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The Current and Future State of Tamer and Why It Need's To Be Addressed

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Molleh, Jul 5, 2020.

  1. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    I think you're being overly optimistic about the changes implied by this patch. It won't open incredible new paths for tamer as it mainly worked as a renewed balance between classes and awak/succ. Intimidation is not part of this patch and it has already been explored.

    They only tweaked some ratios, buffed skills by batches, forgot others, but you can't really say that new possibilities were opened with this patch and overall, we got severely nerfed.

    That does not change tamer's will to improve, I guess all tamers main still around are quite crazy and willing to keep getting the best from their class, but this is still a bad hit for a class that has to face many challenges when it comes to mass fights.
     
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  2. MalDes

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    +1 Support. Already being one of the least played classes and being insanely squishy with barely any skill protections, makes absolutely no sense to further add another nerf.

    All tamers are going to feel the effect. The ones that are already great at the class and highly geared might not feel much. But everyone else is basically screwed.
     
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  3. lanzend

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    Since we're talking specifically about the nerfs now, I'll repost what I wrote in the Tamer class forum as this clarifies:

    Just to be clear on exactly what the nerf is: While our damage was decreased overall when applied to most classes. Certain skills were increased to compensate for this. This compensation only covered specific skills, some skills receiving a 30% damage increase, others 15% and some succession skills 12% increase. This can be seen here:

    [​IMG]

    The 30% skills were for the most part, less important, non-core damage skills and/or were unprotected. The damage increase on them was deserved as the damage was meh for the most part. However, 30% of meh is still meh and after the baseline decrease of course it's not 30% anymore.

    The 15% increase skills were for the most part, not used often in PvP, BUT does include 3 key vital skills: Absolute Bolt, Absolute Jolt (both unprotected) and Allround Spinner (Protected, FG). The 15% doesn't change much since the baseline damage was reduced pretty close to that for most classes.

    However, what got missed was everything that DID NOT get any increase at all. The biggest one that comes to mind is Resonance, our most useful Rabam. It's some of the only protected damage we have and the damage while decent, was never that great on NA as a 0 crit, 0 accuracy skill (we got the post-KR-nerf version back in 2017). Some other abilities are: Our grapple (most of our combos start with this), Flash/Pole/Stance (used in many combos especially following Rabam Legendary Beast Claw, both nerfed without increase to compensate) and Fearful Trembling. There are going to be others depending on the player as play-styles and combos vary Tamer to Tamer. The above mentioned affect my combos/play-style the most.

    Looking at the above chart in full including all classes, seen here: https://i.redd.it/hxvccbu5qa451.png , Tamer damage increased LESS vs. most classes than damage taken from those classes were increased (we have changed to being more squishy to other classes than they have changed to being squishy to us).

    For example:

    Tamer(awk) > Warrior +10.46% (7 30% skills @ 17.7% increase each and 8 15% skills @ 4.12% each = 156.86/15 for average increase)
    Warrior (awk) > Tamer +23.28%

    Tamer (suc) > Warrior +1.4%
    Warrior (suc) > Tamer +12.08%

    Tamer (base, all other skills) > Warrior -9.46%
    Warrior (base, all other skills) > Tamer +12.08%

    And going down the list you will find that for majority of the classes (not all or most) we are made squishier than our damage was increased against those classes. Thus on average this patch is a nerf to Tamer overall. A class that is struggling to hold relevance in anything outside 1v1s in BA and even there, while opinions vary, barely makes top 5 depending on who you ask. While the top 3 1v1 classes (Sorc, Ninja, Kuno) are most definitely better in group fights than Tamer, and with our beast-master most certainly at the very bottom of the tier list in group fights, the larger the fight, the less impact she has.

    And lastly I'll mention in closing, her biggest issues for group fights are RNG "iframes" (see tool-tip for WW "Evasion" skill), lack of reliable disengage (see how buggy Cloud Stomping/Cloud Ride are in a real fight) and lack of protected damage.
     
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  4. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    from wizards perspective, your damage is more than fine. ouch.

    tamer vs wiz
    tamer vs wizard.jpg

    wiz vs tamer
    wizard vs tamer.jpg
     
    #64 WhySoSeeryus, Jul 8, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
  5. lanzend

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    I already know this is just a troll post. Just lemme know when I can has anything comparable to voltaic>frigid>fireball. Let me know when I can be the number 1 siege class and still be really good at every other aspect of the game (large scale, med scale, small scale, 1v1, PvE). Go bother another forum that's actually full of PreMadonnas like Sorc or Ninja. Thanks.
     
