications won't deeply change one skill or another, they won't open new possibilities or closing old ones, most of the mechanics are known and we don't complain about the 100% "because we love being ult bombs" , but because it is a big nerf without any counterpart.

    Personally, even before this change I would have been happy to trade the awak 100% BSR for a good class-specific mechanics.
     
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  16. Eoky

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    +1 Tamer rework!

    If they're going to nerf the player skills and give nothing, I want an overhaul to Heilang's skills and give me full control of them as though he were my C-swap weapon. If they do rework Tamer, I would want to see Heilang be involved in at least half of everything I do, inside combat and outside combat... because why not capitalize on the partnership?

    .. I'm just going to remain optimistic that this is just supposed to make room for more changes in the future, there is certainly no shortage of suggestions for fixing it.

    I'm kind of glad that there is a really active discussion about it, at least.<3
     
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  17. toxicitybdosa

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    +1 Fix Tamer please!
     
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  18. Chigasaki

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    It's great to see the community coming together in support of this issue, and thank you to everyone who has given their feedback and ideas.

    In order to keep this is a conversation, and not just a list of complaints, I'd love to hear from the developers. If we could be given some specific ways in which we can help address the concerns we have brought up, I'm sure the awesome Tamer community will jump right on it. Here are some potential ways I've come up with:

    We could brainstorm a list of new ideas for skills. We could dig down and create a list of issues we are having with specific skills or combos. We could potentially help in gathering specific data. We could get more active Tamers playing on the test servers to identify issues before they make it to live servers.

    The Tamer community is really motivated right now to help in any way we can. I hope we can get some direction while that motivation lasts.

    Also, thank you to the developers and community managers, not only for taking the time to work with us, but for making and supporting such a great game that we all love so much.
     
  19. The-TJ

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    I've been playing tamer for a long time and yes, i would have traded a buff on other skils for the 100% BSR any day.
    I will have to disagree tho, that everything has been tested so far. The patch nerfed skills, but also buffed skills. Sure those skills can't replace the easy damage accessability, but they open new possibilities.
    The buff to moonlight opens it up as a damage option and makes it less viable as a movement option. Intimidation became a true powerhouse after all the buffs to it. Vermillion, even tho it was buffed, is becoming less and less important. Resonance is still a good damage spell, but due to the nerfs it's more affordable as a SA rotation spell instead of a pure damage focused combo skill. All the little stuff can make a diffrence in playstyle and positioning.
    And for nw and sieges, players have to be creative to find spots that fit their class and their playstyle. With that even a "****" tamer can become a valueable asset to any guild.
     
  20. Monkey D.

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    I don't agree with you.

    In fact the skill which have been buffed are just for be as same level as before or garbage skill such garuda.

    Basically all the pre awakening has been nerfed less some skills which remain the same. It damage is ridiculous. rip flash and trembling

    Using moonlight for damage instead of movement? ok, now tell me what can you use as gap closer. WW? Cloud ride?

    All rabam has been nerfed randomly, incluiding horror slam. This shouldn't be tolerated. Our less used skill being nerfed xdddd

    Intimadition is risky since is unprotected and very situational. vermilion doesn't deal enough damage, all the awakening skill which have been buffed are unprotected less moonlight and it flow which is garbage and really hard to land in real fight.

    I can be very creative going soaring for place a cannon because the other options are flame tower and hwacha but I want to kill people with my weapons not with war machines
     
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