  6. Blarney77

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    I would like to agree about Tamers. Mine is really just my Fishing expert. She was too hard to do much with. Love my Lahn, Wizard, Mystic, and Sorc. But Tamer is just there to be cute and get me extra cash daily from the game. She's a great little Fishing Girl, but rarely calls for her big pet. Little tamer Fisher Erisanni(Master).JPG
     
  7. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    sadly, i dont have it either. its the bad twin spec that has these goodies.

    again, different spec. :D
     
  8. The-TJ

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    The fact that you just call all of the buffed skills garbage and dont even test something, is the reason i criticize the entire uproar. Changes can change the values of skills.
    Awakenings were always suppose to outvalue preawakening in damage, so buffing awakening is in line with the games intentions.
    Ofc moonlight will still be used to close the gap, but it is more focused now on actually hitting your enemy with it and not yeeting it to close the rest with LBP or leaves. And yeah WW or leaves are options to close distance, LBP is also a option anyway.
    Anyway if it is hard to hit moonlight and its flow in a real fight, you might need some training and will improve enough to do it.

    Maybe I'm overly optimistic, maybe I'm just not giving up on my class and try to do the best with the current possibilites instead of trying to get buffs and fixes. There havent been much changes in the past years, so I'm used to not giving up and deal with the kit I currently have.
    Sure not a lot of changes will be made, but even the smallest changes to the playstyle can have enough impact to your damage output.
    Intimidation was buffed last patch by 30%, because best rampage was buffed and intimidation scales with the damage of it. Accelerations are know for quite some time, but they dont use the full potential of intimidation, because they only need the first hit. Otherwise intimidation is a very versitile spell, so there are many ways of using it.
    Overall, yes the class was nerfed. They nerfed the big hitters, so we need to improve on fitting other spells in.
    In the end, there will be always still people playing the class, will do nw on it and go to sieges. I have seen enough tamers reroll, but I will probably stay on the class and do sieges with it till i quit the game.
     
  9. Sanberg

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    As a 4 years tamer main, i cant even express myself. Didnt try it on NWs yet but what i feel from BA, its first dead class of BDO
     
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  10. Ravenwulf

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    I also want to have my voice heard, and I want PA to see this message with every ounce of being I have. I've played Tamer since I started this game, and that was around 3 years ago. Tamer was never considered strong when I started getting into PvP, and a lot of people said she wasn't good in largescale at all. Her kit is fun to play, but it's clearly outdated compared to other classes that have had more thought put in to them since the game has become larger and has more funding. Most classes have a "press a button and you heal" while Tamer you actually have to be hitting something to regain health which our skill is unprotected and unrewarding, and in PvP is such a huge disadvantage against classes with that button heal, we have no sustain at all really. Heilang is...in words just way too clunky. He dosen't help at times, always is running around when there are multiple people, he can't decide on a target so therefore is useless in largecale. He's only really good in 1v1 situations and that's not 100% of the time. Heilang needs a HUGE rework, even to the point of just either have him not able to be summoned and to be part of the skill like mystic, or to keep him summoned forever, even if you die. It's seriously disadvantageous to have to summon Heilang after you die when people jump you the moment you get up and now can two shot you before you even finish the summon. We have to work harder to combo people to kill them, because our skills have barely enough damage to cut through their SA and blocks, while we sit there and take massive amounts of damage from one guardian swing. Now we are getting two shot through SA and blocks. Our one saving grace for large scale was nerfed, which was the BSA 100% All Around Spinner, and our damage was nerfed too. Who even decided to nerf Tamer? They need to seriously play this character thoroughly, because apparently no one in PA sees how bad she is in PvP, to the point they listened to one person cry about being killed by a Tamer and nerfed her in my opinion. In my feeling, when the game was first made Tamer was supposed to be like a Shai, meant for life skilling, but now we have a Shai, we have an actual legit life skilling character, with 10X better skills for life skilling. Tamer needs to be updated from it's old vanilla ways, and brought more into light with PvP and PvE content. This is what people want. I hope PA sees this message and take this advice from a person who absolutely is in love with this class and wants to be a viable part of PvP and war. Please respect your player base. Help make Tamer better for PvP. Because some people are just rerolling now, they are forced to change because they have no hope of Tamer ever being noticed or even cared about, but you can make it happen PA.
     
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  11. DecoyDuck

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    I spar with a tamer constantly, ill be honest it seems like you just don't know how tamer plays. I-frames are way less impressive than sorc's, the pet is far from a "indestructible stunning machine" (literally cant keep up with jogging speed, move around), the mobility (especially coming from a DK, lol) is mid pack at best, and the pet dying in water i dont think affects pvp hardly at all, its just a quality of life thing. I will say the 100% is super strong, but that's really all she had going for her on large scale.

    Tamer is very tricky to play and the kicker is once someone knows tamers tricks, they are very easy to avoid. Even as a non-tamer main I couldn't believe the nerf she got. The tamer I spar with is constantly trying to re-roll to other classes but loves the play-style of tamer. She was in a decent spot before these most recent nerfs.

    I'd recommend finding a good tamer on the tamer discord to spar with for an hour or more and you'd be amazed the difference between how well you do when you start fighting them compared to when you wrap up. Stay mobile, and don't walk into the traps, it'll make it very hard for the Tamer to cc you at all and you have to adjust your cc chains to move between each attack so the dog doesn't eat you. Every class plays different (for the most part) so if you fight all of them the same way, you'll do great against some classes, and assume some are overpowered as you seem to just do worse against them in general.
     
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  12. Sentionauts

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    The entire reason I play BDO is tamer pvp. It's been my focus for years. In large scale I've never been very relevant, every so often I'll BSR allround spinner where it's useful and that's the biggest contribution, when I'm not doing that I roam around the outskirts of battles hoping to find loners to attack. In open world pvp I usually win 1v1 fights and sometimes can win 1v2~ fights. It took a lot of practice to get to that point and the APM is higher than most other classes(all of which I've practiced with to some extent to understand them better for pvp reasons). This is what I've learned in the last week where I spent most of it as usual doing tamer pvp.

    -In LS I've gone from not too relevant to completely irrelevant. Forward guard is suddenly vanishing, combos that used to finish people fairly consistently are now fairly consistently leaving HP left, and now people are consistently surviving BSR allround spinner. Tamer has pisspoor ranged and AoE skills so the damage nerf hurts even more than classes with good range/AoE.
    -I've been losing open world fights a lot, even 1v1s, sometimes to people who very visibly aren't anywhere near as well practiced as I am, due to their HP bar still existing after combos and mine suddenly vanishing pretty quick just like my forward guard.
    -I'm committed enough to the class that my season character is also a tamer, where I always duel challenge people who overlap my rotations. Pre-nerf as expected of someone playing their main class as a season character I won every duel with few exceptions. Now I'm suddenly losing duels to people who even more visibly don't know what they are doing, purely based on damage dealt vs received. I'm in the 235 bracket too which is relatively high for season servers.

    This is just my report on actual pvp experience since the nerfs. Before I was very, very strong in 1v1 and very weak in LS, and I thought this was the entire purpose of the class and I accepted it and even liked that spot it was in, due to how much I enjoy open world pvp. Now even after tweaking some combos with the new damage system I feel significantly less confident in 1v1 but things are still manageable, zero confidence in 1vX, and negative confidence in large scale. Nerfing resonance/trembling/spinner and further giving tamer the short end of the stick on class damage adjustment has made 1v1 even more high-finesse with an even higher APM, where I find myself shuffling in carpal tunnel inducing skills that I know most tamers aren't going to use just for an extra sliver of damage. If tamer is going to have any relevance in large scale, it either needs something dumb like BSR allround spinner, or it needs consistently functional iframes and consistent/more super armors(and still some more damage due to short range and small AoE attacks). Unlike a lot of tamers I personally am completely fine with the dog, it has some quirks but there is a learning curve to managing it and its quirks and CC hucking is part of what draws me to the class as I enjoy dynamic elements like that in any kind of pvp game. But nerfing damage so heavily on a class that has puny LS relevance and no ranged/AoE attacks is baffling. Were people really asking for this? Maybe there's a different meta in the part of the world where opinions have more weight but I don't see people complaining much about tamer on NA/EU servers.

    The absolute state of Tamer as I see it at least makes me feel like it can't get any worse. I'm at the point of the game where people generally focus on large scale and that doesn't look feasible at all for me now, it's very discouraging. I just managed to get back into BDO after a hiatus, I got some really nice gear upgrades and was feeling better than I ever had in large scale. It felt good to finally be able to feel like I'm accomplishing something in large scale as tamer. That rug got torn out from under me and now I'm just going to afk lifeskill for a while before probably returning to my hiatus if nothing gets repaired in the near future.
     
  13. Karma555

    Karma555 Tamer 63 NA

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    Wow. I thought this was just me. Before the nerfs I felt quite confident in an open world 1v1 situation. But now when I duel people 20 gs lower than me, I have to put on my tryhard hat and not mess up a single iframe. SA trading has become a no-no, since I blow up now before I can out dps my opponent.

    I wondered if it was just me having confidence issues in PvP, but I see that it's affected other tamer players as well.

    On a side note, I went to a therapist the other day for something routine. After inspecting me for a few moments, she asked if I suffered a shoulder injury - my right shoulder was inflammed.

    Her: "Do you work a lot with computers?"

    Me on the inside: "No... I just play Tamer..."
     
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  14. Monkey D.

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  15. LeMiau

    LeMiau Tamer 63 NA

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    This class literally kills my hands (arthritis lol) But I love it so much... which brings the whole APM of Tamer; We have to pump out a disproportional amount of skills for damage than some other classes do.

    I have (for my own pvp knowledge/benefit) tried DK, Witch, Kuno, Sorc, Valk and Mystic. I've also dabbled with Striker when it came out, and with exception to Valk (the switch from Tamer keys to Valk keys messed me up) I found it much easier to pull dps and mobility. The difference in the utility with the kit is just crazy of a world difference; I honestly felt really miffed how much easier of a time other classes can have at getting a good amount of dps with very little knowledge of the class; that their class lets them get away with that. I could literally spam two or three skills with some sort of i-frame or SA weaved in-between and I would be okay.

    This is not a jab or reflection of the classes I mentioned, this means that even with my minimal understanding of these classes, I was able to have an easier time of things. I was pretty discouraged. Tamer? I've watched so many videos, read guides, asked questions on Tamer discord, tried to frankenstien all sorts of combos... and I still get my ass handed to be promptly at times lol

    I've invested years in this class, which apparently is what PA wants, and not us re-rolling flavor of the month, yet Tamers got a massive boot to ass for this. (Not dismissing other classes who have also gotten this neglect, but this thread is about us ;_; )

    But just like someone said before; once someone learns your tells, animations, what it means when a Tamer raises her hand, etc, she is actually very easy to counter. Honestly I think the main reason anyone would say qqOP is probably because there aren't that many of us to spar, so opportunities of learning what it is we actually do, is few and far between. I almost hate telling my friends when they duel me, what it is they died to because now I can't use it that well to bait anymore ... hmmph.

    I really want to keep playing bdo, especially my Tamer, and so do the rest of us. I hope the devs get their rears out of their butts and actually do something proactive and address this as well.

    Re: Heidel Ball- I really do believe only two devs actually play this game now...
     
  16. WhySoSeeryus

    WhySoSeeryus Wizard 64 EU

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    Sturdy enough to close in and grab or ult
     
  17. DecoyDuck

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    I get this feeling almost every week when I read the patch notes. Some balance changes are nice but most of them make me wonder if any of the devs play this game in a competitive capacity at all. I don't think I've ever seen anyone complain about tamer being op unless they were mindlessly walking into voids which is pretty self-explanatory...

    On a side note, the Tamer I spar with and I made trial characters to test the damage differences now. I made a Musa and she made a Tamer. With Musa I hit F, Shift+F, F and got a kill. Consistently. IIRC it took the trial tamer (with good rng on hits and dmg) 7 abilities to kill and without good luck it was usually 9 abilities sometimes even 11 leaving tamer pretty much out of one combo territory without a decent amount of luck. I understand that some classes are just going to be easier to use than others, but these two classes feel like they are from different f******g games entirely. I just don't get where the nerf came from.
     
    #77 DecoyDuck, Jul 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2020
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  18. Sadalsuud

    Sadalsuud Tamer 62 EU

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    It doesn't matter if the tamer dies before she could reach her target. Don't forget that an important part of our problem here lies in our mass scale role.

    Not giving up, I thought I made this point clear. But the recent changes are simply the moment when we dare to say "guys, that's enough now".
    Not talking about intimidation as it is part of a previous patch, please focus on this recent patch. Changes have been made by batches of skills, barely comparable to intimidation's change, and they don't heavily shift the balance for one skill or another, or create new revolutionary combos.

    So, enough, but we're not talking about giving up. That's exactly the contrary.
     
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  19. EsperansaG

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    they kill my tamer, the ultimate is the only thing good for massive pvp
     
  20. heavencleanse

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    i hope what we are saying is being heard, not just that we are saying something is being acknowledged

    the GMs and devs probably get lots of feedback about class balance all the time, including players of strong classes asking to be even stronger. but this is different and our message has been quite consistent, so let's hope we get at least some attention on a substantial level
     
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